When young Missoulians turned out to the polls in big numbers last November, the response should have been an embrace of the newly engaged youth. After years of hearing about how young people didn’t care about politics, in this election Montana’s youth decided the fate of a U.S. Senate race. They also likely provided the margin of victory for the Missoula marijuana initiative, a measure that made adult marijuana offenses the lowest priority for local law enforcement.
Unfortunately, now – because some people dislike these results – a campaign is being waged against young voters, accusing them of being lazy, uninformed, and thoughtless, when it comes to political decision-making.
The Montana state legislature is considering HB 281, a bill that would end Election Day Registration in Montana. Nearly 4,000 Montanans took advantage of Election Day Registration, sometimes waiting in line for hours for the opportunity to vote.
Here in Missoula County, elected officials including the County Attorney and our County Commission are intent on significantly weakening the marijuana initiative, claiming that the people who passed it simply did not know what they were doing.
The question at the heart of the matter – whether certain people can be trusted with the powers of self-government – is at its heart a question of democracy. Two hundred years ago, a number of individuals launched a great experiment called America based on the premise that all of us are smarter than any one of us. Over the years, this system has been expanded, slowly granting the right to vote to groups other than land-owning white men.
That’s why this is actually a republic, not a democracy.
In California we voter approved an open primary.
The political parties successfully challenged it in court. I think what appalled me the most was that this included THE REPUBLICAN PARTY who constantly complain bitterly about the “unelected courts overriding the voters.”
We voters voted.
The GOP actively used the courts to over-ride it.
Yet, they still use that talking point about the judges.
Mac Guy — I have a question.
What’s the deal with that claim? I’ve heard people make it for YEARS as it if were some debate trump card. But making what point?
A country can be BOTH a republic and a democracy, right? In fact, it’s common.
The leaders in a republic are elected democratically — I think I learned that in High School civics class.
I must be missing something.
Thank god the state government has arrived in time to save us from ourselves. Why, without these clear heads in power, we might well have had to live with our own collective decisions. And what’s the benefit of voting, really, if have to live with the consequences? In fact, what we really need is a single person or persons –let’s call them kings, for short– who are endowed by god with the authority and the wisdom to make all of our important decisions for us.
America is a Constitutional Republic. It is not a democracy in the strictest sense of the word. We are democratic but not technically a democracy
Years ago, Arizona voters passed a proposition to allow Medical Marijuana.
The Legislature tried to overturn it.
The Voters passed an initiative to keep the Legislature from overturning voter initiatives.
J/P=?
In the UK our beloved Prime Minister started a website to allow people to start E-Petitions about things that mattered to them. Every single one of them, some of which have been signed by more than a million people, have been roundly ignored.
Aint it crap when you try and pretend to care what people think only to find that lots of them dont think like you!
Me thinks we need term limits at every level of government. Don’t let the rascals settle in …. ever.
#1 & 5,
How does being a republic mean the US is NOT a democracy?
Now I realize that not everyone managed to pass Civics back in gr 5 and not all that did managed to stay awake, but, …
1, 5
I thought you guys dissolved the Republic back during the 30’s and became a democracy.
Everyone is using the word “democracy” to mean different things. Officially, Wikipedia claims the US to be a Constitutional Republic and a Federal Republic. The core feature of a Republic is that the populace does not vote for issues directly but rather through proxies or representatives. In a democracy, the people vote on issues directly (e.g. CA’s Proposition construct). In this thread, people think we are a democracy because we use direct vote to elect representatives but that is a mistake. In the original design of the country, the Founding Fathers wanted to have a group that represented the people (House of Representatives) and group that represented the interest of the States (Senate). Well, we blew that idea when we required States to directly elect Senators (they used to be appointed by their State government). In addition, we blew the idea of having a group truly represent the people by capping the number of Representatives. The effect is that the ratio of governed to governing is so high that we have created an elitist group that do not necessarily represent the will of the people.
America hasn’t really been a representative democracy since the day Richard Shithouse Nixon took office. With a couple brief respites, it’s been downhill from there.
Democracy – the act of fooling the mob into believing that they are in charge so that they don;t actually bother the people who are in charge ((stalin, george bush ,hitler and stephen harper(the canadain dictator) come to mind). In the past the british house of lords did experiment with using cheap gin (10 p a bottle) to keep the mob under control (how far can the mob get when there’s a new party every 10 ft.) . Unfortunately for those in control a viscous fight broke out among themselves. The scots and the admiralty insisting on scotch and rum and the attempt had to be abandoned . f
The real truth is we not only outnumber the people elected we’re on average much smarter than they are so the answer to them ignoring our wishes is of course massive violence directed against them. (I said we’re smarter than politicians not that we’re any smarter than the basketball I watched on sunday ( I swearr it had a mind of its own). go hoyas
As long as you keep voting for the Republicans you’ll keep on seeing this kind of crap..
#9
For starters, you don’t use the popular vote to choose a president, instead you use the college electoral vote.
“As long as you keep voting for the Republicans you’ll keep on seeing this kind of crap..”
As long as you keep voting for a politician, you’ll keep on seeing this kind of crap..
I’m convinced that neither party makes the wishes of the voter a top or even a minor priority.
#9
How does being a republic mean the US is NOT a democracy?
Well. There are very fine distinctions between the two. The structure of the Government is what determines the actual classification. We are very much like a Representative Democracy but we are not. It is really splitting hairs but that is the technical fact.
Your not understanding that you can have elements of a democracy without being an actual democracy. That is the case here in the U.S.
For anyone who wants to debate all the different forms of democracy and such . Don’t waste our time. America is closest to a Representative Democracy but again it is not a Representative Democracy. We are a constitutional republic.
If you need any proof of what we are and were intended to be. Read: Article 4 Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution. Nowhere does it say we are a democracy
bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha
democracy? america? where have you been since 2000?
g.w. rules with absolute power within his own party — none dare oppose or question him
republicans only think they are independent thinkers — this is because the party provides such detailed talking points
won’t be long before the concept of voting will be but a faded memory, and we have less freedoms than they do in red china.
Aside from the BDS and nonsense, no one has actually got this right.
We are a representative republic, which is just one form of democracy. All representative republics are democracies, but not all democracies are representative republics.
It’s like that rectangle/square thing, which is also something we learned in third grade.
#18
It is not entirely correct to say that all Representative Republics are Democracies. All Representative Republics share in democratic ideals but they are not democracies
Again it is splitting hairs but the OFFICIAL CLASSIFICATION of the U.S. Government is a Constitutional Republic. Not a democracy. Not a Representative Republic. Not a Representative Democracy.
I personally believe we are a hybrid because of the 17th amendment. Which was 1913 not in the 30′ like # 10 suggested. Because of that amendment we went part of the way to being a Representative Democracy but we still maintain the electoral college for our executive branch. Which still classifies us as a Constitutional Republic.
OK, for all you Civics drop outs, malren got it right.
Democracy refers to the representative being responsible to and elected by the people. Republican means the form of government as seen in the US. For the Civic challenged, look up Parliamentary.
Thus, the US is both democratic and republican.
“Democracy refers to the representative being responsible to and elected by the people. Republican means the form of government as seen in the US. ”
…as seen in the U.S…. So a Republic is a government where two historically divergent yet more recently identical parties vie for votes to further their dark agenda of managed mayhem, fooling people into thinking that they have a say and letting them peak into the scene? That sounds more like organized professional sports than an ideal government.
Mr. Fusion, those definitions are a bit lazy. From the begining there has always been the dichotomy of representing the constituency’s wishes vs. being elected by the constituency so that one might make decisions in their stead. The underlying theme there is “Are people smart enough to make the right decisions.” (I’d just say that some are and some aren’t, but it’s really not my place to judge somebody. Even if I am right, and he’s wrong, he might have a nice shiny shotgun. We have elected officials to play the buffer.) “Mobocracy” was something the eliteist feared. A replacement of King George was something the populist feared. A Republic was what they settled on.
“Democracy refers to the representative being responsible to and elected by the people. ”
Not true.
That would be a Representative Democracy. A Democracy is plain and simple “rule by the people”.
“Republican means the form of government as seen in the US”
Also not true. We live in a Constitutional Republic. There are many “Republics” that are nothing like what we have here.
“For the Civic challenged, look up Parliamentary”
We are not a Parliamentary system. I don’t know why you think that is important.
“Thus, the US is both democratic and republican”
True
But I would not put it quite that way.
I would put it more like we are a constitutional republic with a foot in representative democracy.
I will ignore your insults as I tend to agree with you on many things. Even with your approach. LOL But on this you are just simply wrong. And malren is even more incorrect.
Take a different look at the issue: Voters are well-informed enough to vote for and elect candidates to represent them in the local, state/provincial and federal governments, but are NOT well-informed enough to vote directly on an issue?
Seems like the politicians really do have contempt for us.
—
Slow down cowboy? Just how does this blog determine how fast I’m posting?
It’s not contempt. People don’t get involved in politics because they have contempt for others, and most don’t do it because they like the feeling of power, at least not at the Missoula County level; they get involved because they care about what goes on, and think they have the ability to do something.
Van Valkenberg’s comments were unfortunate, but hardly demeaning. He’s talking about the actualization of what people want. In order to bring it to fruition, there have to be changes. This isn’t an ideological matter as much as it is a question of workability.
If only they had left us white guys with property in charge.
#22, J
Would you care to point out ONE Democracy that has ever existed?
BTW, ancient Athens and Iceland’s Althang didn’t allow the vote to women, slaves or servants.
You want to split hairs. The US is a Republic. It has a President running the executive, a bicameral legislature providing laws, and an equal and independent judiciary. Contrast that with the Parliamentary system where the government both provides the laws and runs the executive.
FYI, while the Republican form of government appears more equal, it is the unbalanced Parliamentary system that has the most success. Outside of the US, most republican governments have fallen to dictatorships as the President has become overly powerful. Most current “democracies” use the Parliamentary system.
In democracies, we get to chose our representatives. There are very few restrictions on who may not be a representative. While any country may have either system, that does not make them democracies. Zimbabwe is an example of a Parliamentary style government that is not democratically elected.
You’ll see this if you vote Republican? What about the tax cuts in Massachusetts that the Democrat legislature ignored? Not to mention their campaign finance referendum, and refusing to put a gay marriage issue on the ballot as required by the Constitution? How about the California legislature ignoring the no gay marriage referendum? I’m sure we could go to other Democrat heavy states with referenda and find similar things. Montana is the surprise because it’s not a heavy Republican state. YOu would expect to find things where one party is arrogant with power, like Texas or Utah for the Republicans, and Mass, Calif, RI, or even Illinois for the Dems.
I think the problem is that you are using generic terms to describe specific details.
“BTW, ancient Athens and Iceland’s Althang didn’t allow the vote to women, slaves or servants.”
Doesn’t matter they were still democracies. Democracy means “rule by the people” Democracy does not mean fair, honest, or even. Women and slaves were not considered full citizens therefore they were not part of the democratic system.
“You want to split hairs. The US is a Republic”
Yes but it is a constitutional republic. Not just a republic
“FYI, while the Republican form of government appears more equal, it is the unbalanced Parliamentary system”
What? Not even close.
You seem to think that all republics are the same. That just isn’t true. They differ greatly.
“In democracies, we get to chose our representatives”
We live in a constitutional republic and WE get to choose our representatives as well.
“While any country may have either system, that does not make them democracies”
No kidding duh! That is because not all republics are the same. BTW Zimbabwe is a parliamentary republic not a democracy Do you see how there are lots of different ways both republics and democracies are set up.
I think you are just confused and it is easy to become that way. There are so many systems and some have very similar ideas. But I assure you we are a constitutional republic and our founding fathers meant it to be that way.