Take this with a big grain of salt given it was written by Larry Summers who, it could be argued, helped to create some of today’s economic problems.
Americans have traditionally been the most enthusiastic champions of capitalism. Yet a recent American public opinion survey found that just 50 per cent of people had a positive opinion of capitalism while 40 per cent did not. The disillusionment was particularly marked among young people 18-29, African Americans and Hispanics, those with incomes under $30,000 and self-described Democrats.
[…]
So how justified is disillusionment with market capitalism? This depends on the answer to two critical questions. Do today’s problems inhere in today’s form of market capitalism or are they subject to more direct solution? Are there imaginable better alternatives?
Capitalism is the only true path to freedom.
Crony Capitalism is not.
Hear hear…
My opinion on the political setup in this country is well known here, son I’m not going into it again.
STOP SETTING UP POLITICAL CLIQUES KNOWN AS PARTIES.
Its now no different than it was in the days of Boss Tweed and Tammany Hall, except the numbers have grown HUGE.
It would be hard to find poor in any system liking that system. As for young – education system in which they intentionally do such things as “nobody wins” sports and ban grading with red pen (even at the major University where I work),… can’t produce many loving the society based or ruthless competition.
Question is – how many of those people can grasp fact that other systems have not and would not produce MS or Apple but Trabants and lines for bread. That is hard because no one of them lived in Socio-Communism and propaganda is strong.
Here comes the fancy words. But words won’t make the 99% feel very comfortable right now. All people want to to is work for a living. If they can’t do that then it’s time to try something different, something that works for them. A look around and you can see what is working for others and makes you wonder if it will work for you too. Are we really free? How much freedom does a poor person really have? Are we free to starve? Is this what capitalism is all about? Too many questions and not enough answers.
All people want to to is work for a living.
Not all of them. I agree that the majority of them do, but there is a segment that would prefer to live off the labor and intelligence of their fellow man. They have this unexplainable opinion that the government owes them a living. I have never understood that opinion but it does exist.
How much freedom does a poor person really have?
How much do they want? Better yet, why is the person poor to start with? Did they fall into the “welfare” trap? Are they lazy? Are they lacking in sufficient mental or physical faculties to make anything of themselves? Too many questions and not enough answers.
Are we free to starve?
False dichotomy.
The Constitution does not guarantee Equality of Outcome, only Equality of Opportunity, the right to Pursue Happiness. You have to catch it yourself.
How much do they want? Better yet, why is the person poor to start with? Did they fall into the “welfare” trap? Are they lazy? Are they lacking in sufficient mental or physical faculties to make anything of themselves? Too many questions and not enough answers.
Generally people are poor because their parents were poor. To succeed in a capitalist society you need to have things that other people want. A wealthy person is born with that. Further they have access to the best schools so that if they actually do need to work for a living, they can get the best education. Plus their families have connections with the best companies or even own one or two.
A poor person has none of that. Their only ticket out is a unique talent or abilities. Public education and union jobs for unskilled workers offered hope for a few decades but now that is being undone.
Unskilled workers now have few job opportunities because unskilled workers overseas are cheaper.
Capitalism actually depends on having a pool of unemployed workers. Remember 15 or so years ago when economists were freaking out about the tight labor market? There was a huge fear that it would lead to uncontrolled inflation.
Their only ticket out is a unique talent or abilities.
Bullshit. They have many tickets out. Unless they are invalids, there are many more options for poor than people like to hear about because it brings their worldview crashing down.
I could give you dozens of stories of people I know who were poorer than dirt farmers and managed to make a better life for themselves.
And so could I. But for every one of those who pulled themselves up by the bootstraps, I could give you 10 who worked hard and were loyal, trustworthy, competent, and while not brilliant, at least not stupid, who will wind up worse than their parents.
As I’ve known both the financially successful and the not so successful, there are a lot of factors in play, including but not limited to: starting place, attitude, physical appearance, willingness to screw others, both figuratively and sexually, and, a big, big dose of luck or lack of it.
I used to buy into the Randian, Horatio Alger version of capitalism, but my 49 years on this planet, watching and listening, over and over and over again what actually happens has lead me to modify that.
Yes, there are those who are just plain lazy. They deserve what they get. Except, a lot of them get $$$$$. Why exactly is that?
Sure. Drug trafficking and prostitution are often options for poor people but I don’t know how well it pans out for most of them.
There are people who manage to move up the food chain but for every dozen you might know that have managed that, there are thousands that haven’t.
Think about it. How many jobs are there out there for an unskilled laborer that will pay a living wage?
Name some.
They do exist but there aren’t enough of them to go around. More and more of them move over seas or are done by machines.
What if you don’t have a car? How do you get to work? How do you pay for day care? Many of the service level jobs that poor people end up in are not 9-5, they’re after hours or overnights.
Who is taking care of their kids? Who’s making sure their kids are doing and understanding their homework?
My kids do pretty well in school but frankly my son would be struggling at least in a couple of subjects if we as parents didn’t stay engaged. What if we had to work nights to make ends meet?
A high school education used to be enough to get you a decent if not great paying job. That’s quickly changing. Now you need a college education, – which isn’t free and is becoming increasingly expensive. The system is seriously broken.
Capitalism works only when the vast majority of the population feels they’re getting a decent shake. That feeling is disappearing.
Unskilled labor that pays a living wage?
LMAO!
None!
Sounds like you think the government owes them a living because they didn’t choose to get some skills.
Actually, you sound like my oldest daughter. She thought she she didn’t have to get any training to find a good job out of HS. She did get offered a 50k/yr job working in an office. I told her she might end up doing the things that big football player wanted her to do. She got mad at me, took the job and quit one week later when she found out I was right. She decided to get some training and is doing alright now.
Life isn’t fair. It’s a high tech world we live in. If you don’t have a marketable skill, you will end up riding the back of a garbage truck the rest of your life.
There are trade schools aplenty. There are community colleges all over the place. There are public universities with VERY reasonable tuition schedules. There are plenty of opportunities out there if they would just look. Expecting to flip burgers for a living wage is a pipe dream.
Sounds like you think the government owes them a living because they didn’t choose to get some skills.
Actually, you sound like my oldest daughter. She thought she she didn’t have to get any training to find a good job out of HS. She did get offered a 50k/yr job working in an office. I told her she might end up doing the things that big football player wanted her to do. She got mad at me, took the job and quit one week later when she found out I was right. She decided to get some training and is doing alright now.
I’m glad to hear she’s doing fine. Who paid for her living expenses while she was getting this training? You? Did she move back home? Who was or would have paid for any medical bills? Was this training free or did she (or you) have to pay for it?
Nothing wrong with you taking her back in if that’s what happened, but you have to realize that it’s much easier for both you and for her if you’re in the middle class or above rather than poor.
I don’t think the government or society owes us prosperity, but I do think we should educate people enough that they can support themselves above the poverty line. If a high school education isn’t enough anymore than at least the first couple of years of college should be at no cost.
In my opinion though, if you’re working full time, you should make a living wage. Companies that are building products using low skilled labor halfway across the globe and then shipping the products here should pay the real costs of doing business in that manor, – including covering the cost of the environmental damage they’re causing.
If we made them do that, then producing locally and paying decent wages might happen.
Right now we expect students to spend a ton of money on college. They’re in debt up to their nose before they’ve even got a job. If they do manage to get a job they spend a significant chunk of their income just paying of the debt.
Huh. Not that much different than share cropping when you come to think of it.
People would favor capitalism if they actually experienced it but instead we get no bid government contracts, too big to fail zero interest loans to banks, and failing automotive and airline bailouts and any checks and balances that capitalism would provide for taking excessive risk and lavishing executives with compensation is mitigated by a government bent on getting their campaign dollars.
Young people are more liberal than Older people.
Poor people don’t find capitalism as rewarding as rich people.
Situation normal.
As for a 50-fold increase in television prices, where does this guy shop? A 1965 RCA Color 21-inch set could be had for around $400. A 50-fold increase would mean today’s sets would cost $20,000.
In 1965, that $400 was equivalent to today’s approximately $3,000.
So the 50-fold would end up at $150,000.
But remember, this is Larry (DisCred) Summers.
Do you believe in the arcane practice of Epigenetics? Do you have a favorable opinion of Epigeneticists?
Let’s ask a bunch of kids.
People don’t realize we never lived in a true capitalist society, nor have we been living in a true democracy. Yet the media asks these asinine questions about how well/bad these things are doing when in fact they don’t exist.
Like Communism never worked since it never got past the 1st phase that Marx set up. People are inherently too greedy for a system like that to work at all. And apparently people are to greedy to let Democracy and free trade worth either.
Corruption is the only thing that seems to do anything.
All current parties could merge into the “Fukyou Party”, and we would save time and money on government services for the same net result.
Capitalism works but only in underdeveloped countries like Japan, China, Texas and India have experienced.
In the USA, large companies schemed with the perfect formula to take over the country. They called it the “Hansel and Gretel” strategy.
1) Make almost everyone fat so they lack the vigor to get off the couch. People in scooter carts at Walmart have too many doctors appointments to have their feet amputated to put up any sort of resistance.
2) Take away the “real” news. Replace with reality TV.
3) Give “fake news” talking points dictated from unelected party leaders like Soviet Union. Refusal to read results in perception of “not being team player”.
4) Create Three Stooges like grassroot leaders. Watch Palin, Newt and Perry klunk each other over head. Enjoy latest dimwit gaffe.
I don’t recall who said it but he/she is right. (I’m paraphrasing here):
Capitalism is great. The only problem is CAPITALISTS!
Think about it. Most capitalists who eventually find themselves on top almost always look for ways to close the doors behind them and prevent any more competition. And that’s because a capitalists objective is to eventually become a monopoly – or at least form an organized group with other like-minded capitalists who can then pretty much do what they want.
Unfortunately, in recent years (like the last 150) these “top dog” capitalists have also discovered that even in a free society they can still rig the game – with money! They have discovered that they can still persuade powerful individuals to enact new laws / rules which are often unfair and favor only those few capitalists. And they do it through persuasion tactics such as election contributions and lobbying (when there’s no election).
We all know that Congress-men/women rarely ever act on behalf of the people. That is, unless a lot of people are pressuring them to do otherwise. Therefore, elections and lobbying are the only powers that “we the people” also have. It’s sort of a double-edge sword when you think about it.
But “we the people” are now on the loosing end and loosing it almost every day. And we can only blame ourselves! Partly for not voting. But we’re really loosing it when we patronize (buy stuff from) these evil powerful mega companies who grease the palms of our elected officials.
So if you object to new proposed laws like SOPA then stop purchasing any more music or videos. And if you don’t like large banks taking your tax dollars to help “bail them out” then stop banking with them (try a credit union). Because that’s where they get their money – FROM YOU!
(BTW, You don’t need to use a credit card either! Try cash or using a check instead. Because if we all stopped or reduced our lazy credit card habits then these a-hole bankers might just get the message.)
Remember: if you’re not part of the solution then you’re probably part of the problem.
Capitalism IS WORKING – for the capitalists – and NO ONE ELSE !!! They OWN THE GOVERNMENT, so any Anti-Trust, Pro-Competitive, and simple fraud prohibitions are NO LONGER ENFORCED !!! So our “Republic” has become FASCIST – WHICH MUSSOLINI TOLD US WAS THE COMBINATION OF THE CORPORATE POWER WITH THE STATE POWER AND THE ***ELIMINATION OF ANY INPUT FROM LABOR*** !!! So the Capitalists rule – less taxes (or no taxes) for them, with INCREASING TAXES AND “FEES” ON THE MIDDLE CLASS – WHAT IS LEFT OF IT !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVh75ylAUXY&feature=player_embedded
The goal of Communists is to make things worse so they can denigrate capitalism.
Let me give you an example of how capitalism favors the rich. My mother in law grew up in an upper-middle class family. She married a working stiff, – my father in law. She expected to live the lifestyle she was accustomed to. My father in-law worked 2 or 3 jobs at a time in a vain attempt to keep her happy. He got sick and basically couldn’t keep it up any more. It ended badly. They divorced. My mother in-law died young, – pretty much penniless. My father in-law has been in ill health for the last 15 years.
My wife’s uncle (my mother in-law’s brother) became a real-estate lawyer and married into a wealthy family. This family helped him start up several businesses one of which finally succeeded. Their 3 kids (all boys) never did particularly well in school. One got a girl pregnant in his late teens. He started a business using some of his parent’s money that eventually failed. The two other sons got married and each was divorced within a year.
The other two sons also tried their hand at their own careers and ended up failing. Now they all 3 work for their parents and will be taking over the family business.
There’s so much talk on the republican side about how people should be rewarded for taking financial risks. But it’s much easier to take risks when you have a rich family who’s going to bail you out if things don’t pan out.
I look at my wife’s cousins who basically are wealthy and will continue to be wealthy, not because they are talented or work particularly hard, it’s because their parents have money. Don’t get me wrong, they’re generally good, generous people and they do work. I don’t begrudge them anything. But they got what they got by virtue of who their parents were.
Absolutely agree, but not any more. In fact we are seeing the wealthy non-1 per centers about to lose all they have.
Welcome to the bottom of the pyramid.
Previously, if you have money the world’s your oyster.
Ever read the book ‘poor dad rich dad’ by some kawaski cretin.
He goes on about how he made a fortune putting rich dad’s money into the property market. Of course now that the tram has reached the top of the hill what are you going to do kawaski kid?
No for a long while money was easily increased, if you had it.
NO MORE. The tram has reached the terminus.
“There is no, and never has been, any true xyz.” /// True enough, and there never will be because life is not so simple. Any truth touching on human affairs is a struggle.
If you yearn and advocate for a pure xyz you are but a Silly Hooman===grow up. Accept the complexity of competing interests, mans wonder and his frailty. Don’t be dogmatic.
Can you hear me?
Yea, verily.
This crony capitalism thing?
Just one challenge. Did cronyism exist when USA was just doing fine?
My take is that it always has.
The disease we face today is simply and only the separation of production from consumption.
That will not be fixed ANY time soon. Factories will not open in USA as those with power will not employ humans on middle class wage rates.
Their own magnificent managerial genius of course is worth a fortune, despite any ‘fluctuations’ in outcomes.
We are facing the reality of the massive global imbalance never experienced in mankind’s two thousand years of living off the land.
It think the unwinding will be slow, not the cliff face catastrophes most predict. This is because cost of living will drop as people squat or life in tent villages, plus the residial food wealth that the grain store of the world can provide. Hint this infrastructure did not exist during the depression.
I like Kunstler’s take on the ‘world made by hand’ scenarios. Global trading will drop off the cliff. Too bad for countries like mine NZ.
Factories will not open in USA as those with power will not employ humans on middle class wage rates.
. . . or minimum wage.
The minimum wage is just one end of the middle class wage range.
Current human resource cost is what 10c an hour?
One anger point that is not being promoted is the retail margins (combining all from the factory, middlemen to shop) is probably now 99 per cent. There’s another 99 figure!!
We need employment exporting taxes to get at this 1 per center feast.
And when they give the mantra of ‘protectionism’ counter-point, just ask them who are they protecting.
Two things:
1. Separate investment and commercial banking. Mixing the two is deadly.
2. Recognise that US politics has become a money making industry.
Believe it or not, this is a minor side effect that could easily be righted over a couple of decades.
Sovereign debt of the global imbalance and the dissappearance of the money pored into the bond black holes is the killer.
Even the ridiculous betting of the derivatives market could be written off easily across the board. Derivatives are a financial fantasy land.
The disease is separation of production from consumption, resulting in sovereign debt that will be defaulted on.
This is a true debate..
There are so many sides, and thoughts on it…
1. 50 corps OWN(from the top of the pyramid) 30% of all companies AROUND the world. The rest are owned by 100-150 other corps.
2. start killing the monopolies.
3. LET companies FIGHT..QUIT backing them up..NO MORE tax loopholes. NO other coutry gives better tax incentives.
4. if they dont like it here…GO TO WHERE YOU HAVE OUR MANUFACTURING.
5. a company should be a representative of the country they are doing business(not selling to). GO live their, if you like it so much.
6. an economist said something in the past, that was taken out of context. “that a 3% growth per year is a good thing”. but the corps didnt concern themselves with the wages at the bottom. The 3% growth was in raising PRICES(to them)..which led to HIGHER salaries(to them)..
7. FAIR MARKET VALUE…we are the only nation that does not average the price over what other nations would PAY. WE pay 4-10 times the amount for ANY GOODS. And the corps like it.
The problem, is that the CORP is 100 people in the USA, managing a company of 1000’s in Indonesia doing the job at ABOUT 1/100th the pay scale(even in Indonesia its poverty level)…LETS ask that they be PAID an equal allowance to what a person in the USA would be paid.(which would make them about upper middle class in Indonesia)
8. regulations..
REALLY want some fun. REQUIRE companies in this NATION, to have the SAME DEQ/NAFTA/..safety/health/pollution regulations, as they WOULD in the USA.
We have to solve the trade imbalance. Sorry but we have to produce and consume within borders.
Products must be made by those who can buy them.
This is the bit of economics that the 1 per centers have knowingly ignored. They knew that this would end some time. They made credit available to counter this trend.
The MF Global scheme is the end game, where they steal what money there is, all legal of course. They have loop-holes for the theft. Forget about bringing justice to them. Justice is just us imposing upon their property rights, which used to be ours.
There are rules to being capitalist..
and all are forgotten.
at least NOT practiced.
Also another one, is NATIONAL and international markets are separate. NOT in the USA, anyway.
ECA–are there any “rules” to being a capitalist? The basic theory as I remember it doesn’t have any rules==just a discussion/supposition of what the framework of a market place is and how it functions and what happens when someone chooses to do one thing and what most likely will happen over time/eventually.
For instance: I don’t think a rule of capitalism is to not commit fraud, but rather that if you do, over time, the market place will reject the bad player. Certain retards who think they are able to protect themselves from such chicanery in the marketplace think that this correction after the fact is all that is needed and that any and all regulations that ACTUALLY imposes rules is nanny state interference.
Word games or substantive?
I think the most important baseline rule (if there really are any) in pure capitalism is that market forces must be allowed to do their thing. On the whole I believe most people don’t have the ability to sit back and let this happen. Thus the sticking point where we run into problems with our implementation of capitalism. Individuals, companies, unions, government agencies, churches and whoever else feel they are too invested in the outcomes to just sit back. Instead you get demands for intervention, favoritism and control, leading to the cronyism we have today.
Jolly–again, I don’t see that as a “rule” but rather simply a model of behavior and what will happen if you don’t follow certain precepts.
But to directly contest your scenario–you’ve heard of the metaphor of the market being like traffic and what would happen if there were no traffic lights, speed limits, which side of the road and so forth all to the effect that if there are no rules, or as you put it society being invested in the outcome, what you have is chaos and anarchy.
You sound like you have a dogmatic belief in the free market but are smart enough to not just come out and say it? Well, thats a starting point. Just keep readin’ and thinkin’ until you arrive at the opposite conclusion, and then you will have made the full journey: like EVERY other dogma that exists, capitalism is but a touchstone value to be considered among 459 other values in the mix of what it is to be human. Sad our politicians can only focus/commit to one issue at a time.
Same as it ever was.
WELL,
since the original idea was to create/make/have a product to sell..
Food was the first and then tools.
You started out high, expecting to debate prices, and get to the one you HOPED for.
BUT,…
There is a problem with that when you have a..
REQUIRED PRODUCT..
Virtual product..
OR if you corner the market for a specific material, thats needed.
The Difficulty comes with access and competition.
the Consumer CANT compare products. There is to much to know about the tech.
If you had a source to get a better product at an equal value, COULD/WOULD you buy it? If you had the choice between a product made of WOOD or Plastic, to hold your child in a cage…which would you choose? We have over a generation of kids/adults raised on PLASTIC. The market is besieged with product(90% of it CRAP) that it makes comparing VERY HARD.(yes the net is a great thing, if you know what you are looking for) But, as in looking for a NEW stove/frig/washer-dryer… 1 product having 6 numbers(depending on the Company that bought it) made by the same maker, is NOT the same to the Corp, when trying to get warranty.(or even trying to compare)
I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who have ever lived. an entire generation pumping gas and waiting tables; or they’re slaves with white collars. Advertisements have them chasing cars and clothes, working jobs they hate so they can buy shit they don’t need. We are the middle children of history, with no purpose or place. We have no great war, or great depression. The great war is a spiritual war. The great depression is our lives. We were raised by television to believe that we’d be millionaires and movie gods and rock stars, but we won’t. and we’re learning that fact. And we’re very, very pissed-off.
Capitalism is on its deathbed, thanks to the most greedy among us. It’s a false premise any way. To believe that there are infinite resources with which to make income is delusional in a world with now dwindling resources. If we want future generations to have anything like what we have, we have to find a new planet to exploit, recycle and share what we now have, and/or look to more renewable means of producing/using things.
I do not think this is possible, because the greedy among us will always want more, more, more, until they have it all.