truthout
Truthout’s reporting on the Army’s so-called “spiritual fitness” test was featured on Thursday by MSNBC host Keith Olbermann on Countdown.
Mikey Weinstein, president and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, discussed Jason Leopold’s report detailing the forced spiritual testing of over 800,000 uniformed soldiers as part of the Comprehensive Soldier Fitness Program.
The original report by Leopold can be viewed here.
@Greg Allen
How does what help me in hard times?
Publius nails the landing.
I had to go to Post #21 to pick up the Allan/Publius thread: “I’ve studied the Enlightenment. There was some great philosophy but there was also that bloody inconvenient French Revolution as well!” /// Ha, ha.
Well, you are only about a century behind in your thinking. Only another 80 years before you forgive Galileo?
The timing of the Enlightenment should be better placed in your mind for it formed the basis of that other pesky Revolution: The American One. You know: freedom from Religion? Inalienable rights? Yes, The Sun King was torn over supporting the common rabble.
The Enlightenment: you don’t have to pay a church official for magic words to give your loved one’s safe passage into heaven. You live, you die: just like the universe. One universe, one death. Much better than having to pay off 197 different denominations all claiming the ultimate truth and all in conflict with one another.
Yea, veerily.
“temporal consciousness”
We leave behind the sum of our good and bad works.
These last as long as their magnitudes justify.
It is ego that wishes for more.
I need only exist in the interval of my time.
# 20 Greg Allen said, “than the bug that hit my windshield on the way home from work.”
Greg, I think you’re being sincere, not trolling. But I am going to troll you in response.
I believe my life is more significant than that bug because, first, I can appreciate life and love and everything that makes this world a wonderful place to live. I can even appreciate the things that make it a miserable place to live.
I believe my life is more significant than that bug because in some small way, my life has affected other people, often making them feel better, sometimes easing their way out of this existence,usually leaving them better off than if they had not met me. (NB: my ex-wives might disagree.)
Now, let me ask you a question: don’t you ever get tired of praying to an invisible guy-in-the-sky and not getting an answer? I gotta agree with Foobar in #30: If god existed, it would be so easy for him/her/it to prove it. Simple way? Appear in the sky amidst lightning and thunderbolts, station an angel at every intersection to enforce silence while he tells us how tired he is of our errant ways. “Oh, and by the way, I want you to all to be Mormons!” When that happens, I’m going to stop getting divorced but keep on marrying.
Of course, if god is Mormon, Foobar won’t be buying him a beer…
#4 So you hate Christians? Seems to be the in prejudice for the non thinkers at the present so why not you?
You also seem to blind to the obvious observation that a lot of other religions exist and offer a base of support for their adherents.
Speaking of how pervasive religion is in the military, I can’t recall the last event I’ve been to that didn’t have an opening prayer. We even have some anonymous holy roller at work who is nice enough to leave his silly “you’re going to hell” pamphlets in the head.
since spirituality has nothing to do with god or religion, i’d say it was stillborn on inception.
add to that, religion’s goal to destroy the spiritual aspect and replace it with..religion, -makes the “test” even more absurd.
seems like a crude “crusade recruitment tool” to enforce the “my god is better than your god..BOOM” crowed.
absurd.
-s
I for one, welcome our new spiritually healthy super warriors.
Godly Warriors
I find it humorous that professional killers feel the need to be religious.
Might they be feeling a bit guilty?
Especially when the killing is called upon to accomplish politically motivated goals.
The Spear.
All of us exist on the metaphorical spear.
The President is the pointy tip, followed by the chain of command back towards the shaft. The civilians that make up the shaft; it is as strong as they are resolute.
However, it is the individual soldier that thrusts the spear into a single man, woman or child.
God invented the spear.
Animby: Rule #1 about golfing with Mormons.
Always go golfing with two Mormons. If you golf with one Mormon he will drink all your beer.
Animby,
Your meaning of life sounds suspiciously faith-based! It’s not grounded in any rationality that I can detect. Just a temporal sense of connectedness which then quickly disappears.
Didn’t Bobbo once use the tagline, “The universe is meaningless and then you die.”
This is not a Christian caricature of atheism — it is the rational conclusion of atheism, right?
(Contrast this with your atheist’s shallow caricature of Christianity.)
What about the atheist’s view of the universe provides a support? The rational atheist response to suffering could just as easily be — blow your head off and bring on the inevitable oblivion to stop the pain.
And no, I’m not trolling. Atheists often give me insults and crap about it. Am I not allowed to ask a hard-but-legitimate question about atheism?
Sorry I can’t answer (or read) all the responses to my posts. I’m going to be away from the computer for awhile.
O have to ironically conclude that some of you atheists agree that atheism is _NOT_ a support for returning soldiers!
You take your sense of meaning and support from other things — especially family. Maybe work. Maybe beauty. Supports that religious people have as well.
If that’s the case, then atheism should _not_ be listed on a survey of support for returning soldiers.
Greg #44 – You havfe asked me a question again but have chosen to ignore mine. I’ll answer yours: atheism does not provide a support system for me. It does encourage me to look for solutions to my problems and do what I can to work through them. It means I have to depend on myself. Not angels. I am responsible for my life.
Now, my question to you was: Don’t you ever get discouraged praying to your omniscient being and being ignored? Other than taking your tithes, what has god ever done for you personally? Oh, you might say he gave you the strength to see a family member through a terrible illness. Do you doubt an atheist would have had that strength?
Well, I could go on but it seems useless since you won’t be around to reply.
I see Greg Allan never gets an answer to his question because he never reads the answers. Ha, ha. so phoney these religious types, even the “good ones” like Greg.
I hit the “struggle” with exhaustive detail to my own story (TMI?–no, it was my eulogy) but didn’t address as directly the “atheism” as a support system. Animby addressed that quite successfully.
Indeed the universe is a meaningless place – and then we die. Its definitional. I do hope everyone, including the religious take to heart there is a difference in being “self aware” vs being a bug. The “we are to god as a bug is to us” is a religious take on the universe.
Its what “existential” philosophy is all about: finding meaning. I will sidestep the catechism trusting those who are actually interested have read/will read as they wish.
There is direct comfort in atheism/existentialism though. The suffering of those dying is understood as that “self awareness” that on death means nothing to the dead and is but an example to the living. Its fun to ask, as I always do, sometime belatedly: “if you don’t like this outcome, what is your answer to make it better?” When nothing else can possibly/or in reality make it better, isn’t that a comfort? What is is and we make our way thru it to the end with what we have as best we can? I think so.
Mom died. Would it be better if she lived forever?=No. Lived until she got tired of it? Well, she already had. Lived a life with less pain from the shingles?===Yea Verily but that life was not what reality delivered. I take comfort that any situation could be a whole lot worse==I try not to focus on the fact that life is made more painful than it need be. Sanity involves lots of diverted attention. Ha, ha.
Thinking you have your finger on the truth gives comfort to everyone whether the truth be science, pink unicorns, or a meaningless abyss. We are all the same yet different on all these issues.
A friend of mine was drafted during the Vietnam War. And tried to apply for C.O. status. But not refusing to serve. Just refusing to kill. He had some medical training, already. So he volunteered to be a medic. The Army might have granted his request. But they refused when he told them he couldn’t swear that he would persuade the wounded to return to the action. So the Army conveniently lost all his C.O. paperwork, and tried to railroad him into combat.
They questioned his religious beliefs, for applying for C.O., by saying his family’s church bible had the crest of the Crusader Shield, with a cross on it. And since the Crusades were all about war. He could use his religion to justify not fighting in the war. This is apparently the full extent of the military’s understanding and/or appreciation of religion. It’s all symbols and names to them. No real meaning is ever allowed to conflict with service’s polices and goals.
And the major religions, in the US military, are all super sanitized from expressing anything spiritual that might discourage fighting or hating the enemy. So this so-called “Spiritual Testing” is a sham. They ought to be testing the top brass’ morality, rather than the lower ranks’. But I’m sure that even if some testing is going on, up at the top, it’s a completely different test from the rest of the personnel.
What the military labels as “spiritual” very likely means that they consider themselves as God. And they’re testing how loyal and devoted the common solders are to the God of war. Why do I sense another draft coming, soon?
I was in the Air Force what seems like a lifetime ago. Spent time in Kuwait under Desert Storm orders (though I find it comical that my service ribbons doc sheet conveniently lost that minor detail)
But, I digress… And to make sure you understand my viewpoint in this discussion, I have always considered myself agnostic in regards to religion. Neither the extremes of the Athiest, and the Religious make no sense to me.
In any case, what I recall the most beneficial part of having Chaplains in the service was they fell outside the chain of command. It may not be the case now, me being out of the service almost 18 years now.
But, at the time it was critical to your career. If you ever needed any kind of mental health council, including marriage or work stress. (Imagine work stress, sitting out in the freaking desert with idiots dropping missiles in your lap…)
So, every commander prompted the enlisted to utilize the medical support systems to help keep the stress and trauma from overtaking you. Problem was, these same healthcare people were required to report all details of your medical history to the commander if he so desired. And, if he then desired, he could use that information to run you out of the service, or deny your promotion, essentially ending your career.
BUT— If you went to the chaplain with the same problems, and got help through him/her they could not be forced to divulge any of the conversations to the base commander, or any of your superiors. So, you got the help, maybe only someone to talk to, but the help of some sort. Without the fear that the pure act of asking for help wouldnt end your career.
I guess it takes a certain level of “Spirituality” to NAPALM WOMEN AND CHILDREN !!!
Go Army !!!