Should we always side with Israel? Is Israel always right?
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In direct answer to the headline question: No, but this is not one of the times we should disagree.
Think of the hypothetical US response to an incessant stream of rockets launched into San Diego from Tijuana if the Federales did nothing to stop them.
The larger question might be, Should Israel adopt Hamas’ cynicism and just bomb the Gaza Strip indiscriminately?
Short answer….. Yes…
Just the question alone makes me laugh! It amuses me that a population that suffered the horrors of countless persecutions and murders now willingly commits atrocities. Well, amuse is incorrect. It’s a rueful laugh at best. Well, if you believe in an eye for an eye, the violence will never end.
The simple and correct answer is NO.
America is perfectly placed to “solve” the problems only if they are seen to be even handed. The USA must, can and should broker peace in the Middle East. This will mean both sides giving up a great deal but that is the only road to peace.
America should also decide if they should continue to be influenced by powerful lobby’s within it’s own borders that are not in the best long term interests of America.
The calls for proportionality are humorous. If a gang throws some rocks at you and one grazes your shoulder, it would be disproportionate for you to take a gun and shoot many of them.
However, if they are throwing these rocks with intent to kill, and are doing so day after day, what would be the proper response?
# 69 MikeN said, “However, if they are throwing these rocks with intent to kill, and are doing so day after day, what would be the proper response?”
If a bunch of people lived next door to me and on a daily basis shot into my home I’d blow up their house (with everyone in it).
70,
And what if a bunch of people kicked you out of your home and said that they own it because God gave it to them. Would you walk away and bless them for being God’s people?
#71 Nope. I’d wage a war against that nations military forces.
72,
So, from your two statements both Israel and Palestine are wrong. I agree with you.
72,
I forgot to add, but you wouldn’t try and get your home back? You’d just let them go?
# 73 Named said, “So, from your two statements both Israel and Palestine are wrong. I agree with you.”
Yes.
What should have happened is that Germany should have been carved up for a Jewish homeland after WW2.
Named, learn the history of the region. The Jews were there thousands of years ago.
Even to this day I can hear lefties who think that there were no Jews in Jerusalem until 1948.
75,
Why Germany? Most western countries wouldn’t let any Jews in either.
#54 – Greg Allen
>>What I DON’T see so clearly, is why this
>>conflict is America’s business.
Hebe lobbyists. {wink} The Palestinians don’t have much of a presence on K Street.
# 77 Named said, “Why Germany?”
Are you serious? You don’t know why Germany?
79,
Well, I know WHY Germany, but most Western countries couldn’t give a rats ass for the Jews. In fact, that’s why Western countries were the cause of the problem. And, being the cynic that I am, I am sure ALL the western countries are happy to keep the jews somewhere off their pur lain land.
But, if you mean to carve up Germany as part of reparations, I don’t think that would have worked out as well as it might sounds. Afterall, what would you do with the Sephardic jews? Move them to Germany too?
And in fact, Germany has the fastest growing Jewish population in the West now.
#56–named. Hah! You site the Israeli’s blowing up the kidnap tunnel as the first punch in the current dipute but then say there was NO TUNNEL to blow up so building it was not an act of war. I would like to copyright this incongruity as “Thinking Like a Palestinian” or (T-Lap).
But returning to the “first question” of who threw the first punch. We covered that already at post #53. To recap: Hamas launched missiles, rockets, and mortars into Israel but no one was killed so this is supposed to be viewed as not a violation of the cease fire. BUT Israel blows up a tunnel, no one is killed, and that is the first punch? More T-Lap. Well Done.
I did read one article that talked about a total of around 1200 rockets being launched into Israel since Gaza was unilaterally vacated by Israel. Came out to bout 2-3 rockets per day. Yes, not all fired by Hamas but rather by “other terrorists.”
I can’t find that article now, even searching my History file, but here is less authoritative article saying Hamas launched rockets ((not that it is needed as YOUR LINK at #53 admits they launched rockets)): http://en.epochtimes.com/n2/content/view/9483/
In the end, your argument is a distraction. There is every moral authority needed to attack any government that has proclaimed it wants to “wipe you from the face of the map.” That includes Hamas, Iran, Al Quada and anyone else.
The notion that you want peace in the context of wanting to kill the other side is – – – – – – T-Lap.
Its so dysfunctional, calling it “thinking” is really misleading. I revoke my copyright, and denote this type of argument as “NOT THINKING-Just Like a Palestinian” or “NT-Jlap” (Copyright, Bobbo)
81,
One of the most important points that you miss, being 17 and all, is that it wasn’t a GOVERNMENT OPERATION that was launching the missiles. The government, Hamas, agreed to the ceasefire. Israel moved into Gaza as a government operation. See, this is a very important distinction. VERY important. When a government authorizes an action, it goes on record and becomes de facto policy. And this is from your own link…
“Hamas had promised to stop firing at Israeli civilian targets and to ensure that other groups would not fire either, while Israel promised to cease military operations in the Gaza Strip and to enable safe passage of goods between Gaza and Israel.
During the six months missiles were still fired at Israeli civilian targets, sent from terrorist organizations. The number was significantly less than before, however. Israel responded with military operations against the missile launching squads, and closed passages between Gaza and Israel. Friday Dec. 19 was the end of the six month cease fire, and intensive firing started again.”
Notice that Hamas was NOT responsible for the attacks. Other radicals were. Let me make an analogy for you;
Since Bill Clinton and the democrats were in power when Timothy McVeigh blew up the Oklahoma building, Bill Clinton and the democrats were responsible.
When Israel disengaged from Gaza, they blockaded the country… Everything was restricted… aid, food, water, electricity; from land, sea and air. That is a de facto act of war, as you yourself agree to.
So, go ahead and trademark your little quips. They’re as nonsensicle as you’re becoming. You know, I can actual see you furiously trying to put something, anything, together that could remotely challenge logic.
# 82 Named said, “One of the most important points that you miss, being 17 and all, is that it wasn’t a GOVERNMENT OPERATION that was launching the missiles.”
Bzzzt. Wrong answer McFly.
With that many rockets, in that small of an area, over that length of time, requires tacit approval of the local gov’t.
83,
The article clearly indicates “significantly less”. Sure, one is too much. But, indicative of the whole conflict is the lack of co-operation between the two sides. Both groups are waiting for an excuse, any pretext at all, to continue operations. But, when you look in context, that of an occupation by a vastly superior force and the total blockade by the occupying force, it would take a herculean effort to hold every pissed off person at bay. How many Gazans have suffered at the hands of the Israeli military through the years grew a little older and madder in time for 2008?
Can you imagine if Israel and Palestine worked together to solve these issues instead of each side on eggshells just waiting for the sound of a broken twig to start up again.
to my 85, I was of course referring to Paddy-O in 84. Bobbo, don’t get upset that I’m correcting myself.
#82–NT-Jlap==for about the third time you argue in opposition to the sources you use as your authority:
“Hamas had promised to stop firing at Israeli civilian targets AND TO ENDURE THAT OTHER GROUPS WOULD NOT FIRE EITHER”
Did you miss that, not understand that, or open up another can of NT-Jlap?
Why don’t you address the key point of relevance? Hamas from day one and right now has declared itself set on the goal of wiping Israel off the face of the map. If Hamas laid down its arms, there would be no firing. If Israel laid down its arms, there would be another Holocaust.
heh, heh, heh. I wonder if the Palestinians/Hamas/et al bring this same intellectual rigor to their tactical military planning? Hey FT-Jlap==just how high up in Hamas are you?
Heres a nice little Hitchens video on the evils of moral relativism of the sort named wishes could never be understood:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=C-B87fhzCiw&feature=related
90
Yes, they support us but we cannot control them OR condemn those actions, promise to bring the culprits to justice but do absolutely nothing.
Sounds like the Israeli settlers too!
#91–NT-Jlap===so, both sides to the debate agree that HAMAS uses proxy terrorists to violate the “peace treaty.” Further, you want to negate the clear simple meaning of “ensure” as if it actually meant “try to.”
All thats left is that your stupidity about the settlers is contested.
A full FAIL on your part==but given your position, about the best you could do.
BTW–what is your “solution” for the Israel/Palestine question? I’d love to hear it.