Very simple and absolute proof that all Gods don’t exist. Yes – you can prove a negative!
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Well, I guess that’s it then – all the theistic religions of the world will be closing up shop any day now. Once you convince them that “bigger is better” and “reality means everything” of course.
I’ll wait right here.
“god” is a conjectured thing not known to exist. It makes no sense to make the statement “I don’t believe in god.” That sentence structure acknowledges the existence of the thing whose existence is being denied. To me, the only sensible flavor of atheism is to not have a belief in the particular something not known to exist.
Your presentation presupposes the existence of something not known to exist. Starting an argument this way would not necessarily be fatal if reductio ad absurdum was then applied. But that was not the method.
PS to Marc —- who is your barber so others can avoid him?
Marc cuts his hair himself.
On Nov 7, I prayed to God to deliver us from the Clintons…
And it worked….PROOF!
“Reality”?!
Haven’t you heard? We’re all part of a giant computer simulation — NOT REAL! Therefore, “god” is (or must be) a computer that we all derive our “reality” from.
… And choosing to believe in a deity is about as foolish as you can get — which might explain the shape the world is in.
Anyone who praises Felon Musk is not living in reality.
Sadly…. like god….numbers don’t exist. Numbers are a human construct created by syllogism. ie: “If–Then.” Its only once you propose that 1 plus 1 equals 2 that you wind up with the mathematics of Quantum Mechanics.
Numbers, unlike god, just happen to correlate very closely to what we see in the universe. …………. but ………… its not proof.
I think the distinction was first presented in High School?
I won’t do it….but I wonder what google would turn up for (number theory) or some close subject?
I think what destroys god is the Epicurean Paradox. “Gods” as may be defined could exist, but not gods as commonly understood and presented in our culture and history. ie: The Greek and Roman gods could exist because they are so flawed. Not so Yahwey…supposedly… which is why “logically” he can’t exist. Some other defective version…yes. but not him.
Science was invented scrub human thought and reasoning from the knowledge discovery process.
The short version of science:
You: I have an idea.
Me: Prove it in a reproducible way or I won’t listen.
You: Here is it.
Me: Submit it to your peers, for others to inspect to find false assumptions or extra variables you did not consider.
It is human to err. We do it all the time.
It is also human to be illogical, to be undereducated, to make stupid makes, to seek to only collect evidence supporting your view and then ignoring evidence against your view.
Would you be impressed by the smartest coachroach in the world?
Change “smartest cockroach” to “smartest human” and maybe in the scale of things there is little difference.
A cockroach eats, breathes, excretes waste matter, reproduces, rests, explores.
We are little different except we are somewhat better at it.
But not by that all that much in the scheme of things.
Successful humans have a tendency to get comfortable, lazy and stop trying.
You dithered a bit too long. some hoomans are a notch or two above cockroaches. Not all…. but enough.
The “idea” I am reminded of is that “culture” is a non-dna based way to carry knowledge/experience of one generation to the next.
It really got going with the printed word. The printed word: something that cockroaches eat and humans burn.
Culture is DNA for us humans.
It may be more important than our actual DNA.
+1 Bobbo for noticing that, as it how we hand down our behaviors.
Possibly the only thing that gives us hope, when we do it right …
Religious conversations are boring; they go like this …
Guy: While having no special knowledge, here is what is going!
Science killed philosophy, because it proved that weak-sauce human reasoning means nothing.
We discover inconceivable things about the world, the universe, biology every day — often things that make no sense at and defy logic.
Show me a philosopher and I’ll show you a guy who over-estimates what human thought can actually figure out.
(Unless the philosopher is one of the hard skeptic philosophers that specialize in how feeble and useless human thought is at unraveling knowledge).
Human reasoning created God but then created Science===giving humans a choice.
Thats a good thing, except for those who don’t choose wisely. Emotions and habit over testing and open mindedness. Kinda like conservative vs liberal.
Humans have no choices.
You are made of chemicals and physics apply to you, right?
If so, aren’t all your actions a result of cause and effect and your current set of stimuli?
Or are a special case where your actions and choices are not the result of chemistry and physics?
That was a strong position before Quantum Uncertainty. Humans “look like” we exercise free will. That is far more predictive (the basis of Science) than any other position. It will do until something better comes along.
Things we don’t fully understand, we label “random”, “chaos” or “uncertain”.
Quantum Uncertainty means it is the human that is uncertain, because we can’t know the state and position at the same time.
But the particle fucking knows.
So there is nothing uncertain about it.
It is only uncertain to us humans.
Well HM…. thats “rhetoric” on par with Disney’s Talking Snowflakes.
I don’t, but other experts do understand uncertainty quite well….its what makes gps work. Even they however don’t have a firm fix on the mystery that is human consciousness.
All in good time………… if we don’t melt.
((Yeah….I know…. could be. But I’m refering to snow flakes.))
Except in AGW where predictions fail to come to fruition or are so far in the future that most people who are presently around to test the validity of said predictions would be six feet under.
Thats the nature of the subject…. like evolution. Generally not observable in a lifetime….but still exists.
I’d love to discuss, because you are fatally wrong, but AGW is banned from this forum.
And Human self-interests in AGW claim things in the name of science in the absence of applying the scientific method, etc.
I hope Marc was smoking weed reach those conclusions.
Or working out that logic.
Congrats to California for legalization of marijuana.
Not because I think marijuana is any good. But rather it will help destroy organized crime some people there will no longer be profit.
That plus people should be free to make their own choices, even the bad ones. They will any way and keeping the government out of it is a good thing.
And locking up kids for marijuana is only part of a cannibal state.
If Marc wasn’t high when reaching this conclusion, he over-estimates human (lack of) intelligence.
All human progress comes from overcoming our lack of intelligence by implementing systems to penalize stupidity (i.e. require vaccinations, require court trials, you have a right to hold a minority opinion, you have the right to think or speak offensive thoughts).
Marc,
Gotta love your perseverance, you are following in the footsteps of the great masters.
David Hume, the great Philosopher, pondered this question in 1779. His conclusion has withstood 238 years of scrutiny.
Read it, the conclusion is surprising, unassailable, and somewhat surprising to Atheist and Theist alike.
It’s not long, a fantastic read, and beautiful thinking.
http://davidhume.org/texts/dnr.html
D12.31: “It is an absurdity to believe that the Deity has human passions, and one of the lowest of human passions, a restless appetite for applause. It is an inconsistency to believe, that, since the Deity has this human passion, he has not others also; and in particular, a disregard to the opinions of creatures, so much inferior.”
There he goes again: making up his own god as if the Bible was not controlling.
The Epicurean Paradox: The Abrahamic versions of God cannot exist “as described.” No amount of lip flapping can change that.
Damn right bobbo, NO amount of lip service can prove or disprove the unprovable.
Hey, Happy New Year bobbo.
Glad to see at least one person understands, jpfitz, and I’m glad for it.
Hume’s realization?
A) You cannot prove God exist.
B) You cannot prove God doesn’t exist.
QED
I think I understand this. Jay Peterman is real. His biography is not. Now, you Kramer are real. But your life is Peterman’s. Now the bus tour, which is real, takes you to places that, while they are real, they are not real in sense that they did not *really* happen to the *real* Peterman which is you.
Understand?
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Immigration …the time to read or check out the content or sites we have linked to below the… cfbkkeaccadd
I suggest this blog be renamed from “Dvorak Uncensored” to “Perkel Unhinged”. Dvorak has left the building. Looks like I’m off to “verysmartbrothas”.
You made me check out http://verysmartbruthas.com
🙄
What did you go and do that for? Sheesh!
Misspelled it. Try http://verysmartbrothas.com/
I stopped listening after ‘You can prove 2+2 does not equal 5 therefore you can prove a negative.’
Really there has to be a God to produce someone who says the system is rigged by Hillary, he is mad as Hell and isn’t going to take it anymore, and then votes for Hillary.
To me this is perhaps the strangest post to ever be published on Dvorak Uncensored; in fact, it strikes me as weird. The logic appears flawed. It clearly would not have been acceptable to my professor who taught “Patterns of Logic” to me as freshman. Interesting subject, but . . .
Best of luck on you next post.
I am going out on a limb here, Marc either has a real fear of hell, or, Marc’s anticipation Trump’s presidency has him smoking the ganga.
I’m afraid it’s the former. On a recent No Agenda, Dvorak let it loose that Marc is soon to shed this mortal coil.
This sounds like preaching for some church I heard of.
Where is the technology on this blog.
Crazy John Macafee doesn’t count.
@Bobbo …
Your humanocentric view of quantum physics — i.e. us lowly humans are prevented from figuring it out — is lame.
If you want to be a proper atheist, a proper atheist doesn’t view humans as the center of the universe. Humans as the center of the universe is a theological thing (most religions state the universe was made for us).
So you can’t say you have “free will” just because us backwater hoomans can’t make predictions.
Whether or not a human can or cannot make a prediction because certain information is at a minimum denied to our observations with our current understanding
— which doesn’t have shit to do with the fixed rules of physics.
Just because a human can’t acquire enough information to make a prediction, doesn’t mean that physics isn’t fixed. It merely means humans can’t fully predict.
Which gets us back to square one ….
If there is no God or gods and no unknown factors that would allow free will …
Then you and I are not actually “thinking”, but just going through the motions of chemistry and physics …
… which are fixed cause and effect, stimuli and reaction — therefore there is “free will” nor ever could be.
Any existence of “free will” requires some outside-the-box factor — like the existence of a God or gods or some external factor (a simulation) to provide for a mechanism that would enable “free will”.
Although an interesting concept, and while a former atheist but now an agnostic (very open mind) — I have seen no evidence to suggest humans have “free will”.
Humans are the ultimate herd animal, love social media, popularity and mob justice — why?
Because humans live in constant fear and they thing they most abhor is thinking, and desperately cling to someone else to tell them what to think.
So yeah, “free will”? No.
A human wouldn’t exercise such a thing even if presented the opportunity.
HM: agnosticism is never given such a full throated defense. something else is on display, having little if anything to do with what I posted, and nothing to do with Marc’s post just to go Full Dvorak.
What strikes me mainly is you think that in a predetermined universe any god might yet still have free will. Why would that be? its the old challenge: then how did God come to be and “always existed” is just a dodge.
If something is predetermined for real, but you don’t know and can never know the “rules” for the calculations of the outcome…. why is that not free will or close enough?….. I call it free will.
Seems to me, in the main, you have an abhorrence of ambiguity. I assume you, me, and everyone else think and take your life experiences all the same. It looks, feels, and appears to be free will. Whatever/however you want to express that experience….. I call it free will.
Now: you choose whether or not to agree…… I call it free will.
Most of life is not about what it is….. but how we treat it. I call it free will.
The mantra is over.
*** Hmeyers said ***********
… Any existence of “free will” requires some outside-the-box factor — like the existence of a God or gods or some external factor (a simulation) to provide for a mechanism that would enable “free will”. [And then, astoundingly, Hmeyers admits that he has no free will]
***************************
It’s simple, if the universe is deterministic (all processes and reactions have knowable outcomes from the big bang on) then there is no free will. And I’m typing this as a theoretically knowable outcome 13.7 billion years ago.
Thankfully, quantum physics indicates that some individual events are not predictable. This “unknowableness” allows for free will. If you don’t believe this, then kill yourself now because it is what you were doomed to do 13.7 billion years ago and now is the time.
And the existence of an omnipotent god precludes the existence of free will. You have it backwards.
I forgot that gem: God gave us free will, BUT wants us to choose him and will punish us forever if we don’t…… even as he knows what we will do….because he made the universe and everything in it.
Thats a heavy rock.
I am impressed about one thing: he is wise enough to store stuff in clear containers
I hate shoe box and coffee can storage
I also appreciate someone who cuts his own hair
The internet is really wonderful, because it allows the crazy uncle upstairs to come out and shine
Thank you Uncle Marc