The U.S. government does not represent the interests of the majority of the country’s citizens, but is instead ruled by those of the rich and powerful, a new study from Princeton and Northwestern universities has concluded.
The report, “Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens” (PDF), used extensive policy data collected between 1981 and 2002 to empirically determine the state of the U.S. political system.
After sifting through nearly 1,800 U.S. policies enacted in that period and comparing them to the expressed preferences of average Americans (50th percentile of income), affluent Americans (90th percentile), and large special interests groups, researchers concluded that the U.S. is dominated by its economic elite.
Discussions about politics and class always remind me of Dennis the Peasant
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE
I wish this some Hollywood production, but sadly; it’s real enough!
Ironic how a Hollywood actor started U.S. on this path of corporate welfare and transferring the countries wealth to the 1%.
This is not your fathers America and we are being trained by corporations, no one is your bothers keeper!
Only thing stopping this from completely happening is our vote!
Hello, “noname”.
I as your mental health professional, I’m sorry to have to tell you that, in technical terms, you’re full of ‘it’.
As an unknown anarchist said long ago,
“If voting changed anything, they’d make it illegal”[actually Emma Goldman].
And as said by P. J. O’Rourke—
“Don’t vote; it only encourages the b*st*rds.”
And let’s not forget Stalin’s immortal words; “It doesn’t matter how the votes are cast, but how they’re counted.”
Bottom line—voting is a waste of time because of vote fraud. In my lifetime, there are a number of questionable “election results”, but I think the most memorable was 1960, when “America” lost the “election” via vote fraud. Even allowing that Kennedy was [perhaps] the better candidate, it wasn’t fair to “the voters” that the “election” was stolen.
As long as the “elections”, & their results, are untrustworthy, even the ‘government’ is a fraud.
So, *IF* you seriously ‘believe’ “Only thing stopping this from completely happening is our vote!”, you are seriously self-deluded.
Seek professional help at the earliest opportunity.
Have a GREAT day, Neighbor!
Oh how cute, a voting fraud “truther”.
The Dubya Justice Department (not exactly a hotbed of liberals) did a 5-year study and found NO significant “at-the-polls” voting fraud in the last few decades. The same results that every non-partisan study has found for decades.
You’ll be getting your tinfoil hat in the mail, if you don’t already have it.
Cynics like O’Rourke are among the saddest people around.
poor depressed sl0j0n,
Who listens to cynics or even you anyway?
I am glad your fatalism stops you from exercising your right to vote; it just gives my vote that much more weight!
Good luck with your fatalism doom and gloom, I can’t change anything outlook.
Ha, You go girl!
Finally. A clean, well-lit place to be fingered by DIY gynecologists who just happen to be
blackmembers of everyones’ favorite First Family.Because, at Universal Gyno “”It’s a multi-purpose shape — A box.
Barry, there’s some lovely filth down here!
Hmmm. I think I could be at the wrong luncheon. Again. I’m late and skantily clothed in a diaper; Biden’s in the corner modeling his rocket pube theory of gay; Some bitch just threw a shoe at the kitchen/State Department indentured help… Sometimes, I wish I were dreaming.
Oh. Very Mature, guys. Real founding-father material. That is how you chose to use the last vestige of your sacred free speech??
Why do people hate libertarians? … Now, push.
Its not a “big” club. 1%—.1%? Pick your own demarcation.
Why the 99% think it is a form of freedom NOT to have a death tax for estates over — again pick any level–used to be 500K and in short BushtheRetard Doublestep it is now 6 million I think (whatever) is the real trick.
OF COURSE====THE RICH are out for themselves. All people are……………………..((HAH!!)) ……………….. except for the 99% in the USA that think the death tax should be raised to 50 Million or done away with entirely because you know, like Joe the Plumber, there is a disconnect between personal greed and personal wealth===and the distance between the two.
Silly Hoomans. YOU deserve the coming deluge.
Beer and Waffles.
I can see a case for a 100% death tax, to take away your money.
On the other hand, I’d rather not make it easier for big corporations to buy up family farms and businesses at deep discounts.
“family farms and businesses” ///// Good one.
In the PDF, I can’t find any list of policies. It appears they are saying the business groups are united, the public is not, so the businesses get their way. It also looks like their is an assumption that public interest groups represent the interests of the public and not the Left.
Back the F__K up! Let’s re-read that again…
“… a new study from Princeton and Northwestern universities has concluded.
Does ANYONE see a potential financial conflict of interest here? Am I supposed to assume the people who did this study like biting the had that feeds them?!
Talk about DUH!
Who needs a stinking study to see the ever present truth all around everyone in this new America!
Maybe you just too young to know what America used to be, before Reagan and a Newt named Gringage!
All the study does is confirm truth everyone already knows!
Which one should “we” choose?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forms_of_government
Obvious, the one that gives “us” the most stuff!
Much better than what we have and by inference what you support against your own interests: one that takes stuff from all of us and keeps it for themselves: they earned it, and we didn’t?
Silly Hooman.
And yet, non-rich people still support Republicans, whose interests are directly lined up with the oligarchy. At least the liberal wing of the Democratic party, small as it is, still tries to work in the interests of the non-rich.
And after 50 years of telling the poor that the Democrats are “here to help,” they are still poor.
Maybe it’s time to rethink the entire Republicrat system.
Kleptocracy (got the right topic this time 😉
This just in: Water is wet, Fire is hot, and Ice is cold.
You’re one of those *deniers*, aren’t you?
…And people are crazy…
All y’all ^^^ ,and personages like y’all, are what’s fucking up the world for the rest of us!
No shit.
The difference between liberals and conservatives is that conservatives just hunker down and accept their fate, lick the boots of the rich (Republican Party) and kick in the head the ones even poorer than them (ex. food stamp recipients).
At least some of the liberals and Democrats, like Elizabeth Warren, are trying to fight against the oligarchy. And you conservative idiots spit on them, when they’re trying to make things better for you and me and all of the 99%.
Whatta bunch of morans.
Hah, hah—what sup Phydeau? You’ve always been admirably liberal but your posts have taken a turn to the left and the beligerent. I enjoy it of course, its like reading what I would want to say before I think it.
I do hope all is well with you….. and if its not ….. “this too will pass” like a bad taco from… you know who.
Hey Bobbo, just a little grumpy lately what with the Supremes making it legal for billionaires to throw money at elections… :/
Glad for you, sad for the USA. Yes, the Supremes are one taco that has caught in the throat. Very much the Oligarching of America.
Yes–an activist conservative court. I wonder ((no I don’t)) how many “conservative thinkers” think our Founding Fathers would have equated money with speech and corporations with people?
Huh conservatives????====How many?
Does remind me of the large (faux corporate and RICH) slave owners of the South. They had lots of slaves and argued for and got extra votes for that. ABSOLUTELY no different than today. If you have lots of money, you want extra votes based on that. Same thing: same justice.
Hey! What about anal warts? I’m not saying…. but I think every anal wart should allow for another vote as well. It would certainly make it clear who and what was actually running the country.
Ha, ha—I crack myself up.
Some of this shit will be hard to put back in the toothpaste tube though. Not pretty: for a long time.
Ah Elizabeth Warren, another lying dirtbag Liberal parasite…or just maybe the first 1/64th Native American President?
Har, idiot.
90% of Americans won’t believe the study. 90% of politicians, pundits and priests deny it. 99.9% of Americans will never read it.
The masters of our democratic republic needn’t lose any sleep.
On topic, came across Judge Napolitano re “When Psychopaths Rule The World”. 96 min long, but it starts off interestingly about the tension between freedom and gubment. It will take a day to get thru it. I don’t like the Judge much, but he’s not always wrong.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2_cpau0_5-w
((There is a whole education on You Tube…. good for those of us too busy the first time?))
Government of the 1%, by the 1% for the 99% of us (cause the 1% is ABOVE THE LAW !!!) !!!
Three million people in this club? 300k, keep going.
30k easily bounds any broad grouping of the elite.
It’s the 1% of the 1%.
Good thing I am part of the 1%.
Excellent!–a 1% huh? I only personally know 3%’ers. Boy, that is one driven insanely jealous group of high achievers! Ha, ha.
So—you are all good with living with security guards behind gates being driven around behind bullet proof glass huh?
Kiddies being kidnapped, not able to go out in public???
Does the $$$ mean that much to you…. sitting in the bank where you can’t go during business hours??
Ha, ha. Silly RICH hoomans. Don’t have a clue.
I knew you would take the bait, bobbo.
It’s like hooking a fish in a barrel.
I had no idea you are aware of what it is like to be a rich capitalist pig.
Go invent a search engine or a killer app and take a walk on the wild side.
You may need to consider setting aside that twelve-pack of suds for a few years.
Ha, ha.
Well done Orchi. Your balls hang low.
I don’t think the RICH you pretend to be a member of have such a comedic appreciation. Their underlings of the 3% certainly do not.
Still, I note you don’t answer the question, and that is the whole point. Hard to believe your kiddies and grandkiddies aren’t exactly yourself?
………….and therein lies the rub.
I have a beef with the top .01%
They have 100 times the wealth of the 1%.
It is simply not fair.
Somebody must do something about it, although I seriously doubt the .01% give a flying flip about the 1%.
Such is life.
Hey Poser: the relationship is logarithmic.
Well now, how many presidents can be said to have come from or represented the 99%? Andrew Jackson, Lincoln, Grant, Truman, maybe Eisenhower, perhaps Carter. I think it pretty much ends there, and even among those, many sought to become the 1%.
I think what matters more is that those elected who choose to *leverage* power to favor the entire nation and not just 1%; which are a rare breed indeed. I would put FDR in that camp, JFK, and Ford.
It’s going to take more then a good president to redirect the government to protect the interest the 99% and remake a government for the people by the people!
We need serious election reform with constitutional amendments!
Let’s start with:
(1) NO campaign contribution > $200 from any individual in one year.
(1) NO campaign contribution can be made to a candidate more than 120 days prior to the Primary/General Election Dates.
(2) PAC’s are NOT to be granted tax-exempt status by the IRS, and any non-profit organization that uses their funding shall lose their tax-exempt status.
(3) All paid lobbyists shall be outlawed.
(4) NO third party paid for campaigning (separate PAC ads, corporate ads, etc.) for/against any candidate shall be allowed at any time during or before the election season.
(5) Party Organizations shall NOT raise money for or donate to any candidates.
Interesting list of picks. All having to do with money. I’d shake it up a bit with some non $$ issues like having non-partisan district drawing provisions, cumulative voting, gubment provided forums for debates (ie free air time). Also interesting how some NON gubment/political issues impact politics/society like the consolidation of media, the non-payment of corp income tax, etc .
I’m just expanding on your excellent start: something has to change.
I’d like to add:
1. Abolish the Electoral College (Repeal Amendment 12)
2. Outlawing Gerrymandering, configuring electoral districts to statistically favor any party.
This wouldn’t be a problem if the government didn’t have so much money to control.
Ask yourself why big business wants to control the government?
Is it because they think they can do a better job or because there is money to be made?
Starve the beast and there will be no need to bribe anyone – there won’t be any money diverted their way.
Cute. Solutions that totally ignore the context of the issue:
When you starve “the Beast” you are in fact starving people/cutting off heating oil/withdrawing educational support/….etc.
You really don’t think thru even the immediate impact of your dogma.
You could do so much better.
Thanks for the worship.
Yessss….. Cut off the energy and let them eat Common Core — they’ll deplete themselves arguing about why we spend trillions on global warming and no one cares. Did they find that plane yet?
LibertyLover asks us to:
“Ask yourself why big business wants to control the government?”
Well..
Simple, business wants more money, pure and simple. The natural inclination of a business (a ruthless capitalistic one) is to be a Monopoly; be in business with no competition!
Same reason business doesn’t want Unions, people be damned and more profits for me!
Business wants “caveat emptor”, when it controls the media (flow of product truth information and flow of office candidate truth information). Business certainly doesn’t want a governmental “cave canem” (people’s watchdog). Same reason why robbers avoid houses with dogs!!
In fact, if republicans have/had their way, we would be a third world Oligarchy with no minimum-wage, no FDA, EPA, NTSB, FAA…..
Can you imagine America with no child labor laws? (LibertyLover probably doesn’t want labor laws so as to maximize business freedoms and people be damned)
Do you remember the Cuyahoga River “the river that caught fire”? (LibertyLover rightly believes that was governments fault and wrongly believes business can do no wrong)
Did you ever learn about the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire?
Ask David H. Koch after surviving USAir Flight 1493 crash in 1991 if we should abolish the NTSB and FAA…
Should we not have national parks?
Was Eisenhower wrong for supporting the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956 and its new taxes on fuel, automobiles, trucks, and tires?
Did George Washington fight for Big Business Freedoms?
I can go on… but I think a reasonable person gets it!
Wow, you just don’t get it, do you?
In your opinion, what is the purpose of government?
Poor clueless LibertyLover, asking me to educate him, sad!
Government purpose is simple and nothing more then: “For the people by the people.”
If people want “big” government, so be it!!
You sir, don’t get what AMERICA was founded on and for!
“We the people” make the government we want, get it?
Big Business wants to buy government and deprive people of the only protection they have.
LibertyLover “Big Business” plan is to run this country like a “coal mining town company store”, ensnaring and ensuring 99% of Americans stay in an endless cycle of debt and poverty. Where all the wealth accumulation and power goes to the top 1% and for the bottom 99%, continual economic indentured servitude! That is all you offer, nothing more; just look at the last 30yrs!
LibertyLover is all for economic class warfare!
There is “NO” Liberty and Justice for all with anything LibertyLover promotes!
LibertyLover is all about preserving the country’s wealth extraction by Big Business over the last 30yrs; moving it offshore to avoid taxes and preserving Big Business positions of economic power while pushing economic indentured servitude for the 99%, much as fascism did!
Your words and ideology betray your true intent!
“Fascism by any other name is still fascism”, LibertyLover!
Jesus Christ, did you even read my previous post?
I was not supporting big business.
You, sir, are a troll.
Oh I am so hurt, you calling me a troll…
The pain, the agony ooh the horror … oh Mr. LibertyLover called me a name…
Gee, Mr. LibertyLover you just a regular Joe, honest hard working …. yea right!
Paul Krugman is getting $225,000 for a nine-month stint to study income inequality.
This just cracks me up. Yeah, people seem really concerned about it.
https://documentcloud.org/documents/1112846-4-9-14-mr10634-res.html#document/p3
Very interesting link. ….. Just what the “heck” is going on? WHO is actually paying that money? ie–who paid the school to pay Krugman?
School being paid for something else. Lots of live tangents there. I don’t have a problem with Krugman being paid to ….. well, to “do” what????
Something stinks. People going from politics/opinion into University System/Corporate world. Yes, something stinks.
Thanks for the worship.
I wonder if he’ll come to a conclusion based on single-parent families being part of the problem. Probably not based on what happened to Moynihan.
http://tinyurl.com/mdaalxm
LibertyLover
You really need to read more! I recommend reading Thomas Piketty “Capital”. It will make a man out of the ranting and raving child you are!
Yeah, yeah, he thinks people should work for free. I’ve read him.
The problem with that theory however, is that no one will give their all if they only have to do the minimum needed to get by.
You really expect me to put in 60 hours a week designing a process that makes 50 people more efficient? Why should I bother if I’m not going to see any benefits from my ideas and hard work?
Seriously, give me a reason to work harder than I have to.
Hum LibertyLover, ever the company clown for Big Business; again is demonstrating another self-example of your illiteracy! LibertyLover misunderstanding and misconstruing raising the minimum wage as working for free!
Is that how you answer questions? By insulting?
You do realize that is the M.O. for liberal mouthpieces who have no facts or logic to back up their claims, don’t you?
Convince me. Give me a reason to bust my butt for free.
I haven’t read that book, it sounds pretty heavy but its getting good reviews. On that very slim basis alone, I would be shocked if the author said people should, or would be happy to work for free.
You got a copy and paste to that effect Loser?—-No, I didn’t think so.
Some people will work for free when they are dedicated or enthralled. Doctors, priests, actors, aid workers, conservationists, pilots, poets, musicians etc. Course… you do have to eat. But in the main: yes, the proposition that people won’t work for free is so basic as to not warrant a response except mild disgust.
What else ya got Loser?
Thank you for the worship!
Hum, “Give me a reason to bust my butt for free.”
I am not, nor anyone offering you free-work or volunteer work!
If you indeed can “makes 50 people more efficient” and there is a market for “your opined solution”….then get a real job that pays more than minimum-wage! The only person stopping you is yourself!
Personally, I have found most programmers are egotistical illogical shitty computers programmers, and better at programming dialog boxes with barely intelligible question to program people to adapt to their crappy software and get them to do a job a computer program was meant to do! These same thin skinned joke-of-a-programmer believe and claim they made “50 people more efficient”, yeah right!
windows has stopped responding and must be deleted.
would you like to send the error report
now
as soon as possible
upon reinstallation of windows
later
never stop reminding me of this again
noname,
I am not, nor anyone offering you free-work or volunteer work!
You implied it by suggesting I read and learn from someone who advocates taxing anyone making over $1M a year at the 80% rate.
This man’s sole goal is Equality of Outcome, not Equality of Opportunity. He has stated as much. There is reason he is not invited to speak at anything other than liberal think tanks.
If you indeed can “makes 50 people more efficient” and there is a market for “your opined solution”….then get a real job that pays more than minimum-wage!
I have. I own my own company. I automate manufacturing processes. I have engineers who work for me. I designed systems that help other companies produce 50% to 300% more product for the same labor costs.
I charge dearly for this service, and my customers pay it.
Personally, I have found most programmers are egotistical illogical shitty computers programmers, and better at programming dialog boxes with barely intelligible question to program people to adapt to their crappy software and get them to do a job a computer program was meant to do! These same thin skinned joke-of-a-programmer believe and claim they made “50 people more efficient”, yeah right!
Agreed. However, my company is not in that category. Over 70% of my customers are repeat customers. If I couldn’t do what I claim to do, I wouldn’t be called back in.
The only place where you can fail and stay in business is if you have government contracts and/or are considered too big to fail. Look at GM – now they want their government buddies to make them exempt from product liability. You heard it here first – they will get their way. This is the government you are defending!
I do not do business with the government. Actually, I just lied. I have done work for small municipalities – water/wastewater – but nothing at the State or Federal level. I turn them away.
Before you start accusing someone of being a big business shill for the government, you might want to find out exactly who it is you are accusing.
I am a Libertarian. I am not a Republican or a Democrat. I do not believe the government is competent enough to handle a $3T dollar budget. Just because I believe that does not mean I believe that all regulation is bad. OF COURSE, we need watchdogs. Unfortunately, these watchdogs have caviar appetites, and they are going to slide their legs under the table with the caviar. I have been accused of being a purist and not thinking pragmatically. Well, is it not pragmatic to realize that what we have been doing for the last 50 years has not worked?
Ha, “You implied it”…. what a typical “big business” dullard.
You are indeed just another cheatoo eating programmer. Sorry, but judging by your reasoning logic, your programs must really suck too…another champion of the overuse of dialog boxes to program people instead of computers.
A simple concept like our “Government purpose is simple and nothing more then: “For the people by the people.” is well beyond your diminished and stunted comprehension capabilities, that’s obvious! I can see why you became a business “programmer”.
You’re just another typical business troll who takes all the things, like roads, state services, public education, clean air… for granted. Craps over everything not your own and easily cries when confronted.
You quality of software metric is so telling, “Over 70% of my customers are repeat customers”… It sounds like you don’t look much further than your accounting spreadsheets to manage your business or software. Between your abuse of reasoning, poor equivocation skills and sales like pitching, your software must really suck! No doubt, as a sign of quality, you repackage others work, spout about how hard the effort was (overstate the resources involved) and over charge for a product you spontaneously labeled as “quality” goods…
I’d trust our government to do its job way more than I would trust your business to produce a quality product.
And yes, we should increase taxes on capital gains, the wealthy and the inheritance tax, allot!
Ha, “You implied it”…. what a typical “big business” dullard.
Sounds like you are jealous to me.
You are indeed just another cheatoo eating programmer. Sorry, but judging by your reasoning logic, your programs must really suck too…another champion of the overuse of dialog boxes to program people instead of computers.
What makes you think that?
A simple concept like our “Government purpose is simple and nothing more then: “For the people by the people.” is well beyond your diminished and stunted comprehension capabilities, that’s obvious! I can see why you became a business “programmer”.
We don’t program business systems. We develop and streamline manufacturing processes. There is software involved, but it is only part of it.
You’re just another typical business troll who takes all the things, like roads, state services, public education, clean air… for granted. Craps over everything not your own and easily cries when confronted.
Not really. I pay the taxes the government says I should pay. What more would you expect?
You quality of software metric is so telling, “Over 70% of my customers are repeat customers”… It sounds like you don’t look much further than your accounting spreadsheets to manage your business or software
Well, we’ve been in business over a decade. You appear to have the answers, so what metric would you recommend I use?
No doubt, as a sign of quality, you repackage others work, spout about how hard the effort was (overstate the resources involved) and over charge for a product you spontaneously labeled as “quality” goods…
Now that is definitely jealousy talking. You don’t have the answers (or the brains) to develop something on your own, so I’ve obviously cheated.
I pity you, going through life wishing you were smart enough to make it on your own without depending on the government to take care of you.
I’ll bet you’re one of those people who sees a man with a good looking woman and immediately thinks the only reason he got her is because he’s rich.
I’d trust our government to do its job way more than I would trust your business to produce a quality product.
Government couldn’t pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were on the heel.
And yes, we should increase taxes on capital gains, the wealthy and the inheritance tax, allot!
Well, talk to your congressman. That’s easier than actually trying to make something of yourself.
So sad LibertyLover, you only wish I was “jealous” of you!
People of your ilk, actually think people have reason to be jealous of you, what a troll!
No, truthfully, I look down on you!
Speaking of innovation, I do my own work, and probably have more patents and inventions then you will ever have!
Sounds like you don’t create, you just have your lackeys do that and claim credit.
Maybe if you had 5 ppb of the talent of a Steve Jobs, I could respect you!
I hope you don’t think I should be impressed by “I automate manufacturing processes.”….
So sad LibertyLover, you only wish I was “jealous” of you!
On the contrary. I wish you would stand on your own feet. Jealousy does nothing more than make you want my stuff, and that scares me.
I don’t fear those who can think for themselves.
I fear those who let others do their thinking for them. You scare me.
Speaking of innovation, I do my own work, and probably have more patents and inventions then you will ever have!
I call Bullshit.
If you had the the kind of knowledge it takes to develop new ideas, you wouldn’t need to take them from others.
Sounds like you don’t create, you just have your lackeys do that and claim credit.
My engineers implement my ideas. They offer improvements, and if they work out, we integrate them. My engineers are well-compensated.
I hope you don’t think I should be impressed by “I automate manufacturing processes.”….
I don’t try to impress people. I don’t require other people’s respect, because I respect myself.
Well, we’ve been in business over a decade. You appear to have the answers, so what metric would you recommend I use?
BTW . . . are you going to answer this or hide your head in a hole and pretend it will go away?
On the merits……..I give this exchange to LL. no name, I think you make a cardinal error. In the main, I think we must take others at their word unless those words reveal a tragic error? I believe LL is a successful software related some kind of business guy. Why not? I have nothing to counter his words.
I too have owned several businesses. 70% return customers for a boutique service? Put me down as jealous, and respectful.
For me, it shows how various skills and abilities are completely compartmentalized. Thats fun to play with.
“PURE xyz” is always a fault.
Ain’t that amusing?
If your scared, all the more better!
So you are a bully.
I still have to ask, besides your obvious delusions of grandeur, what makes you think I am jealous of you?
You want my stuff.
Why do you want my stuff?
LibertyLover you’re the classic hoot!
I got to ask, what it is about so many “so called rich” that they must always play the victim, always put upon to contribute a progressive share to a society they benefit from (but dare not give credit to anything or anyone other than themselves)!
What a hoot. Don’t ask me to feel sorry for a societal parasite always looking to thieve and extract from society at the expense of others!
You are indeed a classic thief and bully, destroying society and America!
Your certainly not a Warren Buffett!
Why don’t you go and live in Russia with others of your kind, kleptocrats?
But your paranoia, imaginary boogeyman and self-victimization do make me laugh! Like I said, the more the merrier! If you think me mean for that, so be it!!
It is telling how you deflect instead of answering a very simple question: “Please explain what the difference is between your “Business” and “Big Business”?”
But, I knew this question would be more than a simpleton like you could handle. You could never work for me, you just too dumb!
LibertyLover you’re the classic hoot!
[snip]
Ignoratio elenchi. Typical response from someone who knows they’ve been caught with their britches down.
Tell me why you want my stuff. Tell me why I should pay more.
LibertyLover, Ha, this is the best you can do, describe yourself and avoid my simple question?
You’re so entertaining, ever the classic hoot!
Since you can’t answer my question, I’ll answer yours.
“Tell me why I should pay more.”
Well, just American history alone shows the moral and practical benefits all Americans experienced when tax rate are more progressive. Yes, a better America is why taxes need to be more progressive!
I look forward to your next comedy routine. 🙂
I have no problem with a progressive tax.
I have a serious problem with an overly aggressive tax.
We have a progressive tax system now.
Tell me why I should pay 80%.
LibertyLover you will have to quote specifically where I said you need to pay 80% in taxes; if you want people to take you seriously! So far, all you have done is project 80% out from your neurotic self!
Truth be told, I might want you (specifically you) to pay more or less than 80%, but; the specific amount I never said.
How can you even keep track of your bushiness if you can’t even track a simple conversation?
LibertyLover you will have to quote specifically where I said you need to pay 80% in taxes;
You told me to read Piketty. That is what he advocates.
He believes everyone should make the same amount of money; individual expertise is a myth (according to him) and therefore individuals should not be rewarded based on this assumed expertise.
IOW, Equality of Outcome, not Equality of Opportunity.
If you want people to take you seriously, perhaps you should know from whence you speak.
I can see why others regarded you as a joke!
You conflate and imagine you own facts to suit yourself, “He believes everyone should make the same amount of money”.
You are really going to have to prove that quote exist by citing the quote from Piketty book!
But since that quote is not there, you’ll just have to again pull something else out of your ass (that part you, you use to think with), like much of everything else you do and say!
The comedy hour has only just begun!
“He believes everyone should make the same amount of money; individual expertise is a myth (according to him) and therefore individuals should not be rewarded based on this assumed expertise.”.
Well, short of quoting three chapters where he discusses it, I’ll have to take a single paragraph from your own link (like you taking one part of an entire sentence from my post):
“[…]Mr. Piketty believes that only the productivity of low-wage workers can be measured objectively. […] These workers are therefore entitled to what they earn. He finds the productivity of high-income earners harder to measure and believes their wages are in the end “largely arbitrary.” They reflect an “ideological construct” more than merit.“
Wow that’s your quote, you even highlighted and bolded it! Maybe you indeed have some skills, not.
From that, you rant “Equality of Outcome, not Equality of Opportunity.”
Poor LibertyLover show the world he’s not good at math, reading and simple reasoning!
Let me make it easy for you to rant some more (for my amusement, of course). I agree that the 1% should pay tax at 80%!!
You know, the great thing about the 99%, they have 99% of the votes! I can see why you’re so paranoid of the government and people.
Please rant on!
Thank you for admitting you are not an American.
Please leave.
Is that your retort, I am not an American.
Ever the delusional one, aren’t you!
Well, just don’t let my boss know. They might have to pull my clearances and take away those medals.
At least, unlike you, I am not a demonstrated kleptocrat.
LibertyLover, you know you want to; go ahead and live in Russia with the rest of your kleptocrats kind.
The Founding Fathers didn’t form a democracy where 99% of the population can eat the other 1% simply by voting. Soviet Russia did that in 1917.
The Founding Fathers formed a Republic.
By indicating that the 1% have no rights, you’ve indicated that you’ve lost your way.
Again you’re pulling imaginary facts from your ass again.
I never said the 1% have no voting rights!
The 1% have no more rights than anyone else, that’s my America. That’s the America I voted for, fought for and sworn to, to up hold the constitution!
LibertyLover all you do is feed off the 99% and extract the country’s wealth!
If you want the 1% to have more rights, as you advocate, you need to go back to your home in Russia!
The Pendulum
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xlZldWmmDTY
Good grief, LL is still peddling his libertarian BS? Some people never learn…
Who said anything about Libertarianism?
I simply asked a question.
You guys have no answers, so you think it’s better to bash and tear down than to build and solve.
Get your thumbs out of your mouths and do something with your lives.
you asked a question that springs from Libertarian nonsense.
Are single families the cause of wealth disparity ….. or the result of it?
people can differ but no one disagrees about the MAIN CAUSE of wealth disparity==its tax policy.
So simple, even a libertarian should be able to understand it. You know those smart libertarians: those who don’t blame the poor.
Silly Hooman.
Thank you for the worship!
I’ll say it again just for grins.
You really don’t appreciate how ineffectual that response makes you look do you.
Its funny the first 20 times. After that, its an admission that you’ve got nothing.
I think you feel that and just opt for what you think is an easy out?….. and right you are. Almost as if Pedro is writing your responses for you.
I know….. its hard to think. So much warmer to count your money and think it measures your competency.
Silly Hooman.
Loving this warm glow of sunshine.
Thank you!
Deeper and deeper.
Ha, ha.
Is your string long enough to get you back?
If I sent you a dollar bill, would you shut up?
Is everything money with you?
Ha, ha. “Its obvious.”
You can shut me up by responding intelligently to the argument presented. I don’t even have to agree with it to admire it.
Know what I mean?
I guess that was a no.
In that, case, please continue with the worship.
Well, we’ve been in business over a decade. You appear to have the answers, so what metric would you recommend I use?
Come on, noname, answer this!
You seem to think I don’t know what I’m doing, so educate me.
Wrong again LibertyLover, I don’t presume you don’t know what you think you’re doing. Judging by your rant, I am sure you think you know what you’re doing. I am just not impressed with unsolicited self-flaunting achievements! The good stuff never needs to advertise and word of mouth brings in the new business!
I am amazed how you vacillate from self-flaunting to self-victimization in the same sentence! Must be hard just to walk amongst Americans, feeling as paranoid and threatened as you do by nothing and everything. Dude, are you bipolar?
Obviously you never encountered simple truths about metrics, “You are What You Measure”!
Your only product development metric is cost, and by that measure, the developed product is “cheap” and hobbled, 1st and foremost; even-though, the customer pays allot upfront and for each subsequent needed fixes!
Sometimes you just can’t put lipstick on a hog, but; kudos LibertyLover you sure do try!
You still haven’t answered the question. You love those fallacies, don’t you?
If I can’t measure the success of my company based the demand for my product, then what should I measure it on? Tell me how I should know my company is successful?
BTW . . . you still sound jealous. You need to work better on hiding that.
Ah, you still imagine I am jealous, isn’t that cute!
Ever the neurotic self!
Dude, if you want help -w- your business, you really need to 1st read.
It’s obvious, product quality doesn’t much matter to you, as long as some sucker buys it.
Your misdirected focus and inability to work with actual data that’s real (as evidenced here) and contrary to what you want, indicates what you sell is total crap!
It is still telling how you deflect instead of answering a very simple question: “Please explain what the difference is between your “Business” and “Big Business”?”
Hey, you’re the one who has been tearing things down from the beginning. I’ve been trying to keep things on track. For instance, I’ve been trying to get you to answer this question for two days now.
But you keep taking cues out of the “Obama Handbook of Obfuscation” – when in doubt, scream and shout; when you’re caught, accuse your opponent of being bought.
But as a successful businessman, I’m good at seeing through the bullshit. I have to be; I’m responsible for over two dozen mouths (employees and their families). I take my job seriously.
If you really want to prove you aren’t just another run-of-the-mill liberal blowhard who’s jealous of anyone who has or might have more than you, then please tell me how to measure the success of my business.
Really, this is what you tell your neurotic-self “you’re the one who has been tearing things down from the beginning. I’ve been trying to keep things on track.”?
I’ve answered your question(s), but; you can’t read, you can’t do math and you can’t reason! And you still have to answer my question(s).
Your paranoia has got you ranting that I want your stuff and other things!
Yet, you wish people would take you seriously when you quote imaginary stuff to make your bogus points, like “Obama Handbook of Obfuscation”.
Obviously, LibertyLover don’t like the black man!
Again, it’s so telling how you deflect instead of answering a very simple question: “Please explain what is the difference between your “Business” and “Big Business”?” The 99% want to know!
Ah, you still imagine I am jealous, isn’t that cute!
Ever the neurotic self!
Dude, if you want help -w- your business, you really need to 1st read.
It’s obvious, product quality doesn’t much matter to you, as long as some sucker buys it.
Your misdirected focus and inability to work with actual data that’s real (as evidenced here) and contrary to what you want, indicates what you sell is total crap!
It is still telling how you deflect instead of answering a very simple question: “Please explain what the difference is between your “Business” and “Big Business”?”
My Bad – Hit the wrong Reply link:
Hey, you’re the one who has been tearing things down from the beginning. I’ve been trying to keep things on track. For instance, I’ve been trying to get you to answer this question for two days now.
But you keep taking cues out of the “Obama Handbook of Obfuscation” – when in doubt, scream and shout; when you’re caught, accuse your opponent of being bought.
But as a successful businessman, I’m good at seeing through the bullshit. I have to be; I’m responsible for over two dozen mouths (employees and their families). I take my job seriously.
If you really want to prove you aren’t just another run-of-the-mill liberal blowhard who’s jealous of anyone who has or might have more than you, then please tell me how to measure the success of my business.
Really, this is what you tell your neurotic-self “you’re the one who has been tearing things down from the beginning. I’ve been trying to keep things on track.”?
I’ve answered your question(s), but; you can’t read, you can’t do math and you can’t reason! And you still have to answer my question(s).
Your paranoia has got you ranting that I want your stuff and other things!
Yet, you wish people would take you seriously when you quote imaginary stuff to make your bogus points, like “Obama Handbook of Obfuscation”.
Obviously, LibertyLover don’t like the black man!
Again, it’s so telling how you deflect instead of answering a very simple question: “Please explain what is the difference between your “Business” and “Big Business”?” The 99% want to know!
Wow! You’re going to bring race into this? Is that the first thing you think about when you hear or see the word Obama?
They only thing left for you to do at this point is to accuse me of wanting to re-institute slavery under a Fifth Reich.
Please help a poor businessman out by telling me how to measure success.
I did, but you can’t read, reason or do math!
” poor businessman” what a hoot. There we go again, another round of your self-victimization!
I’m combining these two threads we’ve created.
There are more Rights than just voting rights. You’ve indicated that because you don’t like the fact someone has more money than you, you have the right to take it from them through mob rule. This violates the very foundation upon which this country was built.
Combine that with the fact you’ve brought race into the argument, well, there is no backpedaling from all of that, Scooter.
You’ve lost. See you in another post. Hopefully, you’ll be able to keep your emotions in check.
It’s entertaining and educational trying to have a reasoned discussion with someone delusional, paranoid and accusatory.
You’re so full of it. You can’t reason rationally, you can’t do math, you can’t read and you just make things up as you go along.
You point fingers at fictitious items you then mock and vilify to make bogus points, like “Obama Handbook of Obfuscation”!
Between your self-victimization, unsolicited self-flaunting, your self-neurotic paranoia, … , you show zero life character that matters!
You then ask me what your metrics should be to measure your success. That is all too telling! Only someone not successful asks how to measure success; that is, you must know what something is first to be able to measure it! The simple truth(s) about metrics, “You are What You Measure” shows you obviously don’t know success, and yet you still proffer vaporous emanations as boasts!
The only person you seem to have impressed was Bobbo and certainly not me!
As I indicated I advocate a progressive tax rates. Thomas Piketty’s book did a rational analysis of this country wealth, incomes and census data and he advocates an 80% tax rate on the top 1%. Thomas Piketty has a rational basis to advocate what he does. You sir have no basis except your shrills of self-victimization!
If you want to change minds, you are going to have to do better than bogus accusations of mob rule, “slavery under a Fifth Reich”, vacillations between self-flaunting to self-victimization, … and all the other rhetorical shenanigans you employ. All of which, truly successful people don’t need to employee!
At this point, you have had nothing to offer more than a bum! You’re not a Warren Buffett, so you might as well stop pretending.
Get a life and a real job then maybe you might have something meaningful and worthwhile to say!
ShutRise up, materialistic slaves! Rise up from your collective collapse and declare ,”We don’t want your damn widgets! Make the salesman take the widgets back! Bed, Bath, and Beyond will rue the day they tried to sell timmy widgets…”http://youtube.com/watch?v=g8ufRnf2Exc
a very profitable line of work and how to be successful at it
http://youtube.com/watch?v=R9n11xtjZ3Y
Isn’t lemon oil, that which can be scraped from the skin, flammable?
Polite burglars are also not far from the truth given the too common fraud of most repair people. I hate those bastards….. AND …. the fact that they wouldn’t be that hard to police/fine/jail … but its not done.
Gets into the role of big Nanny Gubment and the progressive tax rate needed to fund it/derive the benefits from it.
Yea, verily
“”too common fraud of most repair people.
Yea, I know how that works… For someone I know, a service technician came out to give the airconditioner a pre-season checkup. I heard the hammers. One week later, smoke is coming out of the AC where the bearing burnt out on the blower motor….who knew?? It was beat by a hammer. When they came to fix that ($500) then the coil lost coolant one month later… pinhole… who knew??
So, the same guy put in a brand new $7000 piece of shit that is not worth even mentioning how over that one I discovered smartgrid government spying and how
“Let’s get the septic inspected………
3 days later, the shit is flowing across the ground because the people purpousfuly backwashed into the field-lines.
fuck service ss. Universal Airsweep — We Suck.
Hey Timmy–you snuck in there. Yeah, good old ac repairs. Mine went out and reputable guy comes out and says I need a new compressoer for estimate of $800. A week later a good friend of mine who is “expert” in HVAC systems took a simple continuity meter and said all I needed was a $5 fuse. Replaced the fuse and unit was still working 5 years later when I sold the house.
FRAUD is rampant in repair services. Why EVERY county doesn’t have a sting operation for those asshats is beyond me except that it calls for a police department that cares and is not restricted by the business community members who serve on city counsels.
You are right: fuck them all. And that all is: us. Fuck me too!
Pros and cons to all we argue.
I’ve caught you in factual/logical error so often LL that you have a kneejerk response now: “Thanks for the Worship” instead of any analysis. It shows.
Here is a very specific question that should get to your failure as a libertarian: you have stated you agree a progressive tax system is ok (sic–whatever you said) but that 80% is too much. I agree. I think current State and Federal progressive tax rates at the margin are around 55%? (whoever knows, chime in?)
What do you think the maximum tax burden on the margin should be?
…………..and the follow up: given you answer, do you think that max rate should be eviscerated by special legislation giving further exceptions to those with tax accounts? ……….. IE==I do advocate a progressive tax rate with little to no social engineering/loopholes so everyone pays what the schedule says is appropriate.
Follow up questions. Its where the heart of the matter resides.
A progressive tax is not inconsistent with libertarianism. Adam Smith, what some consider the father of modern economic theory and someone quoted quite often by libertarians, is the one who first suggested that a progressive tax system is fair, just, and appropriate. It sounds to me like LL has read Smith, unlike most people who claim the title of Libertarian.
“The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.”
Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations
How that progressive tax system takes shape is not discussed in the book. I, too, believe 80% to be high. I consider 55% to be high. No society in history has survived an effective tax rate above 50% for more than a couple of generations. The American Revolution was fought over a 2% tax rate.
Apparently you don’t know your history, how America was founded:
Washington led federal and state militia to put down a popular rebellion against taxes passed by the United States Congress. 5 where killed dozens wounded with many arrested and 2 hanged afterward!
In fact The Federalists or “Washingtonians” argued for the need for a stronger central government, big government. Washington said, “Let us have a government by which our lives, liberties, and properties will be secured, or let us know the worst at once.”
The Boston Tea Party? Taxation without Representation? These are not new subjects, yes?
You are referring to things, it appears, that happened after the U.S. was founded.
Wow, you’re about the only dunce who could believe the Whiskey Rebellion, The Federalists or “Washingtonians” are not part of America’s founding era!
Mr. Noname,
I believe I said the Revolution was fought over a 2% tax rate. Was I wrong?
What happened after that may or may not be of consequence to the founding era, but has absolutely no bearing on what came before. The Whiskey Rebellion, being later in the timeline, could not have been a cause for the Revolution.
Thomas you are clueless. American history alone shows the moral and practical benefits all Americans experienced when tax rate are more progressive.
Data and American history shows America was at it’s best when taxes were higher! As Elizabeth Warren simplified Thomas Piketty: ‘Trickle Down Doesn’t Work. Never Did’!
Mr. Noname,
What does your statement have to do with the American Revolution?
And why do you think Thomas Piketty: ‘Trickle Down Doesn’t Work. Never Did’ has anything to do with the Revelation?
Wow, I still don’t see why you believe a bogus tangent like “No society in history … tax rate above 50% for more than a couple of generations.” applies to one 8 yr war.
Thomas…I agree. Problem with LL is that he slops over into calling the payment of “taxes” as a form of slavery. He only JUST said that a progressive tax rate was reasonable. He might be thinking a progressive rate from 1 to 3 %—who knows as he is practicably incapable of responding to direct questions.
I doubt you can give examples of societies that have failed under a progressive tax of 55 or an effective tax of 55 for more than a few generations. Too many variables. If you can prove me wrong… please educate me.
noname–what does the Whiskey Rebellion have to do with the point raised by Thomas?
I have indeed wondered why the American Revolution was fought. Certainly not over taxes and the Richest People leading the revolution had the most to lose. I’ve never read any text on point.
“noname–what does the Whiskey Rebellion have to do with the point raised by Thomas?”
Well Thomas would have us believe our current taxes are too high with “The American Revolution was fought over a 2% tax rate.”
Promoting a 2% tax rate is “starve the beast” politics guised as founding father patriotism. At least Thomas should know what our founding father thought about the need and necessity of taxes and centralized powerful government!
Mr. Noname,
I was not promoting a 2% tax rate. I was using that to compare against a tax rate in excess of 50%. If a war can be fought over 2%, what might happen at 50+%?
I can assure you, you are in no danger of losing your largess. History has shown that once taxes are instituted, they never go away, only shifted, except through revolution. If we have a revolution, you will have other more pressing concerns.
Thomas you are clueless. American history alone shows the moral and practical benefits all Americans experienced when tax rate are more progressive.
Data and American history shows America was at it’s best when taxes were higher! As Elizabeth Warren simplified Thomas Piketty: ‘Trickle Down Doesn’t Work. Never Did’!
Mr. Noname,
What does your statement have to do with the American Revolution?
And why do you think Thomas Piketty: ‘Trickle Down Doesn’t Work. Never Did’ has anything to do with the Revelation?
Wow, I still don’t see why you believe a bogus tangent like “No society in history … tax rate above 50% for more than a couple of generations.” applies to one 8 yr war.
I can’t remember them all off the top of my head. These two are the ones I recall. Both of these had taxation rates in excess of 50%. The first one, I actually found a link for.
The Roman Empire is a classic example of excessive taxation needed to maintain their larger than needed government.
http://tinyurl.com/mlr4enj
“Despite such efforts, land continued to be abandoned and trade, for the most part, ceased (Rostovtzeff 1926). Industry moved to the provinces, basically leaving Rome as an economic empty shell; still in receipt of taxes, grain and other goods produced in the provinces, but producing nothing itself. The mob of Rome and the palace favorites produced nothing, yet continually demanded more, leading to an intolerable tax burden on the productive classes.’”
The taxation wasn’t strictly a percentage levied on the monies of any one individual. It was also hidden by the debasing of the currency. By the time the Fall occurred, the coin of the realm contained only 5% of the silver in it then it did when the Empire was first founded. That is a 95% tax rate over the course of the Empire’s life – the Roman Government took 95% of the wealth away from its subjects. This is similar to how inflation works today (the dollar is worth 4% of what it was worth 100 years ago). The people simply stopped producing and/or operated in a black market, starving the government. Thus the Fall.
Lagash, Summeria. I only remember this one because it was the first example we studied. I remember being shocked that taxation had been around that long. I was young 🙂 An increase in taxes and extravagance of the government officials caused an uprising, a killing of a king, and the installation of another on the throne – who promptly reduced the taxes back down.
Mr. Noname,
I can certainly see Bobbo’s and Liberty’s consternation in their dealings with you. You are akin to a horribly scratched record; it jumps all over the place, never staying in the same groove for more than a few moments, denying people the simple pleasure of consistency.
Perhaps this is my reward for interjecting my opinions into Bobbo’s musings.
If you cannot force yourself to stay on topic, please refrain from attempting to engage me in conversation. I have better things to do than follow you down some rabbit hole.
TS
Oh why it that?
Thomas L Sutherland says:
4/25/2014 at 10:32 pm
History has shown that once taxes are instituted, they never go away, only shifted, except through revolution. //// Absolute statements are almost always wrong. Doesn’t history note Britain had a marginal tax rate of 95% (Thats what the Beatles protested!) and that USA under Eisenhower was near that? Both rates since declined?
Its a tendency, all part of the mix. No one example in history on all points with any other example in history.
Toynbee studied and reported on the 22 recognized civilizations that have ever existed and I think over taxation is often a part of it “but” in the main a civilization fails when it gets so accustomed to the good life that it will no longer send its young men to war to rape and pillage its neighbors. A sad brutish fact of life/real politik?
re taxation: if you have a “King” you have taxation. Do you think a king is going out to the fields to farm? … and so it goes.
I haven’t read Piketty’s book, but it sounds like its full of graphs and charts. I assume one is close to identifying what the highest marginal and effective tax rate is before it affects overall economic health? (however that may be defined). My gut hunch is that marginal rates up to 95 ((or even 100)) are ok as long as the schedule still provides incentives for the 99.99 of us?
An aside: is the silver content in a coin a good measure of a tax rate? I’d think it just become fiat currency, no different than paper the efficacy all based on faith it will be legal tender … and no better alternative available?
Tax Policy. It is infinitely complicated. Subject to study, but emotions too.
So many books to read, so little time.
Mr. Bobbo,
You ask pointed questions.
>>> Absolute statements are almost always wrong. Doesn’t history note Britain had a marginal tax rate of 95% (Thats what the Beatles protested!) and that USA under Eisenhower was near that? Both rates since declined?
My apologies. I should have been more specific with my definition of tax revenue.
Indeed the marginal tax rates went down, but the effective tax rates did not. If you do some simple searches on the internet, you’ll find tax revenue collected remained unchanged to within just a few percent of GDP verses a 50% change in marginal rate. With the closing of loopholes in the tax laws, there were fewer deductions available to the taxpayers.
>>>An aside: is the silver content in a coin a good measure of a tax rate? I’d think it just become fiat currency, no different than paper the efficacy all based on faith it will be legal tender … and no better alternative available?
One definition of “Tax” is: a compulsory contribution to state revenue, levied by the government on workers’ income and business profits or added to the cost of some goods, services, and transactions.
By debasing the currency, a government is indeed forcing a compulsory contribution to state revenue. It is also added to the cost of goods, services, and transactions because the cost, in real dollars (or other denominations) increases while, usually, salaries do not. In my opinion, I find little difference between reducing what is brought home versus what you do bring home being worth less.
I agree there is discussion that supports both viewpoints, but it is hard to argue that if the coin of the realm is decreasing in value, then salaries paid to workers should increase to compensate. If the latter fails to do so, wealth is stolen. This is the cause, in my opinion, of the ever increasing wealth gap; those at the top are more apt to benefit from such policies. Increasing the mandatory base pay for the lower class does nothing more than force the powers that be to debase the currency even further. This problem must be repaired at the source. Unfortunately, there is no single device at which we may point a finger; the system itself is the problem.
>>>My gut hunch is that marginal rates up to 95 ((or even 100)) are ok as long as the schedule still provides incentives for the 99.99 of us?
I wonder. Should 99.99% of us decide that 0.01% of us (3,200,000) should work in the cotton fields, would that be just as acceptable to you? In this regard, I must side with LL when he said that there are more Rights than just the right to vote. If one person’s rights are violated, then the system is flawed. That is my line in the sand, so to speak.
>>>So many books to read, so little time.
Indeed.
TS
I should set aside some time to brush up on my simply math skills. 32,000 would be 0.01% instead of 3,200,000.
I agree about actual revenue raised remaining fairly stable regardless of official tax rates what with loopholes and refusal to pay arising fairly fast. My memory says its around 35%? I do wonder if that “realistic effective tax rate” varies from country to country with the Nordic countries paying more and “happy” to do so because they feel they get value returned.
I prefer keeping distinguishable issue separate. Helps in the analysis. Yes, debasing currency takes from the people but taxation is distinguishable. Failure to keep things in their proper category leads to people believing in their hearts (because their brains have turned off) that any taxation at all is a form of slavery. Its bad thinking.
The wealth gap. Its caused exclusively by tax policy. Currency debasement not properly part of tax policy has a minimum effect here. When currency debasement results in inflation to basic consumer needs, yes, the poor are hurt more oidiously than the rich. I don’t think the RICH benefit more, they just aren’t hurt in the basic needs of life….. hah!==or the luxury items either. Is settling for a smaller second yacht really an injury?
Getting nearer the heart:
“Increasing the mandatory base pay for the lower class does nothing more than force the powers that be to debase the currency even further.” /// Anti Minimum wage huh? Debasing the currency is only one of a range of responses? Another as stated would be a more progresssive/responsive tax policy? I find it hard to justify a flat real wage among workers when the economic sector involved has increased production proficiency. Why shouldn’t the workers directly benefit from the increase in productivity? Contra: its a fair question whether or not there should be “starter jobs” not meant to provide a living wage. Open Question: what percentage of jobs in a society should be so?
Should 99.99% of us decide that 0.01% of us (3,200,000) should work in the cotton fields, would that be just as acceptable to you? /// I’m for maximum individual freedom. Not into forcing people to do much of anything. Encourage?==yes. In context, my example was pointing to a 100% marginal tax rate to kick in that would affect only .01% of taxpayers. Lets say that would mean an annual taxable income of 20 Million and above? I don’t know how banking 20 Million would fairly be characterized as forcing anyone into the cotton fields? You may have some dogma leaking out at the edges?
Just if you have the time/care: any thoughts about why the American Revolution was instigated and carried on by the richest people in America. Those that were getting the maximum benefit witht the most to lose all in an endeavor that any strategist would have said the USA would lose? “They fought for political freedom.” Sure. …. but it wasn’t the kind of ECONOMIC bet I would have made under the same circumstances.
Lots of books. Lots of issues.
Mr. Bobbo,
>>>I prefer keeping distinguishable issue separate. Helps in the analysis. Yes, debasing currency takes from the people but taxation is distinguishable. Failure to keep things in their proper category leads to people believing in their hearts (because their brains have turned off) that any taxation at all is a form of slavery. Its bad thinking.
In my opinion, they are one in the same. They both remove wealth. One is overt. One is covert.
>>>The wealth gap. Its caused exclusively by tax policy. Currency debasement not properly part of tax policy has a minimum effect here. When currency debasement results in inflation to basic consumer needs, yes, the poor are hurt more oidiously than the rich. I don’t think the RICH benefit more, they just aren’t hurt in the basic needs of life….. hah!==or the luxury items either. Is settling for a smaller second yacht really an injury?
Unfortunately, you are incorrect in this instance. Bonds are purchased to support the printing of the money. Who has the ability to purchase these bonds? The upper tier. They reap the benefits of the debasement before it flows into the economy. You understand wealth is stolen through debasement. You also understand tax revenue has changed little in comparison to GDP. The wealth is not destroyed, ergo it has moved somewhere. Where do you suppose the wealth is going and how does it get there?
>>>Anti Minimum wage huh?
Did I say that? I simply said it makes no difference. A simple search on the internet will show a sharp increase in the price of consumer goods within two years after every minimum wage increase. You can attribute it to “supply and demand” or “currency debasement,” but in either case spending power returns to nearly its previous level before it is raised again.
What if I told you that as a percentage, Minimum Wage has outpaced the CPI since the 50s? For instance, in 1938, MW was 1.8% the CPI. Today it is 2.8%. There was a high of 4.6% in 1968. However, the value of the dollar has dropped so much during that same time period that the additional 1% has been subsumed.
>>>Why shouldn’t the workers directly benefit from the increase in productivity?
Good question. They do, though probably not in the same fashion as you might imagine they should. Do you use a gas-powered lawn mower or a muscle-powered one?
>>> I don’t know how banking 20 Million would fairly be characterized as forcing anyone into the cotton fields?
It was meant as a comparison. Where is the line truly drawn between slavery and freedom? If the majority of the people have the power to alter a progressive tax structure that penalizes those at the top end because the ones below that feel they don’t make enough money, and those at the top end do not have the Right to redress their government, what is the next step beyond that?
If you were to do the math, you will quite, I am sure, unbelievably find that taxing those at the upper level, even at 100%, would not come close to solving the problem. It is purely a political question. It has no value to the bottom line at all.
Just out of curiosity, what is your reasoning for taxing the 0.01% at 100%?
>>>American Revolution
I am not the historian in the family, but here is a good primer. There are quite a few good answers there.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080206193544AAjQynz
My opinion is that GB got greedy as the laissez faire economy of the colonies grew to such a point where they were trying to dictate terms. King George, my guess, saw the writing on the walls, so to speak, and decided to remind the colonies who they truly were beholden to. And the colonies rebelled. The tax on tea did nothing more than prove the colonists’ points and gave them something to rally behind.
TS
Mr. Bobbo,
You make me think.
Here is an interesting scenario I have never considered. What if the minimum wage is nothing more than a device to justify inflation, the stealing of wealth through debasement?
It sounds backward, but with more cash flowing into consumers’ hands, demand goes up, thus supply goes down, thus manufacturing requires capital to produce more goods, thus they buy bonds to finance the expansion, thus the Fed prints the cash, and now the currency is that much more debased.
The end result is eventually the consumers can no longer afford the goods as their spending power has sunk back down, so manufacturing has to look for cheap labor overseas.
TS
I think you are becoming feverished. To begin with, MW does not keep up with inflation so I don’t know how it could drive it.
Sadly, most consumer goods production is overseas so your fixation on bond financing is wholly irrelevant. In a lot of those cases, they currently are, or cycle through, phases of excess capacity and the need for capital is a fantasy anyway.
You do have the consumer spending/gdp backward what with a dollar injected at the top having a near zero return (it is saved) while a dollar injected at the bottom has a 3 fold multiplier (it is spent on consumer goods and services).
You got quite a few things pretty much backward. How does that happen?
Thomas L Sutherland arguing by conflation and twist says:
4/26/2014 at 7:33 pm Mr. Bobbo,
>>>I prefer keeping distinguishable issue separate. Helps in the analysis. Yes, debasing currency takes from the people but taxation is distinguishable. Failure to keep things in their proper category leads to people believing in their hearts (because their brains have turned off) that any taxation at all is a form of slavery. Its bad thinking.
In my opinion, they are one in the same. They both remove wealth. One is overt. One is covert. /// You make my point. They both remove wealth. One is taxation policy and the other is currency debasement/inflation. Like a Venn Diagram we have 3 areas subject to discrete discussion. Thats ok, just don’t confuse 2 of the 3 for the other? (smile!)
>>>The wealth gap. Its caused exclusively by tax policy. Currency debasement not properly part of tax policy has a minimum effect here. When currency debasement results in inflation to basic consumer needs, yes, the poor are hurt more oidiously than the rich. I don’t think the RICH benefit more, they just aren’t hurt in the basic needs of life….. hah!==or the luxury items either. Is settling for a smaller second yacht really an injury?
Unfortunately, you are incorrect in this instance. Bonds are purchased to support the printing of the money. Who has the ability to purchase these bonds? The upper tier. They reap the benefits of the debasement before it flows into the economy. /// I am not a close follower of the dismal science having quickly realized I don’t understand the main theories once you are off an island that has 10 canoes and 20 coconuts…. but aren’t most bonds purchased by the too big to fail banks? These bonds returning a 2-3 % rate while the money to buy the bonds is secured by zero percent loans from the Federal Reserve. To the degree that is true, the only debasement going on is by and for the Rich. But…. have we both lost track of what the subject of this dicussion is?….Let me review above………..”How that progressive tax system takes shape is not discussed in the book. I, too, believe 80% to be high. I consider 55% to be high. No society in history has survived an effective tax rate above 50% for more than a couple of generations. The American Revolution was fought over a 2% tax rate….” //// Yes, it was about tax policy, not the transfer of wealth. We have 4 sentences there each with a separate idea. We could discuss the one idea of most interest? In the main…I suspect neither one of us have enough “facts” at hand to argue persuasively?
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
You understand wealth is stolen through debasement. /// No, thats only one of the many ways wealth is stolen, although I think you more specifically mean (or should mean) transferred? Another Venn Diagram for clarity?
You also understand tax revenue has changed little in comparison to GDP. /// No, its changed significantly. Downward trends for corp tax, downward tax revenue trend from the upper percentiles, downward from inheritance tax, and so on. Again, you are suffering, making the error, of lumping too many issues together and then cherry picking or just flat wrong on facts you want to pull from the stew.
The wealth is not destroyed, ergo it has moved somewhere. Where do you suppose the wealth is going and how does it get there? /// It clearly has been moving into the upper percentile of wealth aggregators.
>>>Anti Minimum wage huh?
Did I say that? /// No you didn’t say that. I surmised it, hence the question mark. Continuing silence doubles up on the inference.
I simply said it makes no difference. /// No, you said much the opposite that it would “debase the currency even further.” Making a fancy lie that providing a higher minimum wage would net less buying power for the base rung in society. Clever…… but dishonest….. I apologize…I don’t know if you are lying. You’ve just bought the lie in the best view of the case?
A simple search on the internet will show a sharp increase in the price of consumer goods within two years after every minimum wage increase. /// Oh my goodness. You are on a roll now. Identifying the issue of contention as the cause of something that is always multiplexed and nuanced. The two year addition is a nice come on though. Skilled you are. Post hoc ergo proctor hoc. Concomitant. Effect and not the Cause. My response if true: raise the minumum wage again then.
You can attribute it to “supply and demand” or “currency debasement,” but in either case spending power returns to nearly its previous level before it is raised again. /// Its math. Raise it again. Last raise of Fed min wage was 2009 while the cpi has gone up steadily from 2-4 % per year. Thats a steady decrease in buying power. Better to be brought up to par and fall behind than to simply constantly fall being don’t you think?
What if I told you that as a percentage, Minimum Wage has outpaced the CPI since the 50s? For instance, in 1938, MW was 1.8% the CPI. Today it is 2.8%. There was a high of 4.6% in 1968. However, the value of the dollar has dropped so much during that same time period that the additional 1% has been subsumed. //// I’d say I don’t know enough to devine your point. CPI has little to do with wealth accumulation or transfer and if your hypo is true, then the money needed to support a family has little to do with the CPI.
>>>Why shouldn’t the workers directly benefit from the increase in productivity?
Good question. They do, though probably not in the same fashion as you might imagine they should. /// You are right, whatever you are thinking, I say MW workers deserve: more.
Do you use a gas-powered lawn mower or a muscle-powered one? /// Grass??? That is so….the suburbs. ((I thought about posting I don’t use a mower to transplant my Orchids, but …. that was some time back. I do miss my greenhouse and the plants therein. ))
>>> I don’t know how banking 20 Million would fairly be characterized as forcing anyone into the cotton fields?
It was meant as a comparison. /// Exactly so. A very bad comparison.
Where is the line truly drawn between slavery and freedom? /// The distance is measured in inches while your comparison is measured in miles.
If the majority of the people have the power to alter a progressive tax structure that penalizes those at the top end because the ones below that feel they don’t make enough money, and those at the top end do not have the Right to redress their government, what is the next step beyond that? /// How many unstated assumptions have you strung together there? But I’d say the next step is either to revolt or eat shit like the poor do now? What are you thinking?
If you were to do the math, you will quite, I am sure, unbelievably find that taxing those at the upper level, even at 100%, would not come close to solving the problem. //// Again, the problem is not unidimensional and involves a response set of: all of the above. The upper tax level is as you in the best view note is symbollic except it does set the tone for a whole raft of related tax and social policies. Corporate tax, inheritance tax, offshoring of assets, stock market fast trading skimming, too big to fail–its all related as if “the RICH” being rich doens’t matter. But it does.
It is purely a political question. /// No, it has real world material consequences and I would say is as moral as it is political. Forthly: it has very pragmatic consequences to all considerations.
It has no value to the bottom line at all. /// If that were true, then the tax rate applied would be of no concern. Obviously it does to you and me both. When you are “wrong” and you talk long enough, it usually doesn’t take long to trip on your own argument.
Amusing no?
Prediction: college kiddies especially athletes are as dumb as hammers in a bag. They think unions are about not loving Mom and Dad when Unions are all about the money. Cracks me up. Just a stupid and buying the BS as you can get.
Athletes. ……… foot.
Just out of curiosity, what is your reasoning for taxing the 0.01% at 100%?
>>>American Revolution
I am not the historian in the family, but here is a good primer. There are quite a few good answers there.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080206193544AAjQynz
My opinion is that GB got greedy as the laissez faire economy of the colonies grew to such a point where they were trying to dictate terms. King George, my guess, saw the writing on the walls, so to speak, and decided to remind the colonies who they truly were beholden to. And the colonies rebelled. The tax on tea did nothing more than prove the colonists’ points and gave them something to rally behind.
TS
Sorry, proofing the draft, I see I stopped short:
Just out of curiosity, what is your reasoning for taxing the 0.01% at 100%? /// Totally arbitrary and just following up on the main question of what is the affect on society from various tax rates? Its just another way of asking/recognizing that in a society “of and by the people” is there any legitimate support for enough money being enough? I think there is for all the bases in reasoning, but that is a whole nother discussion but here is a tease: When getting operated on at 8AM in the morning, do you want your surgeon to have dreamed that night about your operation, or his stock holdings?
>>>American Revolution
I am not the historian in the family, but here is a good primer. There are quite a few good answers there. /// …I’ll just assume not my answer. As stated, I have looked for quite a while. Another teaser, I think it has to do with the very practical reason why many of our founders spoke of Liberty while holding slaves. Its related to the Minimum Wage…. but by miles.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080206193544AAjQynz
My opinion is that GB got greedy as the laissez faire economy of the colonies grew to such a point where they were trying to dictate terms. King George, my guess, saw the writing on the walls, so to speak, and decided to remind the colonies who they truly were beholden to. And the colonies rebelled. The tax on tea did nothing more than prove the colonists’ points and gave them something to rally behind. //// I agree.
TS/bobbo