My feeling is that it’s good when it means that we put our interests above everyone else’s, but bad when it leads to unnecessary wars and economic sanctions. What do you guys think?
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Patriotism is the new speak for tribalism really. It is often used as something undefined and above and intangible, but demanded as a character to be considered not only acceptable but required.
Patriotism, nationalism, tribalism are good for identity and social bonding and used positively is a unifying purpose against outside enemies of all sorts.
Used wrongly we can end up in all kinds of mischiefs; Stalin used patriotism for the building of the ‘motherland’; Adolf Hitler used it for building the ‘fatherland’ with God on his side; Mao Tse Dong used it for the deification of himself’ so no need for God.
Patriotism can be a very strong tool for totalitarians to kill the subjects to question authority. Leave patriotism to develop unrestricted and democracy, free speech and rule of law will easily be set aside for a ‘higher good’.
I think we have seen examples of that lately…
Patriotism is never wrong. It’s a respect for your country at its purest level.
When Patriotism leads into extremism and nationalist activities, it is used as the scapegoat for those beliefs, and an excuse.
If you are not proud of your country and its citizens in the general sense, you really shouldn’t be a citizen. End of story.
Patriotism is not exclusive to supporters, it can also be expressed by dissenters of the status quo.
I do not deny other citizens their Patriotism if they disagree with me. I deny their correctness, and try to lead them to the better decision; if they question MY Patriotism in the process then we have nothing to talk about.
Patriotism is not exclusive of humanism. I and others can be extreme Humanists and still be Patriots as well. Supporting your fellows isn’t anti-human, it’s a natural state for us. It becomes an issue when you take that Patriotism and demote others to non-humanity for their differences.
btw, I consider Patriotism and Nationalism to be two very distinct states.
Patriotism, to me, doesn’t exclude other states but just expresses a happiness and proudness in your fellows and their accomplishments without dismissing others’.
Nationalism, to me, is the view that your country or state is above all others regardless of the facts or other states’ accomplishments.
#9 Bobbo – Ideas? Links?
Slavery had recently been ruled illegal in England and there were campaigns to extend this law to the colonies.
If they stayed with the British Empire the rich landowners would have had to give up their slaves and so much of their farming wealth. Financially this meddling would have been a far bigger greivance for them than anything spelt out in the declaration.
Maybe it’s always best to convince yourself and others you are acting for noble reasons and brush-over your main financial motivation.
Germany had a famous Patriot, his name was Adolf Hitler…
I don’t really think I need to go any further.
Patriotism is a tool used by others to control you. Just say no.
Patriotism is just a form of tribalism which is probably an instinctual survival mechanism.
So yes, patriotism can be “ok.” If the chief of your tribe chooses to go to war, you can either go with him, or risk losing face/status which was associated with death in the olden days. Most people’s survival mechanism dictates that subconsciously they want to be part of the group/nation and go with the leader.
Everyone here that deplores Patriotism probably is a rare minority that “thinks for themselves.” Thinking for yourself is not necessarily a survival trait in a hostile world. Plentiful food, longer lives, and other luxuries have given rise to “thinkers.” Take away your nation’s food and see how soon tribalism really takes hold again.
That’s why global warming is preferable to global cooling, btw. You don’t want 400 million hungry europeans… They get grouchy.
I don’t know, but I do know that Jonah Goldberg possesses the intellect of a 12-year-old. So I’m not likely to watch the video. Just sayin’.
My patiotism is awesome. But it’s too good for the rest of you wankers. Happy 4th!
A very happy 4th of July to all you Americans.
#33: “If you are not proud of your country and its citizens in the general sense, you really shouldn’t be a citizen. End of story.”
Wrong, bucko.
If you are are a citizen and not proud of your country, it’s time to kick the jerks out of office that believe the above quote. Citizenship is all about making the country where you live a better place for everyone.
In the movie Paths of Glory Kirk Douglas quotes Samuel Johnson as saying “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”
I’m with Kirk on this one.
#2 – yes we do have a 4th of July in Canada. We celebrate it on July 1st – to commemorate the day we became an independent country – after we filled out the appropriate forms, had it all checked out by our lawyers, and submitted the filing fee. We got notification of independence 3 to 6 weeks later. The documents are available for public viewing at the central documents repository, during regular office hours.
#35–interglacial==THANK YOU, very much. First time I have ever gotten an answer on point.
Course a consistent time line is not “proof.” I assume in all the letters written at the time there must be a few that state the concerns you have summarized.
It does make sense. It is in fact the reason I have come to, using hooman psychology not history, to resolve how our liberty loving Founding Fathers could declare universal human freedom yet keep slaves.
Yes, money/wealth the gaining and keeping thereof is the root and body of many evils.
Again, interglacial==I will direct my attention to what you surmise and see how it may be supported/supplemented/contradicted in “the record” if it hasn’t been scrubbed already?
Thank you.
Speaking of patriotism, new verses found in the Star Spangled Banner (from the Onion).
Bobbo,
Thanks for the thanks and apologies for the paucity of information I gave with the link.
I’m in no way a scholar of history so can’t give you any proof. Your post just reminded of an article or documentary I saw years ago about slavery and Somersett’s Case. The ties to the War of Independence was only mentioned in passing and I’ve been surprised ever since that it gets no attention.
Just done a bit of searching and unfortunately it looks like someone has beaten you to writing a book on the subject called Slave Nation: How Slavery United The Colonies And Sparked The American Revolution.
I almost bought it but I think I’d find it too depressing – reading some Thomas Paine would be far more personally uplifting.
If you’re a blogger, NEVER allow ourself to be photographed with a Dr. Pepper in our hand. There’s just no overcoming that geek-factor.
>> TThor said, on July 3rd, 2010 at 11:58 pm
>> Patriotism is the new speak for tribalism really.
HEALTHY patriotism is a positive national self-image. This is a good thing.
Countries with collective inferiority complexes tend to over-compensate, project on to others, be aggressive, be hyper-sensitive, etc. (just like individuals)
People and countries with healthy self-images are NOT jerks.
They don’t go around bragging how they are the greatest in the world.
They don’t go around saying how bad other countries are.
They aren’t happy when other countries fail.
Julianne Malveaux,”I don’t celebrate the Fourth of July, I read Frederick Douglass”
but don’t you dare call her unpatriotic.
I’ll address the video question, which is why are people posting without watching it? It takes too long! Everyone knows that most verbal discourse contains way more words than meaning. The point of written reporting is to reduce that discourse to it’s salient points, which typically can be summed up in a sentence or perhaps two. As the Internet improves technically, it’s content becomes decreasingly relevant. We all know this so we’re skipping it. It’s easy to post 10 minutes worth of babble, but it takes brains to extract meaning from it, and writing skills to expose it. And, no one pays for these skills anymore.
As for patriotism, well, it’s hard to be patriotic, even for a great nation such as ours (US) when the bulk of your leadership (poltical and otherwise) is SO incompetent. All of the woes we suffer today are the direct result of incompetence at all levels of western society. And we likely don’t even recognize competence when we see it. We certainly don’t reward it anymore, so nothing is likely to change in this generation.
Patriotism will show from those who manage to find a way to overcome this.