Mister Mustard says:

#103 – Shit

Read your own fucking sources, m’hijito. If you find anything in there about “illegal immigrants” (other than speculation and bullshit), please be sure to point it out, won’t you?

So far, I’ve found nothing.

Mr. Catshit says:

#99, “J”

These are published reports, open to discussion and refuting. Quite unlike your “private report”. Sure they might be biased. I never claimed otherwise. That does not make them wrong. I hate meth addiction. That does not mean I can’t state that meth kills people.

they claim that the driver was an illegal …

I never used that quote or commented on it. My reference was to a Virginia police comment. Something that could be traced. Please provide something to refute those statistics.

The JAMA link was nice and information but again misrepresented knowledge. Foreign born does not mean it came from illegal’s.

All legal immigrants MUST pass a medical exam before being allowed to immigrate. Anyone with a communicable disease is NOT allowed to immigrate until they have been cured. Illegals don’t get checked and have a disincentive to seek medical help.

Many of those case are from American born travelers to foreign lands.

Prove it.

California Free health clinic? Seriously how bias is that little piece.

Biased or not, if you don’t believe it then disprove it or, at a minimum, disprove the general consensus that illegals are more prone to carry drug resistant TB and have higher rates of AIDS.

The National Academy of Science ? Too bad you get your info from a bad source.

If it is so bad, where are all those great sources you bothered to link? You can’t disprove the substance of a report by shooting the messenger as unreliable. Unless that messenger is FOX SPEWS, which is self explained.

Yeah that’s right the illegal’s are responsible for people being stuck in the ghettos. What a crock of shit!!!!

It seems to me that if illegals are taking all the low paying jobs, that leaves less for the most fragile group in America, the young minorities from inner cities. Unemployment is a leading cause of criminal behavior. If you don’t believe it then post something to disprove it.

I can’t even continue because you are not even aware of how credible your sources are and when they are you don’t represent the data correctly.

Yet you, Mustard, and Awake are all screaming how bad these sources are but can’t provide anything other than “it’s YOUR responsibility to find the sources”. None of you refuted ANY fact I supplied. I don’t apologize for any bias in my sources. I reported the facts these sources supplied, NOT their opinions.

If you want to dispute the facts, then lets see something. This is like the “9/11 twoofers”. Somehow all you think is required is that you yell “bogus” or “biased” and that fact disappears. It doesn’t. You still require evidence to refute presented facts. Unless you’re a wing nut and I know you and Mustard aren’t.

Mister Mustard says:

#107 – Mr. Shit

So far, the only thing you’ve made a strong case for is that the illegals’ biggest problem (and their most objectionable characteristic) is that they are illegal.

No documentation, no driver’s license, substandard access to medical care, unregistered cars, fake license tags, overcrowded housing, most of those problems are directly attributable, to a greater or lesser extent, to the simple fact that the individuals are illegals.

Does this perhaps suggest to you that the cause of many of these evils is not the people themselves, but the way they are classified (ie criminalized)?

>>Illegals are taking jobs formerly held
>>by Americans.

Please cite the source for this claim. The Christian Science Monitor article’s conclusion seems to be that it’s impossible to know, that most jobs held by illegal immigrants are largely those that “native born Americans” won’t do (itinerant farm worker, bicycle messenger, minimum-wage sweatshop-type tasks), that an absolute seal of our borders might or might not have an effect on unemployment rates, and that most jobs taken by illegal immigrants are newly-created (and shitty) ones that were never “formerly held by Americans”.

In addition, most of the article draws a distinction between “native-born Americans” and all others. There’s no indication (and not even an implication) that people who are not “native-born Americans” are illegal immigrants; just that they are people who were not born in America. H1b visa holders, resident aliens, non-resident aliens, green card holders, etc. all fall into this category.

>>When more and more rich people insist upon
>>profits instead of legality this will only
>>continue.

Well, that’s the American way. If hiring illegals is made impossible, the rich people will either outsource the work to Mexico, overseas sweatshops, etc., or they will raise prices. Which would you rather have, 20% inflation, or Mexicans picking the lettuce for your salad? As you yourself imply, it’s the rich demanders who are to blame for much of this problem. And what are the chances of doing anything about them? Better to piss away a few billion on a useless wall covering 1/3 of the Mexican border. That will take years to complete, and by the time everyone realizes how futile this effort is, a lot of the politicians responsible will be retired or dead.

I reiterate my original contention: Most of those who are the most vocal critics of “illegal aliens” are motivated not by economic reality, health concerns, or patriotism; rather by a visceral dislike of beaners, spics, and all them thar Spanish-speaking folks.

J says:

You are all a bunch of bigots. Not you Mr. Mustard or Awake but the rest of you.

You can’t even see in your own writing that it isn’t illegal’s at all that you have a problem with. It is just the dark skinned ones.

For instance pedros comment

“Interesting! Yet, this is how they lived in their own countries before moving to their new one. ”

Really? Is that true for the Irish, Polish, German, and Russian illegal’s too? Or is it just those dirty Mexicans because they are easy to spot?

I won’t bother to point out that YOU bobbo have SOME comprehension problem. NEVER! NOT ONCE! did I say nor suggest illegal immigration was good. NOT ONCE!!! I said it was ENTANGLED!!! get a new dictionary!!

Mr. Gawd Almighty says:

#110, Mustard,

Think outside the bun, cabrón. You could also make them legal.

Or, we could enforce the law. If people start not paying for gas, there is no way in hell anyone in their right mind would suggest we make that legal. Gas prices hurt people too.

We could also prosecute the employers and charge them for the costs of deportation. We could also deport people and put their children into foster care. We could put them in jail. We could do many things to make doing illegal crap unpleasant. But rewarding illegal (or bad) behavior is not the ay to do it.

In any case, I reiterate yet again my initial (and still very valid) contention: …

Oopps, there you go with that biased opinion of yours.

Mr. Catshit says:

#111, “J”

You are all a bunch of bigots. Not you Mr. Mustard or Awake but the rest of you.

So, if I disagree with you I am a bigot? Didn’t Mr. Catshit say something earlier about those who can’t post facts so they scream ad hominems to shut the other’s up?

You can’t even see in your own writing that it isn’t illegal’s at all that you have a problem with. It is just the dark skinned ones.

And which post above specifically is targeting the “dark skinned ones”?

Really? Is that true for the Irish, Polish, German, and Russian illegal’s too?

How many illegal Irish, Polish, German, Russian, Canadian, French, Italian, British, Hungarian, and Albanian illegals are there in the US compared to the illegals from just Central America? Illegal is illegal and if they are here illegally then send them home. At their expense.

NOT ONCE! did I say nor suggest illegal immigration was good. NOT ONCE!!! I said it was ENTANGLED!!! get a new dictionary!!

So if bobbo reads something into YOUR words, he is wrong. BUT, if you read something into pedro’s words, (see #109) that is fine?

I think you just got caught twisting the truth. After all, the tenor of all your posts would leave one with the impression you favor illegal immigration whereas pedro has never even suggested anything about skin color.

Mister Ketchup says:

Catshit, I just want to go on record to say I am a trigot. This takes bigot to the next level. I’m willing to conduct a class via GoToMeeting if all the bigots here need the additional training. This instruction is not merely hate for anyone outside of their race, but to make fun of the other races, handicaps, religions etc. This free class promises to be entertaining and enlightening. There is no cost for Trigotry 101 but the follow-on DVD’s do require a small handling and shipping charge. Attendees must certify that they are a WSAP or, preferably, a WAS.

Mister Mustard says:

#112 – Gawd

>>In your whole diatribe, not once did you
>>present any proof my facts are wrong
>>excepting for your say so.

“your facts”? this was your first post in this thread. what “facts” are you referring to?

Or are you, in your omnipotence, posting under multiple names?

Hmmm?

Mister Mustard says:

#116 – Mr. Shit

All of the things you list are the direct result of criminalization and marginalization of the immigrants.

Sure, there will be higher rates of crime among poverty-stricken first-generation immigrants, just like there was with the Irish, the Germans, the Italians, the Russians, etc.

Deal with it.

Poor people are more likely to engage in criminal behavior.

I guess it all depends on whether you believe in the principles this country was founded on, or if you’re a bean-counting, Cheney-supporting Judas, counting your 30 pieces of silver while people suffer and die.

I report. You decide.

But when you label them “criminals” just by their very existence, you are virtually GUARANTEEING it.

Mr. Catshit says:

Mustard,

C,mom, back up your stupid posts with some facts. I’m not going back to check how long it has been, but you still haven’t given anything to either disprove MY cites or back up your own points. Normal people would only assume that that is because your points are factually incorrect.

You know you’ve been had by a better argument.

Mr. Catshit says:

Mustard,

Your cites? Sorry Mr. Shit. Other than that totally bogus VA State Police cite (which had nothing in particular to do with “illegal aliens”), you have provided no cites.

Please go back to #93 and READ.

Well, we have a cite about a report concerning the Virginia State Police.

Then there is a report cited from the Journal of the American Medical Association.

After that comes a citation from The Center for Immigration Studies.

Then a quote from the National Academy of Science

And, finally, some passages from a published Bear Stearns report.

That makes for FIVE sources I used. All cited and linked. If I wanted to do more research and dig a little deeper I would have used more. Now lets list all your citations:

(sound of tree falling in a forest with no one around to hear it)

Ok, that totals , uugh, ZERO.

So where the eff do you get off suggesting I haven’t backed up my argument? Remember, just because you don’t like the message is NOT a reason to deny the message. Nor is it a reason to start casting assertions about my feelings about immigrants. Suggesting I am a racist simply because I provided material you don’t like merely shows you lost the argument.

Repeatedly I asked you (and “J” and Awake) to provide something that would refute my arguments. All you could come up with were attacks on me and dismissal of the citations.

I invited you to keep the debate civil. Instead you keep up ad hominem attacks. That in itself shows you lost.

Mr. Catshit says:

#122, Mustard

Sure, there will be higher rates of crime among poverty-stricken first-generation immigrants,

Crime among legal immigrants has been generally historically lower than among American born citizens. Gang activity was almost always for self defense from American predators and the various factions of the immigrant groups themselves. The threat of deportation plus the usual work hard ethic is usually enough to keep immigrants clean. Again, historically, immigrants have usually been targets of predators from their countries and native Americans.

Illegal immigrants do not fall in the same category. It is impossible to derive any meaningful statistics concerning current illegals as they are estimated as being from 8 to 20 million, no one really knows who they are, identification is too often fraudulent, and often illegals will escape before a trial with no means of tracing them. Also they are often deported before local authorities can pursue charges.

Having said that, a crime is a crime and should not go unpunished. But local legal facilities are being overwhelmed by the influx of illegal immigrants. Courts, Prosecutors, police, and jails are often overcrowded with them. Because of their unstable, migrant nature, they are usually denied bail so they overcrowd jails.

I feel sorry that you are unable to comprehend the impact that has on justice in this country as well as the financial impact of local government trying to balance their budgets.

I guess it all depends on whether you believe in the principles this country was founded on, or if you’re a bean-counting, Cheney-supporting Judas, counting your 30 pieces of silver while people suffer and die.

I believe this nation was founded upon a set of laws. When those laws are wrong, our Judges can say so. If the laws have faded with time or do not keep up with the times, we may democratically change them. BUT, we do not ignore the laws simply because we don’t like them or find them inconvenient. If the current legal definition is that it is a crime to enter the United States without permission, then it is a crime. That makes those who do so criminals.

It appears that you are bringing your DU Law of Religious Intolerance into this. Plus, it makes no sense.

Mister Mustard says:

#130, 131 – Monsieur Merde

Thank you for yet again bringing Dvorak’s law to the forefront of our attention with your gratuitous attacks on people of faith.

>>It is impossible to derive any meaningful
>>statistics concerning current illegals

Exactly. So when in doubt, just say “it’s them thar fucking beaners what’s cloggin’ up all the jails, doin’ all the crimes, and takin’ away that job pickin’ cotton that I wanted so bad”.

Is that about it, Shit? You have no statistics or hard facts of any sort, but it’s always the easy way out to blame those least able to defend themselves.

I think you’ve been hoist on your own petard, m’hijito.

If you hate them thar beaners, why don’t you just say so? Bigotry is a foundation of modern American society. And you’ve obviously got a lot of support here!

Tips on using bra accessories to enhance cleavage says:

Think about how many hospitals have gone bankrupt because of stuff like this.