You guys will have to forgive me, but I’m translating from Spanish, I wanted to include a link to a Google translated page but somehow it’s not working, however, the original link is here, for those of you that can read in Spanish.
‘Business is Business’ – El Pais: Commercial relationships between two of the most enduring governments in the world, the State of Lower Saxony in Germany and the Cuban Dictatorship, has increased in the last few years.
What stands out lately in the commerce with Lower Saxony is the import of some emblematic products from the German Industry. German press has informed about the acquisition of 183 BMW cars for Cuban ambassadors. The Embassy in Berlin has stated the following: ‘These are vehicles for embassies’. BMW hopes to sell them 60 more cars. The embassy refused to confirm that Raul Castro already uses a quite modern BMW, compared with the old Mercedes used by his brother Fidel.
What, no Ladas? Damn.
Those spokespersons from Lower Saxony companies consulted by the newspaper that trade with Cubans, all fled like demons escaping from holy water to the question about fearing sanctions from the U.S. as a consequence of the Helms-Burton Law, which forbids commerce with the Cuban dictatorship.
Something that all the Bavarian exporters agree with is that Cuba is a trustworthy commercial partner and pays on time.
I bet they have loads of cash from using its citizens as slave labour in Latin American countries and all the Oil given by the lovely Kuzco. Isn’t that peachy. :(
#40, TIHZ,
While you make some good points, jag’s assessment is good. The Chinese still imprison people for political crimes. They censor what may be read. They prohibit any demonstration or memory of the Tianamin Square massacre. They discriminate against and jail followers of gulong fong religious movement for their beliefs.
I have talked to some visitors to China. The factory our company built over there was four floors. The First was the warehouse, the second was the manufacturing, the third was where the workers lived, and the fourth was where the factory manager lived and the offices were. The base pay was around $0.50 / hour with no benefits and a 12 hr day. They had no health and safety protections. Most Americans would consider those slave conditions.
Maybe China is improving, but they still have a long way to go.
#37, pedro,
You are letting you hatred of Hugo color your posts again. I don’t know which hurricane you are talking about and I certainly don’t ever remember Castro telling the American Government to put any aid “where the sun don’t shine”. Was that a Rush Limbaugh point or from a Pat Roberts Show?
Nightstar’s comment is true and a good point. Aid from around the world was refused, left to sit in warehouses, and even on the planes that brought it while the American Government dithered about what to do. That international outpouring of help will not be repeated next disaster.
Is this purchase being paid for by Venezuela? I don’t know. Cuba does sell a lot and has a thriving tourist trade. Both bring in a lot of foreign cash that may be used to pay for things. To suggest that ALL of Cuba’s foreign cash reserves come from Venezuela is disingenuous and wrong.
Cuba’s biggest export is cane sugar. Because there is a shortage of domestic cane sugar, most food manufacturers has resorted to corn sweeteners. Corn sweeteners are now being blamed as a leading cause of obesity in Americans. Canada which uses much less corn sweeteners has a much lower obesity rate even though the two societies are otherwise very similar. So you may say that yes, the Cuban embargo is hurting the average American.
addressing Gasparrini’s comments re Cuba/Angola/Grenada
I seem to recall that in Angola Cuban forces backed the MPLA against the South African Apartheid UNITA(supported by USA of course). Surely you won’t condemn Cuba for combatting Apartheid now, or do you hearken back to the good old days when Blacks couldn’t mix with whites?
In Grenada Cuba recognized and supported Bishops Marxist-Leninist Government and helped Grenada to build an airstrip(with the aid of England might I add). Subsequently the US invaded Grenada at the behest of Reagan fear mongering.
Reagan asserted that the Airstrip could only be used for military tactical purposes as opposed to industrial/commercial. Reagan also suggested that American students in Grenada were at peril citing the Iran hostage crisis as precedent, and called for an invasion.
With his coalition of the unimportant he launched an all American invasion and overthrew the Government.
Cuba did not participate in hostilities, their forces in Grenada were predominantly engineers.
BTW I have no idea what Venezuelan connection you’re referring to? please educate me on how Cubans fought a war on behalf of Venezuela. The world needs to hear your story 😉
it seems when I try to respond to Pedro’s posts they are subject to censorship by the moderators ^^ I apologize for double posting if such should occur as a result
#43, pedro,
Shall I repeat?
In post #37 you wrote:
fidel went out in public telling the US to place that aid where no sun shines.
I wrote:
…I certainly don’t ever remember Castro telling the American Government to put any aid “where the sun don’t shine”.
to which you replied:
“The United States can save itself the hypocrisy of trying to help Cuba out in this situation,” he said.
Now that is definitely NOT telling the US government to put the aid where no sun shines.
In another link, you could have posted more of Castro’s comments.
But President Fidel Castro, Cuba’s communist leader, said he had rejected $50,000 in humanitarian aid offered by the U.S. government.
“We would never accept it,” Castro said. “Even if they offered us a billion dollars, we’d refuse it.”
In a seven-hour television address — missed by many Cubans due to power outages — Castro instead called for the United States to lift its economic embargo against Cuba.
Nope. None of that “where the sun shines” shit.
Then your last link. The first paragraph stated:
Cuba has accepted a US offer to send a disaster team to help with Hurricane Wilma – the first time in decades that Cuba has said yes to such an offer. later the same article said
US state department spokesman Seam McCormack said the three-person team would assess what help was needed and the US would funnel any aid through non-governmental organisations (sp).
Nope, no “where no sun shines” here either. So I guess Castro didn’t tell the American Government to put any aid “where no sun shines ”.
As for Venezuela having a Bank Office in Havana? Nothing out of the ordinary there. Most large banks have international operations and offices in other countries. That includes most National Banks too.
Finally,
You’re the worst kind of blind, the one who doesn’t want to see.
Well, you are the one that made this, and other, outrageous statements. I’m only calling you on their veracity. You keep returning to Argentina as if somehow that is relevant but China isn’t.
FYI, the tourist resorts in Cuba are privately owned. That is why they were paid for with foreign money. The sugar industry has been hit hard by hurricanes and a slump in raw sugar prices but is still Cuba’s largest export.
#39 – TIHZ_HO – Germany has also been an enemy of the US in two World Wars!
Very true, but it wasn’t my point. My point was that you’ve got two communist regimes, one more evil than the other, and then you choose to open up free trade with the more evil one, but still maintain an embargo against the lesser evil one.
China today is not the shitty terrible China you remember…
I know that, but they’re still run by a regime that doesn’t give much for people who are of a different opinion when it comes to politics. I’m sure you’re aware of the Laogai system. Both of my wife’s parents were sent to Laogai for the simple reason that they were educated. That probably don’t happen nowadays, but the Laogai system is still around.
#40 – Mr. Fusion
Yes, the oppression and censorship is still there. Probably not as bad as it once were, but it’s still in effect. But from my visit to China, you would be amazed of what some Chinese are willing to tell you when they know that no other Chinese (except my wife) around.
As for the salaries in the factories… yes, they’re a joke. But engineers who are working in foreign joint ventures makes a very descent salary.
Maybe China is improving, but they still have a long way to go.
Absolutely. Hopefully the commies will be flushed in the process, but I don’t think it will be over night, because the Chinese remember how the Soviet Union fell apart.
From the BBC which you Pedro use for reference
“Fighting against an Angolan Government which deployed thousands of Cuban troops and enjoyed strong support from the former Soviet Union, Unita’s cause was taken up by apartheid South Africa and by the United States under Presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush senior.”
ahem! I’m awaiting an apology.
#40 – You’re much kinder than I.
While were at it lets analyze your other references
Your first CNN link
headline: Hurricane Ivan passes battered Cuba
Island nation in for several more hours of wind, rain
Interesting reading, I found this: “At least 1.5 million Cubans were evacuated to higher ground ahead of the storm, and early Monday, Cuban President Fidel Castro toured parts of western Cuba, which was ravaged by Hurricane Charley a month ago.”
Impressive accomplishment for a murderous dictator. Why couldn’t good ol boy George Bush do half so well with Katrina, makes ya go hmmmm?
your 2nd link, again CNN
Headline: Emily picks up steam
Likely to reach hurricane strength before entering Caribbean
“The Cuban government estimated the storm caused $1.4 billion in damage — equivalent to almost a year’s worth of income from Cuba’s main industry, tourism.”
“But President Fidel Castro, Cuba’s communist leader, said he had rejected $50,000 in humanitarian aid offered by the U.S. government.”
Now don’t get me wrong, personally I think US$50k is a lot of money buth then I’m poor. How many BMWs do you think that would have bought Castro neway?
And your 3rd link BBC
Headline: Cuba accepts US hurricane offer
“The US has maintained a strict economic embargo in response to Cuba’s communist policies. It rejected Havana’s offer of medical help after Hurricane Katrina struck New Orleans in August.”
So to be clear, according to YOU’RE sources.
1 Cuban Federal relief evacuated over 20% of their population from danger zones in advance of Hurricane Ivan while American Federal aid was non-existent during and in the wake of Katrina.
2 The paltry sum of financial aid offered Cuba by The good old USA amounted to .000028% of the estimated damage and Castro was a fool to reject it.
3 The USA rejected Cuba’s offer of assistance for New Orleans residents in the wake of Katrina
Pedro,
your very considerate doing the research to refute your own claims(I can’t call them arguements because they don’t conform to the standards of syllogism).
Please, please try to rebut me I do love this game ^^
BTW why are you sticking up for Gasparrini? I’m sure he’s man enough to defend his assertions.
and your ad hominem attacks are really very childish, shall we review them?
post 35 you start off with “#29 man, you eat shit everyday or just today???”
followed by “Keep buying what the fat man sicko puts in his movies”
and in closing “So, yeah, what a paradise, moron!”
Then in post#48 “appartheid in Angola? It was a civil war you dimwit!”
and “Man, you couldn’t be more commie lover.”
and again “You should get into the sicko fatman’s group and help him”
In summary, according to you I’m a shit eater, a dimwit and a commie lover and based on your analysis of my character anything I say is devoid of reason.
Michael Moore is Obese and thus his assertions are without merit
Pedro, Pedro, Pedro
Is it any wonder the world hates arrogant Americans like you?
Go back to school and learn the anatomy of an argument before slitting your throat in a public forum.
Over here on the sidelines – We have CHINA (sounds of firecrackers and Chinese gongs – in the background)
Mr. Fusion: “The base pay was around $0.50 / hour with no benefits and a 12 hr day. They had no health and safety protections. Most Americans would consider those slave conditions.”
As I said many times this is illegal and not government policy. With regards to the $0.50 per hour you didn’t indicate where in China as salaries and conditions vary substantially across China. In Shanghai where I am, a worker can expect about $2.25 per hour.
The costs of lining are different in rural China then in the cities as well – so don’t dismiss this. And yes Americans tend to consider anything not American as something wrong IMHO.
“The Chinese still imprison people for political crimes.”
“…but they’re (CHINA) still run by a regime that doesn’t give much for people who are of a different opinion when it comes to politics. I’m sure you’re aware of the Laogai system. Both of my wife’s parents were sent to Laogai for the simple reason that they were educated. That probably don’t happen nowadays, but the Laogai system is still around.”
So does America – it depends on the extent of the crime. My brother in law is a Chinese government official and holds two doctorates in political science (Chinese and International) and is a guest lecturer at many universities on how communism has failed China (wow) and how China’s change must throw development and not revolution.
If he did that 20 years ago he would have been goose stepped away and shot! The lessons learned in only recent times that rapid change can ultimately be destructive. Change must be directed and nurtured.
Jägermeister: WHERE in China would someone be thrown in jail for being educated today?
Yes you are correct, Mao was suspicious of all educated people and his cultural revolution was horrific, my father in law was imprisoned because of his degree in music. Hell people were imprisoned only because they had relatives in other countries (well America did that as well for a period of time WWII).
Yes there are terrible things happening right now: Hospitals letting people die because they have no money (that’s not being communistic at all), the police arresting a homeless person or someone from put of town to ‘solve’ a criminal case. The list goes on and on… But one cannot disagree that it is great improvement from only 20 years ago.
I know Americans are impatient BUT DAMN – how long did it take for America to develop?? EG: Blacks to get civil rights – that should have been a given but I can remember Whites Only and Coloured Only areas when I was a kid.
Mr Fusion: “(China) jail followers of gulong fong religious movement for their beliefs.”
You are saying this wrong? You are not serious are you?
Religion has a starring role in all things cluster fucked today but you think that China is wrong for preventing a strange cult from pervading society.
China also limits how many Mormons may congregate – and all the other ‘saved’ Christians who come knocking on your door. Yes, there is NO religious freedom of ALL religions and THANK GOD for that!
Why can’t everyone be a Buddhist? When is the last time a Buddhist Monk blew up a group of people?
So Mr. Fusion your wife is Chinese – so how long have you lived in China?
Gee keeping track of these comments and replies are getting damn difficult to do!
Summing up my comments for debate:
1/ China is NOT communist it is only a label – Mao and his regimen is gone so long live capitalism.
2/ Yes there are still terrible things happening in China but they are trending down from 20 years ago and it took America MUCH longer.
3/ Political dissent IS allowed in China as long as it is lucent and educated and from within the framework of the government.
4/ There is limited religious freedom in China for cults and Christians who are bent on saving you whether or not you want to be saved or not.
5/ Chinese people are enjoying a increase living conditions in cities and towns but villages still lag far behind and get the most attention when an example is being made. (I have relatives on my wife’s side who still are living in villages)
6/ It is private enterprise and not Chinese government policy who are abusing the Chinese workers. The government has difficulties in controlling this through corruption and so has implemented mandatory capital punishment for seriously corrupt politicians and business people. (Wouldn’t you like to see that in America? Hell YES! ENRON – to the gallows!)
7/ By far, Americans tend to think anything not American as something wrong but don’t bother with getting all the facts or ignore the facts that contradict their opinion. Others do it too…
Cheers
I missed this one
Jägermeister: “Maybe China is improving, but they still have a long way to go.”
Absolutely. Hopefully the commies will be flushed in the process, but I don’t think it will be over night, because the Chinese remember how the Soviet Union fell apart.
Again the commies are in name only…
Your point about Russia is a good one! What happened there? Rapid change was not the answer.
China is not wanting a ‘revolution’ as change must be a natural progression – and so clamps the lid down on anything suggestive of it. I can see if China was not changing and the lid is clamped down then there is something to say. However even Chinese leaders and government officials are all saying China MUST change BUT takes exception at America in telling them HOW and how fast to change. Kettle meet Black as I read here. America is no shining example of how its done as seems impossible to get US elections out of BETA after 200 years. DAMN!
I was in China in 1992 and I CAN see a great change from then and now. From 1995 I was in Jakarta and back to China in 2001. I guess I was away from American propaganda & rhetoric from 1983 onwards so I am not affected by it. But I can understand where many Americans are coming from with the continuous mind fuck they get 24/7/365.
Cheers
Nightstar, pedro is not from the U.S., but you seem to want to sell your country short, how is that working out for you?
#53, #54 – TIHZ_HO – As I said many times this is illegal and not government policy.
You must have lived in China long enough to know that Government policy isn’t really what’s practised at root level. According to Chinese law, freedom of speech is allowed… is it followed? And Shanghai is different. Shanghai is the new Hong Kong, rich and powerful. Get to the smaller cities and the working conditions are not as stellar as in Shanghai.
You can’t say that people in the USA are put in prison purely on their political beliefs?! But I dare you on this one… travel to Beijing and put yourself on Tianmen Square and start introduction classes on democracy. Have fun.
I didn’t say that the current flavor of the communist regime is putting people in prison due to being educated… I was telling you that my wife’s parents were put in prison due to this.
Yes there are terrible things happening right now
Sure does. Two old friends of ours were among the roughly million people who got evicted to make place for the Olympic stadiums. They got a week’s notice and a new address to move to.
Hospitals letting people die because they have no money…
This happens in the US from time to time.
Religion has a starring role in all things cluster fucked today but you think that China is wrong for preventing a strange cult from pervading society.
I agree with you on the issue of religion, but as much as I dislike religious/cult folks, I wouldn’t put them in jail for it. Falun Gong is indeed a religious cult, but are they really that big of a threat to the commies? No. Out of all the 100s of Chinese friends that my wife has, only one believes in that crap.
Why can’t everyone be a Buddhist? When is the last time a Buddhist Monk blew up a group of people?
No, they usually BBQ themselves. Why can’t everyone be Atheists? That way we can concentrate on the real issues in society.
China is NOT communist it is only a label – Mao and his regimen is gone so long live capitalism.
But still you’ve got one party, the communist party. 😉
Yes there are still terrible things happening in China but they are trending down from 20 years ago and it took America MUCH longer.
It’s also happening in a world that is moving way faster than even 50 years ago.
Political dissent IS allowed in China as long as it is lucent and educated and from within the framework of the government.
True. You can speak your mind as long as you’re not threating the totaliatarian system.
It is private enterprise and not Chinese government policy who are abusing the Chinese workers.
You can’t ignore that it’s with the blessing from the Government.
…Americans tend to think anything not American as something wrong but don’t bother with getting all the facts or ignore the facts that contradict their opinion. Others do it too…
It might be the case for some, but not for me.
America is no shining example of how its done as seems impossible to get US elections out of BETA after 200 years.
LOL – I’m not looking to the US as an example for how democracy ought to be.
I was in China in 1992 and I CAN see a great change from then and now. From 1995 I was in Jakarta and back to China in 2001. I guess I was away from American propaganda & rhetoric from 1983 onwards so I am not affected by it. But I can understand where many Americans are coming from with the continuous mind fuck they get 24/7/365.
In the US it’s called CNN and Fox News, in China it’s CCTV and China Daily. People who don’t get other news get a very messed up view of the world.
The changes in China are dramatic. If you want to give one man the credit… Deng Xiao Ping. He opened up China to foreign investment. Without it, China would never have evolved as it has.
#54, TIHZ,
Jag answered most of my comments about your rebuttal. I would add this.
It isn’t Communism that is the problem. That was (and is) an easy way to define or pick your enemy. The most dangerous political system is Totalitarian. It doesn’t matter if the “state” owns your factory or some private company working under orders from the “state” run it. When there is no choice, no freedom to choose, no right to criticize, no chance to improve the conditions, then that is a problem.
Religion may be wrong. That though, is an indication of the confidence of a political system. The ability to tolerate others that have different ideas then you.
Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population.
Albert Einstein
#56, jag,
Good post. If anyone considers it too long winded just divide it in half and attribute some to me.
America is no shining example of how its done as seems impossible to get US elections out of BETA after 200 years.
LOL – I’m not looking to the US as an example for how democracy ought to be.
To add, this is why so many Americans are upset with our voting results in 2000 and 2004. Americans expect (and demand) fair elections. While we want our candidate to win, the strength of our democracy depends upon the election being fair.
When we are a nation of laws, we want all laws applied evenly, fairly, and with justice to everyone. When our laws are not applied properly is when we become upset. If someone’s position in society garners them a judicial advantage, we not become outraged, we all lose.
As bad as the past 6 ½ years have been, we still have an example for many countries to look up too.
>>there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population.
Very multi-culti of Albert, and by association, of you, Señor Fusion!
#55 @$tr0Gh0$t
I don’t know where Pedro is from although I did assume from his ardent defense of American policies both foreign and domestic that he must reside in the USA.
My objections to his statements are that they are poorly supported and composed of insults and ad hominem attacks on participants in the forum. In short, Pedro is a bully and I can’t abide bullying.
By “sell short” do you mean as a finance term? As though I somehow profit from it’s decline?
I don’t sell my country short, but I’m not afraid to tell it how it is or at least how I see it.
I don’t buy into “America love it or leave it” style rhetoric
As Samuel Johnson once said.
“Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”
I’m a humanitarian not an American
#57 – Mr. Fusion – The most dangerous political system is Totalitarian.
Absolutely. Just look at Germany in the years that lead up to World War 2. Hitler and company grabbed power and got the support of the people because the Nazis dragged Germany out of the recession, killed of unemployment, rearmed the military and brought pride to the German people. Then they had a big propaganda triumph with the 1936 Olympics. After that the Nazis grabbed areas of other countries by rattling their guns, just to end it all with a war that cost some 50-70 million deaths. There’s a lot to learn from history on what’s happening in the current.
Loved the quote from Einstein.
#58 – Mr. Fusion
Thanks. 🙂 The US democracy is in effect a two party system. I can’t say that I’m too thrilled about that idea, but it’s better than the one sported by China. If I could put together a system I would like to live in… it would be Swedish multi-party democracy with the Swiss approach to referendums. If you have more than two parties, you get more representative development of the country since not just one party will rule the country (unless they alone get 50% of the votes).
Editor – Please put and end-i tag after Totalitarian. in my #62 post..
Thanks in advance.
I just had a thought – John ought to have a page here just for these debates! LOL! What do all of you think about that. There are some DAMN good discussions here which get forgotten when the page dates.
#56 Jägermeister: You must have lived in China long enough to know that Government policy isn’t really what’s practised at root level. According to Chinese law, freedom of speech is allowed… is it followed? And Shanghai is different. Shanghai is the new Hong Kong, rich and powerful. Get to the smaller cities and the working conditions are not as stellar as in Shanghai.
Yes I have been in China for about +7 years but not sequentially. I agree with you that sadly government policy is not enforced as well as it should. The central Chinese government is of course aware of this but in practice it is VERY hard to turn around.
There are many damn good people in office but for many reasons – one being how Chinese hierarchy operates in all levels of life retards progress. Put simply (as this is a very complex subject) the boss is always correct and never has to (or expected to) explain the reasons why someone has to do something.
Chinese are TASK orientated while Westerners are RESULT orientated. Chinese will do the task they have been given to do and seldom give any thought to the reasons for it and what is the desired result.
Westerners are given the task and what is the desired result should be so if the task needs to be modified to get the result its ok to do so.
This is an important point as If there is a corrupt government official it is rare for an insubordinate to ever blow the whistle – one they might not be privy to damning information and two one never argues with the boss.
I know this may not be clear as my explanation is over simplified but suffice to say it is a real reason why progress in eliminating corruption is slow.
Another reason for government policy regarding workers is not followed is often the workers themselves. Its easy believe that must be them not willing or even contemplating to complain – but that is not always the case. If a company drops the 12 hours to 8 hours they will complain as they get less money. The more hours means more money. Additionally many workers are from small rural areas and not local and so they feel they are wasting time not working!
I had a VERY difficult time to understand this but it is true. Many workers get their base salary and piece work – overtime is not a extra payment but is factored in as part of their pay. I have been general manager of a few factories and now have my own business.
In Shanghai one factory I was managing I had workers complain about the cap on hours – they wanted to work 12 hours a day but my hands were tied.
The two business I have are not located in Shanghai but in smaller cities near Shanghai – 3 hours west and 5 hours north.
This is not to say that there are many workers which are abused and do not fall into this category. It is a VERY complex issue.
I think this ‘comment’ is too long already but I could put my views about what we are discussing later on my blog I just started.
Cheers
#65 – TIHZ_HO
I’m familiar with the Chinese bureaucracy and the “yes boss” mentality. This is something that stretches back thousands of years and won’t change anytime soon.
And I’m also familiar with the task vs result. Chinese are very good at following procedures. My wife usually jokes about this, because she’s like that herself and she realizes it.
If a company drops the 12 hours to 8 hours they will complain as they get less money.
This comes down to another thing about the Chinese mind. They’re very money minded. My wife is definitely the banker in our family. 🙂 I’m sure that when they earn more per hour, they’re going to prioritize health and life more than asking for longer working ours to make ends meet and get money in the bank.
Jägermeister My wife is definitely the banker in our family.
LOL! You and me BOTH!! 😉 She cracked up when I told her what you said and she told me “you guys are too stupid with money!”
Drop me email off line tihz_ho@yahoo.com if you like.
Cheers!
Hi, I am very interesting to know about Kuzkoland’s state oil company which owns CITGO) offices in Uruguay . how i can i find more abut this company? or if about the woman in the plane? thank you.