Show star: self-righteous Chris Hansen
NBC’s ‘To Catch a Predator’ sued over man who killed himself as police arrived | KOMO-TV – Seattle, Washington | Entertainment — Something like this was bound to happen. This creepy show, which is essentially institutionalized entrapment for the purposes of entertainment and humiliation, was bound to get more bold as time went on and as ratings went up.
Curiously there was a Law and Order episode sometime back where something like this happened and the producers were found guilty of murder by depraved indifference or something like that. These guys exhibit a lot of depraved indifference by showing up at some jokers home like this. Normally they let the “predator” (usually some pathetic and gullible cross-eyed loser thinking he is going to get lucky with some underage girl) show up at the sting site. Actually going to the guys house before he actually does anything overt may be an issue in the lawsuit.
In the “Dateline NBC: To Catch a Predator” show, men accused of having explicit online chats with people they think are underage children go to a house to meet them, where TV cameras, host Chris Hansen and police await.
Louis William Conradt Jr., of Terrell, Texas, a Dallas suburb, was suspected of being one of those men, except he didn’t show up at the house. That didn’t stop the TV producers and police from showing up at his, though, and as officers knocked on his door and a camera crew waited in the street, Conradt shot and killed himself.
What do I think about all this? NBC and the other networks should be supporting and developing shows such as Americas Most Wanted which tries to get criminals off the street rather than try to create new criminals with this sort of exploitation of the feeble-minded. Hansen himself says this on his blog: “More often than not, when a potential predator shows up at one of our hidden camera houses he has no criminal history for sexual assault or soliciting a minor online for sex.”
So let’s see if we can make them criminals for ratings? This is beneficial to society? It’s sick.
found by Aric Mackey
#57 – he is **innocent** until PROVEN guilty.
I stand behind my distinguished colleague from across the isle on this issue.
#58 – A major source of confusion is thinking that somehow “To Catch a Predator” is somehow part of the justice system. They are not.
Right. They are NOT. Well, now that we are in 100% agreement, I guess the issue is settled and we can all go download new ring tones for our iPhones.
61–You are too kind. Actually, my puter is crashing every 30minutes trying to learn firewire recording from my Comcast DVR–or is it Google Desktop that I just installed?
Peace be with you.
Rob. I am not defending these clowns. I just do not think it is a good idea to ENCOURAGE them with this sort of game. I don’t want to encourage would-be murderers either. You and the other defenders of this pre-crime style of law enforcement entertainment all seem to assume that sooner or later these obvious idiots are going to attack someone so let’s trick them ASAP. The result is some poor jerk killing himself when he may have never had any intent whatsoever and could have seen his online activity as odd fantasy. I don’t see any of this actually resulting in taking ACTUAL dangerous creeps off the streets. Watch the show. The people they are busting are morons. One guy was busted twice by the exact same scam. What a fucking dummy. Now if you want to throw more morons in jail for being stupid, OK fine. Maybe an IQ test and euthanasia is OK by you.
The point of this is that guy who they visited did one thing wrong, maybe. He was in a chat room chatting with what could have been a man posing as a girl or whatever (gee, that never happens). A meeting was arranged. He bagged it since he had no real intent on doing anything. He may have even thought it was a scam to rob him. Who knows. The NBC folks needed the footage so they went to him! This is OK with you? Wow. No wonder we have more people in prison in this country than anywhere in the world both per capita and total numbers.
Meanwhile because we have SO MANY jerks in prison they have to let people out early and thus we have the recent home invasion murders of the two sisters and the Mom. Yeah, this is working great. I feel so protected. Thanks!
Why is this seen as entertainment in your country? Is watching this now seen as exciting somehow?
Hey – why not set up cameras in a bar somewhere and try to get people to drink-drive? Or maybe set up cameras in a drug “shooting gallery”.
It seems your American public get off on watching people commit crimes. Can’t you tell the difference between fiction are real life?
The fact that this show even exists is scary to me.
John I respect your considered position and willingness to detail it rather than just huff and puff and state a conclusion. I will respond likewise, for my own edification if nothing else?
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Rob. I am not defending these clowns./// Good, except you are by effect if not by intention.
I just do not think it is a good idea to ENCOURAGE them with this sort of game. I don’t want to encourage would-be murderers either. /// I don’t know who is being encouraged–the sleazy media, or the proto criminals. I would encourage competent investigative reporting and try to help the criminals. Question of resources and political consensus.
You and the other defenders of this pre-crime style of law enforcement entertainment all seem to assume that sooner or later these obvious idiots are going to attack someone so let’s trick them ASAP./// Thats true, and I take your point. Obviously not ALL of these mentally challenged folks will act out- – – but what of the ones that will? Its more than a technicality though that these folks violated the law and became subject to arrest during the email conversations. Technically, I think its called “talking dirty to a minor” “sending porn thru the email” and “soliciting a minor” etc.
The result is some poor jerk killing himself when he may have never had any intent whatsoever and could have seen his online activity as odd fantasy. /// I agree, he was a tortured soul. I too wonder what his real game was and what he needed to be made whole. Cetainly not the cops, even though he was already a criminal via email, but I don’t see any real alternative unless a social worker should make contact first with all suspected child molesters? Course, they don’t have any authority to require counselling outside of an arrest scenario.
I don’t see any of this actually resulting in taking ACTUAL dangerous creeps off the streets. Watch the show. The people they are busting are morons. One guy was busted twice by the exact same scam. What a fucking dummy. Now if you want to throw more morons in jail for being stupid, OK fine./// Well, I agree and said as much at my first post. (#14, Para 3) I think more counselling is indicated across the board especially for non-violent crimes. Many criminals are morons and mentally deficient, doesn’t mean they aren’t dangerous, especially when trying to access minors?
maybe an IQ test and euthanasia is OK by you./// Actually, IQ and sterilization, but thats another thread.
The point of this is that guy who they visited did one thing wrong, maybe. He was in a chat room chatting with what could have been a man posing as a girl or whatever (gee, that never happens). A meeting was arranged. He bagged it since he had no real intent on doing anything. He may have even thought it was a scam to rob him. Who knows. The NBC folks needed the footage so they went to him! /// or did NBC go along with the cops to film the arrest? Not much different though as cops alone probably would have triggered him.
This is OK with you? /// No its not. Infotainment should not be involved in law enforcement – – -in a perfect world. If cops need help funding and manning a sting operation, perhaps the media should be involved and only allowed a respectful documentary style reportage that no one would see? I wonder if “anybody” saw this and said “I better not do this” or “I need some help?” I’d think a few would?? Hope so. On balance, whats worse, the type of people we saw being lured into a sting operation, or the sleazy media capitalizing on these unfortuneates?? I say the moronic men are worse because they need mental health services and they refuse to get it.—Like drunks who drive cars. Cant say for sure they will ever hurt anyone, but what they are doing is irresponsible and they need to be stopped.
Wow. No wonder we have more people in prison in this country than anywhere in the world both per capita and total numbers. /// I agree. We need to change our approach. Mental health for sex offenders rather than jail? I support that as they obviously are sick.
Meanwhile because we have SO MANY jerks in prison they have to let people out early and thus we have the recent home invasion murders of the two sisters and the Mom. Yeah, this is working great. I feel so protected. Thanks! /// That was a horrendous situation. Jails should be reserved for the worst types after preliminary help proves a waste of time. A whole different emphasis on crime and social needs of the general population. Probably no politician could be elected running with such a plank in their platform==too liberal. And so, we have the society we have.
Nothing has been resolved, but thank you for your forum and personal interest in what you post. Hope I didn’t step on “Robs” toes, as I am “bobbo.”
Well, I’m w/ John C on this… it’s sad that you guys fall for the scaremonging.
If not terrorists, then it’s drug dealers or child molesters, but there always manages to be one hot-button or another that you react strongly enough to to be willing to compromise on justice. “Rights of the accused, presumption of innocence, bla bla bla – but these guys are __________, so it’s OK to cut some corners.”
No it isn’t. It never is, because if we step outside the lines once, make an exception to the usual requirement that an actual crime take place, or be attempted, it’ll happen again. Maybe we’ll start charging people with attempted murder because they bought a knife or a gun, legally and aboveboard – “But he could use that gun he bought to kill someone. Why else would he want one? Are we supposed to just let people like him go and use it to shoot someone before we step in??”
Same reasoning, different offense. Does that scenario sound reasonable to you?
You’re so emotionally blinded by your revulsion at the nature of the offense that you’re oblivious to the irreparable damage it does to the cause of justice. It’s a major step toward a police state, but by the time you realize it, as always, it’ll be too late.
You give this bullshit a pass of charging someone with endangering or having the intent of endangering a nonexistent “victim” and I guarantee you you’ll live to regret it.
66–Lauren, not only are your wrong in conclusion, you are wrong in analysis as well. Unusual, but this topic might give YOU, John, and OFTLO an opportunity to actually “change your mind.”
Its hard to tell without longer conversations but you all seems concerned that “no real crime” has been commited? On that, you are FACTUALLY wrong. Read the case cited at Post #42. “Mistake of Fact” does not lessen the nature or severity of the crime. When you are serious wrong on a foundational FACT, its not surprising the conclusions your draw thereafter are likewise wrong.
Now, I’ve been thinking about OFTLO’s characterization of me that I trade freedom for security. I see reason for that because it does fit in many aspects, but thats not it. What I think I am championing is COMPETENCY in acitivities undertaken. Even ourgovernment, even the police,should be most competent in what they do. This means surveillance camera’s (technology) and stings (pro-active investigative work).
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So now, in detail:
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Well, I’m w/ John C on this… it’s sad that you guys fall for the scaremonging. /// I don’t see scaremongering at all. Atleast that wasn’t my response to the TV show. More “amazed and sad” at the morons who show up? I am egotistical and naive enough to think such things would never happen to me and mine, so I’m not scared at all. On those meek morons==they certainly do present themselves as ineffectual and harmless? – – -but that is to an unexpected adult. What would they act like with a kiddie? Probably differently, certainly with a few beers under their belts?? “C’mon baby, I didn’t drive all this way for nothing!”
If not terrorists, then it’s drug dealers or child molesters, but there always manages to be one hot-button or another that you react strongly enough to to be willing to compromise on justice. “Rights of the accused, presumption of innocence, bla bla bla – but these guys are __________, so it’s OK to cut some corners.” //// You are confusing the tv show with the seperate criminal justice system. Stop it.
No it isn’t. It never is, because if we step outside the lines once, make an exception to the usual requirement that an actual crime take place, or be attempted, it’ll happen again.////// If you disagree that soliciting a minor for sex should be a crime, then you are right. However, that is the law and a good one I think. As to “actual crime” that could mean various things so be more specific AFTER you read and understand “mistake of fact” and “stings” in the referenced case. If you still disagree, just note that the legal system you want to support is based on such concepts and they only make sense if you want to stop crime.
Maybe we’ll start charging people with attempted murder because they bought a knife or a gun, legally and aboveboard – “But he could use that gun he bought to kill someone. Why else would he want one? Are we supposed to just let people like him go and use it to shoot someone before we step in??” ///// Yes, that would be rediculous. Now have the guy with a just bought knife, he sends an email to you saying he wants to kill you, and he drives 300 miles to your house and knocks on the door. Now, continue your analysis.
Same reasoning, different offense. Does that scenario sound reasonable to you? ////// Only if you take away 5-6 relevant facts.
You’re so emotionally blinded by your revulsion at the nature of the offense that you’re oblivious to the irreparable damage it does to the cause of justice. It’s a major step toward a police state, but by the time you realize it, as always, it’ll be too late. ///// I personally am not revulsed, and kinda go with Man of Liesure on this. Since you aren’t concerned, lower the age of consent to 7 or 8 and let the Party get Started. What I am revulsed by is people avoiding what to me is clear—concepts of the validity of sting operations, the confusing of the tv show with the criminal law system, the sympathy for actual criminals becuase they were caught before having time fo fully act out their intentions on real victims===all very sloppy thinking, thats what revolts me. ((Fun to have the juices flow.))
You give this bullshit a pass of charging someone with endangering or having the intent of endangering a nonexistent “victim” and I guarantee you you’ll live to regret it. ////// Misunderstanding, or being ignorant of, or disagreeing with the concept of “Mistake of Fact” makes you look ignorant and your ideas of justice misplaced. I wish the police were capable of being more competent in performing sting operations WITHOUT entrapping innocent people. I don’t think those caught on tape and otherwise are “innocnet” at all and I am happy to see them caught and put away. Would prefer mental health system organized to respond rather than jail system, but we find “fuzzy thiniing” all over the place.
No, on the merits, you good folks objectively don’t understand the subject you are talking about. After you understand “mistake of fact” and stings, we can sharpen our areas of disagreement, but I don’t see lvining with unnecessary crime as a market for FREEDOM, in fact, just the reverse.
I’ll check this thread in days to come for anyone wishing to respond.
#67, Lauren,
…because if we step outside the lines once, make an exception to the usual requirement that an actual crime take place, or be attempted, it’ll happen again. Maybe we’ll start charging people with attempted murder because they bought a knife or a gun, legally and aboveboard – “But he could use that gun he bought to kill someone. Why else would he want one?
To me this is the premise of your whole point. To me, your error is the missing intent. Buy a weapon. If your intent is lawful then there shouldn’t be a problem. Buy a weapon with the intent to commit mischief or harm and then there is a problem. The law recognizes that fact.
The same intent is shown by the men showing up at the houses. They believe they will be getting some sex with an underage girl. Fuck the whole maturity argument, it is still illegal to have sex with girls under a specific age. They went to the house intending to commit a crime. That is the intent and the crime.
I agree the show plays upon the men’s gullibility and in most cases their stupidity too. It entices men to do something they wouldn’t otherwise do. But that is not a legal defense. If it was then someone would be able to say “Gee, I robbed that bank because I couldn’t resist all that money”.
And it is a stupid show. I have not been able to see more then a few minutes without changing the channel.
Bobbo,
You didn’t step on my toes.
John,
I said outted, the guy killed himself because he got outted. I’m sad that it happened, but obviously, he had very serious problems. Yeah these guys are losers, but are there pedophiles or wannabes who aren’t?
And of course, who should go to jail and who shouldn’t with prisons this crowded? Actually, outting these guys and not prosecuting them could be a good middle ground.
And you still do not address what should be done with these guys who hang out in children’s chatrooms. Risk of outting could be the deterrent, unless it gets them off.
I will probably be villified for posting on here, but this issue is directly affecting me. I was one of the people caught up in one of these online stings. It wasn’t Dateline, but it was where the police officers got the idea for it.
I was chatting with someone on Yahoo Chat in just a general chat room and the person stated they were a 14 year old girl. I should have stopped right there, but I seriously thought it wasn’t real. So many people are lying on the internet, but I shouldn’t have even taken a chance that it could have been real. We talked for maybe 30 minutes where the male officer gave this sob story about that the mother was a nurse and was never home and they were bored. I started talking to the person on the phone. I didn’t decide to meet her until I heard her voice. This was the voice of a woman not a child. It turned out that this agent was a 27 year old female who was not in any way trying to sound young or disguise her voice. I bought condoms, because in my mind I was going to meet a woman. I tried several times to talk myself out of it and said that we shouldn’t do this. Everytime the female officer would say oh it’s ok or say nice things about me. I reach the house and I haven’t even opened my door and cops are there yelling at me with guns drawn to get out of the car. I never went into the home or met with the “girl”. I know I was wrong for ever going there and that I deserve some punishment, but to call me a rapist or a pedophile when I have never touched a child is just wrong.
I don’t look at child pornography. I don’t cruise the streets looking for kids. I have never touched or wanted to touch a kid and I will have to deal with being called a rapist for the rest of my life when I have never raped anyone. Now I am looking at going to federal prison for possibly 10 years. How can anyone say that that is a fair punishment for what I did. I basically said a few naughty words to a guy and a woman. Because of this, I have lost my career. They have posted my face and name on the news and in the paper. When my job found out they made me resign , even before I had had a trial. I have been put under very strict probation even before I have had a trial. I am being told to plea to a 5 year deal because it’s better than 10 years. Then I will have to register as a sexual predator and possibly be on probation for the rest of my life. Sometimes people that actually murder someone isn’t given this harsh a punishment.
I have been seeking counseling and have been meeting and obeying my probation stipulations. I even got another job which they said was a requirement but how is someone like me supposed to get a job. Now they are saying that because there is wireless internet in the building, even though I am not using it and do not have to use it as part of my job, that I may have to quit this job. What kind of work environment in today’s world does not have a computer or internet?
I will never have a good life again and to some people they will applaud that. Just twenty years ago you had people like Elvis Presley , Jerry Lee Lewis marrying minors. That wasn’t even looked at as illegal. So should I have offered to marry this fake person? Now do you wonder why they are building more and more prisons and jails instead of factories or places where the growing poor population could work? The 1% keep getting richer off of us, the poor. There really is no middle class in this country anymore. In my view it is just going to get worse than better if people in this country don’t start standing up for their rights as citizens.
The previous poster was right that it is getting scarely close to a Minority Report type future. Everybody has wrong thoughts from time to time. People have even thought about killing someone else. Should these people spend life in prison just for thinking that they wanted to kill someone. Where does it end?
If it wasn’t for my family and friends sticking by me , I would have done the same thing that guy in Texas did. To me it seems like the legal system would just prefer that I do kill myself. They have not been making it very easy to live my life. What is really bad about this is that my family is being affected just as bad as I am or in certain situations worse. I feel worse about what I have put them through, then what I actually did. I am not a molester, I am not a pedophile, and I am not a rapist and I am not going to become one. I am just waiting for the stones to start pelting me.
So, the fact that a friend of mine had some nasty stuff in his profile on Yahoo and was chatting with an undercover from another county, who based on his “PROFILE” that anyone can make up for entertainment purposes, he was “Profiled” as a Kiddie Porn addict?? His family’s lief was turned upside down and inside out. The DA got a warrant for his family’s computer and took it along with other documents and discs 6 months ago. He gets a call about a month ago saying that the charges are being dropped and they can get their computer back once the hard drive has been “cleaned”. To this day, they still do not have their computer back and every time he thinks about getting on line to chat with friends, and I mean EVERY TIME he gets pop-ups asking about his profile that he has since deleted??? Talk about a set up! No wonder we are all paranoid about the internet! Based on this friend’s experiences, I will no longer get on chat unless I know exactly who I am talking to. Chat Rooms are entrapment sites. The internet has never been a safe place for kids who are unsupervised and now it is becoming a way to entrap people who are just trying to bust bordeom. I know that there are many pedofiles out there that need to be caught, but giving our government such latitude and free reign to entrap anyone they want to. I recently read on the internet that Pres. Bush just expanded the right for law enforcement to use wire tap priviledges, when will it ever stop???
This invites a question…
IS the OLD format of the internet, ANY BETTER/SAFER/PRIVATE/Other wise…..
You could chat/ramble/profetize/ANY THING…And it was private/OPEN..
You just had to LEARN something, and HOW to get on.
The current BATCH of CRAP, is as bad as comparing NEWS groups to P2P…
I dont want ANYONE watching me do my THING…Even IF’ Im stupid…And in the Old chats, THEY WILL TELL you…IF you are stupid..
I for one am thrilled that shows like “To Catch a Predator” are on the air. Even if this particular guy didn’t show up at the house where the underage girl was supposed to be, he must have felt guilty about SOMETHING if he killed himself. I rarely become suicidal when I see cops at my door and what does an INNOCENT have to fear of the camera if they have done nothing wrong? They got his address because he was SOLICITNG a young girl and KNEW she was underage. That’s bad enough right there. Oh, and let’s mention that most of these guys have never had a conviction before? Well, they just haven’t been CAUGHT before. I’ll bet they never do it again… and it may deter many guys who are thinking about it.