I wonder how many of those in favor of doing so realize what would happen if we/Israel did? Here is an interesting rumination (from two years ago!) about the implications.
Nearly half of likely voters think the United States should be willing to use military force to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon, according to this week’s The Hill Poll. Forty-nine percent said military force should be used, while 31 percent said it should not and 20 percent were not sure.
Sixty-two percent of likely voters said they were somewhat or very concerned about Iran making a terrorist strike on the United States, while 37 percent said they were not very concerned or not at all concerned about it.
Nearly half — 49 percent — of likely voters also said they opposed cutting military spending to balance the federal budget, while 40 percent said it should be reduced.
[…]
The findings were based on a nationwide survey of 1,000 likely voters conducted Feb. 2 by Pulse Opinion Research, with a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.
As for not cutting military spending, apparently those against it are expecting another WWII-type war to break out. Or don’t want to lose their military contract money.
Loser: Really?
A link to Amazon: “Blowback, Second Edition: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire”
There is blowback no matter what you do. Its calledl: the next day.
Well, at least you “named” you dot. Now connect that dot to any rational statement?
With your limited bumper sticker mentality, I have never seen you do it. Prove me wrong: compare the likelihood of what specific blowback should the USA bomb Iran vs the USA not bombing Iran. More relevantly perhaps, the same effort of conscious thought and exposition extended to the USA not bombing Iran but providing every support to Israel. And since you have your crystal balls on display==which scenario do you see as more likely? Mix and Match?
Go!>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh, shit! I forgot to say I wasn’t talking to you.
From here on out just assume that’s the case.
You may save your insults for those who give a shit.
Ha, ha.
didn’t think so.
Its been mentioned. What would be the most likely blowback from any action taken against Iran?
I think there would be a dislocation in the oil supply and thats about it. House of Saud has already said they would make up any oil shortfall. They might, but if I were them I would gouge the world market for increased profit.
So the world might trip into a World Wide Depression. Who knows how long it would last or if revolution would not be sparked all over the world leading to nukes being set off, just because?
A very bad scenario.
Now==no intervention taken and Iran hands off a nuke to a black box covert operation and a month later a nuke goes off om Downtown Tel Aviv. Iran suspected, but there is no proof.
Think there wouldn’t be a link to the cascade of events already described?
History: just about any scenario you wish, all cross linked, lots of wild cards. We are in a game that doesn’t end well, even under the best scenarios. Turns out the best scenario is only the delay of the worst scenario.
Imagine that. ((Link: to some book.))
“Its been mentioned. What would be the most likely blowback from any action taken against Iran?”
Blowback is what happens when you overthrow a sovereigns country’s leader. We are still dealing with blowback from what we did to 1953 Iran.
“The 1953 Iranian coup d’état (known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup[3]) was the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom and the United States under the name TPAJAX Project.[4] The coup saw the transition of Mohammad-Rezā Shāh Pahlavi from a constitutional monarch to an authoritarian one who relied heavily on United States support to hold on to power until his own overthrow in February 1979.
Blowviate is what bobbo does best.
“Blowviate is what bobbo does best.”
It appears so, lately bobbo is not a practicing Buddhist. Bombing Iran will have too many repercussions to list.
Oh Shit—I hope no one confronts me because I got nuttin when it comes to defending the crap I post.
I’ll be absent an hour or so while I go google some big thick books to defend whatever anyone disagrees with. Yes, a big fat book with no hints as to how the book is relevant to any point being made. Maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Study_of_History.
A Study of History: How 22 Cultures Arose and Died: always the same. People get fat and lazy and want to vote as to whether or not they go to war. Its true McCullough. Do you think I make my shit up out of whole cloth or bumper stickers? My great, great uncle contributed to the Work. Dad had a copy of the entire work and actually read it. Its in the garage somewhere. For a year my allowance was based on my chapter book reports. I was “this close” to my own Iranian Coup attempt. Mom took the knife from my paw. Yikes! The ambiguity.
McCullough says:
2/7/2012 at 10:49 am
“Its been mentioned. What would be the most likely blowback from any action taken against Iran?”
Blowback is what happens when you overthrow a sovereigns country’s leader. We are still dealing with blowback from what we did to 1952 Iran.
Bloviate more please. //// ……and?……..
NO ONE KNOWS what any counterfactual hypothetical would result in.
Best Guesses on a very broad canvas swamped by a fevered will to nonsense is all we can legitimately hope for.
99% want the best outcome: peace and love all around. Wolves and sheep eating grass together. Cats and Dogs sharing the water bowl. History shows us this can happen.
Guy on tv, Moyers show, just said: Politics is Religion. Seems it is based on ideology, hope, and faith. and shysters????
Even if we could agree on the rank order of what we wanted: the Best for “me”, the family, city, county, state, country, hemisphere, world. or–“me”, family, tribe, religion==could we ever be “right” on the very bestest way to arrange a best result.
…..oops—it just occured to me that many may think if we just did the right thing, the smart thing, a thing informed by History, that pain and misery could be avoided?
No, my stumblebums. History is about choosing amoung terrible outcomes. Not good vs evil. ANYBODY can choose good over evil. Thats why that choice never arises.
Hoomans: avoiding reality with every choice.
Its why we have to deal with worse choices than we would have to. Absent not enough being pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theists and philosophy of History Buffs.
Who here got their allowance based on a reading, parsing, and synthesis of History?
Ha, ha. I mock myself. Dear old Paw. He called me Sue. or was it bobbo?
Counterfactual? OK.
In a world where rhinoceroses are domesticated pets, who wins the Second World War?
You know, bobbo really needs a job. He posts on damn near every topic and tries to appear to be an intellectual. He spouts his favorite saying “irrelevant” to try to bully and prove he is up to speed on every topic.
You see no one can have an opinion but him. He’s like Howard Stern, he is always the only one who could possibly be correct.
It’s an opinion ass-hat. Get over yourself. Some of us grow weary of your never ending know it all act.
C’mon man, 9 posts in this one topic? If you actually worked you would not have the time to be so prolific in this forum.
Bobbo is irrelevant. He is most likely incarcerated in a mental health facility that allows certain patients under treatment to access the internet for entertainment between therapy sessions.
A careful reading of his posts reveals this diagnosis:
Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a psychological condition marked by a prolonged disturbance of personality function, characterized by depth and variability of moods.
The disorder typically involves unusual levels of instability in mood and black-and-white thinking, or splitting. BPD often manifests itself in idealization and devaluation episodes and chaotic and unstable interpersonal relationships, self-image, identity, and behavior; as well as a disturbance in the individual’s sense of self.
In extreme cases, this disturbance in the sense of self can lead to periods of dissociation and delusions of grandeur.
It generally affects persons over the age of eighteen years, although it is also found in adolescents.
Stamper–you obviously don’t know what bloviate means.
Ha, ha.
*
jpfitz says:
2/7/2012 at 12:12 pm
“Blowviate is what bobbo does best.”
It appears so, lately bobbo is not a practicing Buddhist. Bombing Iran will have too many repercussions to list.
Reply
/////////// You know, the compliment is so ostentatious, I thought it would be impolitic to accept it directly.
Isn’t the point rather obvious that we don’t know what will happen whether we bomb Iran or don’t bomb Iran? Thats my only point. We don’t know. And even if we did know, what time frame would we use? Bomb or not bomb for one year? 10–50–100? When would we ever know, even in hindsight with foresight?
Just read some sci-fi. Time travel never goes right. And isn’t reality stranger than fiction? You think you are killing Hitler but it winds up saving Hitler?
I know that much. My deepest understandings of History only allow me to spot a few flagrant violations of logic for which a knowledge of History is not required. Eg: We shouldn’t Bomb Iran because of the Blowback such as we experienced when we deposed the monarch and installed Pahlavi. That has a seductive ring of truth because all that did happen.
but does it instruct us on whether or not we should bomb Iran?
No.
It doesn’t.
Silly rabbits: you can’t predict History except in very gross outlines not really instructive/helpful. All pronouncements become then just a form of religion: what you believe.
I remain the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist and junior Political Analyst.
Bloviating Still.
@Bloviating Still.
I didn’t say you were bloviating, just wondering what happened to the Buddhist in you? Has all the sabre rattling and talk of history riled you to believe that bombs are the answer to peace? Is Israel the only reason to adopt a warring stance, diplomacy seems to be put in the recycle bin along with your Buddhist aspirations. Peace.
“I didn’t say you were bloviating” Opps, I did quote that, no harm meant. Just surprised at your flippant discussion of dropping bombs.
I’m not sure if you’ve ever heard of Professor Bueno de Mesquita, but the CIA says Professor Bruce Bueno de Mesquita has had a 90% success rate in predicting outcomes to “events and decisions that involve negotiation or coercion, cooperation or bullying,” he says. That includes domestic politics, foreign policy, conflicts, business decisions and social interactions.”
He’s done work for the CIA, State Dept, and other U.S. government agencies by using mathematical gaming theory to get the results he does. Apparently his approach is effective because human subject matter experts lose their accuracy as more “stakeholders” get involved. The possible outcomes increase by factorials.
His predictions on Iran: http://tinyurl.com/75vbacw
Just remember… he’s still wrong 10% of the time. 🙂
Thanks for that video link. Watching it.
(Much better than reading commenters random and poorly thought out ideas on a complex subject …)
I would like to see where the graphs are now, for today, and compare them against his predictions from three years ago.
Oh, and thanks.
The state of Israel is not viable in the long-term. A voluntary diaspora is preferable to extinction.
Try telling them that. Are you removing or reducing their right to exist? Do they lack legitimacy? Is there something special re Israel that is different from every other country? Why cannot displaced Arabs be accommodated very nicely in the massive lands that surround Israel? Palestinians are victims of two ideologies at war, not a normal war were the losers move on, integrate, even rehabit their lost sovereignty.
It has nothing to do with Israel’s right to exist or it’s legitimacy, or the logic of what choices the Palestinians could make.
That Iran is aiding the Syrian regime butchery is doubtful.
There simply is no need. The regime get their arms from russia.
Probably just cultural communication.
The shutting down of 25 per cent of oil may actually not be too bad. Westerners are simply addicted to their cars and an escalation in price would force silly people into using public transport and/or silly local government officals into prividing it.
For example taking the bus in LA whilst I visited it was so enlightening. Americans have such a second class citizen attitude, its for them not us (with real jobs) who ride in cars.
I am not sure if addicted is the right word. More like modern civilization is dependent on oil. Cars and all those oil based materials and processes. Modern transportation, public or private, is fuel based. That fuel right now is oil. Unless we all ride bikes and use horses, things will be this way for a while. I sure in hell, don’t want to depend on public transportation when there is an emergency, a disaster, etc. I really would hate to call an ambulance and have them show up on bicycles.
You may ask, am I holding my comforts up against the price of war. No, it is I have no choice for something different. There are domestic powers who see oil is big money, and crazy-ass foreign powers who too see oil as big money. The problem is oil is of great value to everyone. Reducing our oil consumption is a pipe dream…until it all runs out. It is more like reducing product from those crazy bastards who have it. That is more likely with deep horizon and Shale oil operations. And especially when there is untapped oil off the coast of California, and in Alaska.
We are going to be oil dependent still for a very long time.
The problem is that the US does not consider themselves a threat to others with nuclear weapons but considers everybody else who has them a threat? Granted Iran has not demonstrated good diplomatic skills and has made some pretty violent threats against the US and its allies including Israel. I think considering their rhetoric I would have to also feel Iran could not be trusted to develop and use a nuclear bomb only as a defensive weapon. Iran is one Country you simply cannot rely on anything they say. Bombing them I think will happen. How effective it is at reducing a threat from Iran and how Iran will react is anybodies guess.
Dear Mr. Iran,
Please stop being such a Richard.
The kids in the neighborhood are planning something bad for you, but it’s not too late to defuse their growing tension.
The golden rule is all you need to help you out of these tough times. Your people know about it, since it has been with them for ages.
I’m sure you can find a copy of it on line.
Regards,
T. World
Dear World,
I will behave and follow TGR if you will stop threatening me with rocks and stop taking my lunch away.
Mr. I.
Iranians might always solve own problem and accidentally blow up self.
Then they’d probably blame the United States. And a lot of Muslims would believe it because they believe anything they are told.
Therefore the only logical conclusion to prevent USA from being falsely blamed for nuking Iran is to take preemptive action and conventionally bomb them now.
That way we could never be blamed for nuking them when we didn’t.
Thanks Guyver==you say: “I’m not sure if you’ve ever heard of Professor Bueno de Mesquita, but the CIA says Professor Bruce Bueno de Mesquita has had a 90% success rate in predicting outcomes to “events and decisions that involve negotiation or coercion, cooperation or bullying,” he says” /// I’ve read about such experts in the past, don’t remember this particular expert but the name itself may be throwing me off. All I am thinking about now is the Mesquite bushes around my house I need to clear out for a fire break as required by my Nanny State. Thats probably all I thought about the first time I read his name too: the oppression and slavery of avoiding well known and established risks like: dry oily firewood burns.
There is another game theory: put 100 monkeys in a room making random guesses regarding some external event. “Odds Are” at the end of 10 bets, there will be one monkey who has a 100% perfect track record. Phenomenal!!! Lets call him an expert and bet the house on the next random guess. You don’t need to be a player on the Price is Right to know the random guesser is still a monkey.
Amusing?
There is a specific con for this game the financial houses run. They create 100 limited partnerships and sure enough after about 10 years or so 3-4 have incredible track records: expert managers and true winners===look at the history! Proof in black and white.
I support there could be a “gifted savant” in the field of human chaos haruspication. I might take that title myself. I could be a “historian” like Gringrinch and predict that the poor people should not be given liar loans? I think I could make 10 of those in a row. How broad the advice? How specific the prediction? How badly does the CIA want an expert?
Ha, ha. Do you believe in Magic Guyver??
Hey==man is a monkey. Very uncomfortable with the ambiguity of doubt and uncertainty. Better to pick a dogma and stick with it regardless of facts. I’ve already made my wag (lower case) as to what a surgical strike against Iran would result in. I’m shaking with anticipation what Mr Mesquite has to say on the subject, unless its the cappuccino.
Stimulating in either regard? Goatse!!!!
47 Seconds into the Video and already two strikes. Should I give it three or go for the long play?
TED–always good. Thought I had watched most of them already, but missed or suppressed this one.
….something spreads ….///// I’m thinking “like a fungus” and I’m thinking all green and moldy but thats all on me and the distracted way I don’t pay attention. Lets call that a push.
…..nice play on the need to use science. Who disagrees with that?===/////except everyone?
…..we need to use science in order to make predictions so they can be reproduced……//// Oh Dear! a charlatan!!! Thats not science at all–not in the context of predicting what Iran is going to do in the future. Where is the control group? Ahhhhh===f*ck it. Well, its TED. Guyver recommended it. Lets see if by hucksterism and good guesses how far we will agree nontheless? Course, I did answer what would happen if Iran got attacked, not this more general question.
I am a reluctant sponge.
1:51==cute but the news is full of how the stock market has recovered quickly and may go up again. Manipulated by the same corporate thugacracy that got bailed out in 2008, got taxpayer paid bonuses, and who defeated re-regulation resulting in a greater concentration of wealth than ever before.
This guy is not only a fraud, he’s out of date!
only 18 minutes to go.
2 min–he doesn’t predict the lottery then claims he is into number theory? “statistically” the numbers produced are random but the numbers guessed are statistically slanted. You can indeed increase your odds playing the Lotto if you are a mathematician or know hooman nature. Up from being attacked by a shark to being hit by lightening, but again, this guy presents like a flim flam artist.
Maybe the colors on the charts will be attention grabbing?
2:30 Game theory is based on people being rationally self interested? /// People are not rational. or rationality has to be very narrowly constructed. This forum constantly posts articles about people not acting rationally. Darwin award winners. People to ignorant to be rational about anything.
Attracted to bright lights, does not mean rationally self interested.
I’m having a hard time staying with this video. Its crap. Like any other Fortune Teller, there should be a warning at the bottom: For Entertainment Purposes Only.
(Rolling Bloviating–off)
G*d Damn–its the stock market record of success long con with the authority of a computer program? Crap, crap, crap. Sorry I broke the rolling bloviateing off button but really????
11:32==My answers to his 3 questions without a computer to monitor the 3.6 million permutations:
1. Iran will get a Nuke. ((Except it does look like Israel will Bomb them==all based on they have done the same before, their very existence is based on that, they are saying they will. Hmmm. Much like this rational game theory?))
2. Ayatolla will keep Power.
3. Nejad will be tossed under the bus when useful to do so.
Bobbo,
As a general rule of thumb sure darwin award winners are not rational. But ruling a corporation or a large country, provided it is not a dictatorship, is very rational.
Iran may be a lot of things, but is not a dictatorship.
Which is also why they may actually be trustworthy with a bomb, like how China is.
At the same, after watching the video of 90% right guy his predictions were more macroscopic and generalized. If anything that video demonstrated why Iran is probably trustworthy with nukes.
Thank HM–I thought Iran was a dictatorship==or close enough. Ruled by a self perpetuating religious elite? You certainly aren’t saying there is a robust democracy under the rule of law are you?
Its too easy to be high minded when its not your ox being gored, and when you ox wasn’t stolen and roasted within your memory.
HISTORY: can go in every direction imaginable===AND WE DON’T KNOW WHY.
Like Miracles: if you can do them, then regrow a severed arm.
If you can predict the future: then become a billionaire in the stock market.
I’ll be most Fortune Tellers are shams and win more often than lose, no matter how fancy the show.
I still don’t get close up magic though. Slight of hand? Illusions? The only trick I see in this video is LYING and being very confident about it===its why they are called confidence men.
HISTORY also happens no matter what we might think. a certain few men can make history, the rest of us are carried along by it, swamped. THATs why the Ayatolla is such a threat. ONE GUY—can make history, and he can swamp the world.
Reality is a bitch. You go tell the Jews not to worry. I don’t have the balls.
Did he ever tell us “how” the predictions are made?
No. just trust the pretty colors.
14:45==wtf? How do we get from Nejad wants to build a bomb “but it goes away?” Why/how/odds?
Guyver==please tell us why you thought this sham of a goat f*ck video had any relevance to anything at all?
My god: wrap it in a computer model and make a conclusionary prediction and you are all for it. Please state why you believe this computer model based on summing up human group behavior but you don’t accept computer models worked on by 1000’s of scientists for decades regarding chemical processes?
I don’t know which is deeper: stupid, or crap.
I guess a distinction doesn’t have to be made.
Silly Hoomans. Wanna see the graph?
I’m googling game theory and probability constructs as I think my long con actually does have a specific name. First came across it in a statistics class—how to lie/misrepresent/play games with them. Ha, ha. I came across this and while often wrong, I don’t like to propagate mistakes:
http://edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker07/pinker07_index.html
I credited Niall Ferguson when it was my favorite psycholinguistics theorist Steven Pinker. My bad. Probably remembered it from the Ted Conference video too.
And yes, I shorted the actual definition used by many in game theory about man acting rationally. That concept is highly definitional. Delayed gratification, Group identity. Conformity. The prisoner’s dilemma and all that.
How do you know what you know and how do you change your mind?===can’t spend too much time finding out about your very self. Disturbing. Awe inspiring. Not enough time.
I think it’s time for an intervention.
Bob, seek help.
#
Rick says:
2/7/2012 at 7:39 pm
I think it’s time for an intervention.
Bob, seek help. /// My personna and various nom de flames is shared by three different people. Can’t you tell
*
pedro says:
2/7/2012 at 8:18 pm
Too late. Way past the intervention point. //// Pedro knowing about intervention points is expertise I would take to the Bank. Not “my” bank==one of those evil cartel banks.
Where do you bank Rick?
Reply
Will this make me #100? Woot, Woot!!
Animby mentioned a while back his phone showed the posts were all numbered and the numbers identifying the posts were purposefully being excluded from presentation.
Not that its needed, but confirming proof of this subtrefuge is provided above as I copy the reference post to begin my own: see the pound sign there? Surely even if “out of order” the numbers would aid in others rapidly finding the referenced post?
Why all the hating? C’mon girls, lets stop being so catty. Lets be substantive.
Ha, ha.
Evidently, its called “The Stock Market Scam.”
Who knew?
http://entheology.org/library/winters/QUACK.TXT
bobbo, I like the “stock market scam”, some evil asswipes out there exist only to take from the trusting. Sad condition of some bi-peds wearing suits.
pedro says:
2/7/2012 at 9:23 pm
Kool-aid is way too much sugar for you. I think you need TP for your bunghole. //// There you go again PedoBear. Twisting every subject to bungholes. I don’t touch them, and you dive right in. Could that be another conservative/liberal intellectual difference? What does your donkey say?
I have to admit I also have a number of hot buttons. People being adamant about a position where no sure position is warranted is only one of them. Kool Aid so to speak. You hit another: sugar.
Sugar is a poison. Almost any substance is a poison if taken in large amounts===and that is just what we do. Our diet is toxic. Something to get adamant over.
Ha, ha. I just made a partial list of my hot buttons. It goes on forever. I did google that other picture of the fat guy in front of his computer—but I don’t want to encourage you.
Oops.
jpfitz says:
2/8/2012 at 12:03 pm
@Bloviating Still.
I didn’t say you were bloviating, just wondering what happened to the Buddhist in you? Has all the sabre rattling and talk of history riled you to believe that bombs are the answer to peace? Is Israel the only reason to adopt a warring stance, diplomacy seems to be put in the recycle bin along with your Buddhist aspirations. Peace. /// Ever hear the Dali Lama on his country being owned and occupied by the Chinese. The Chinese killing all opposition and destroying centuries old monastaries and the like? He’s at peace with it. Claims the Chinese will one day learn their error and come around to be peace loving people.
Shows the CON in the notion that every idea/notion/action has pros and cons to it. As in so many things, and all dogmas dogmatically held, there is some good to be recognized but NO DOGMA should be fully incorporated: they are all nuts.
But I haven’t been flippant at all and I haven’t advocated any position.
Fact is, I’ve been very Buddhist on this issue: leaving the parties at issue to their own resolve and looking to my own business.
That said–my own actual position is indeed to enforce every economic weapon we can. Covert ops up the whazoo. Only as a last resort do we surgically bomb he crap out of the Nuclear infrastructure of Iran. NOT GO TO WAR.
WAR is for BRUTES and unimaginative/non pragmatic types with money to burn. That only describes the USA 75% correctly.
Yes, the Stock Market Scam is a good read. A might fine example of how knowledge is power. btw==I don’t believe the guy is an example of the SMS because it is alot easier just to manipulate what a correct prediction is. I also don’t think there is a computer anywhere running simulations on the millions of permutations either. Pure BS.
Funny so many can’t tell shit from shinola. People love shinola. Its my species too.
Good points made bobbo. Your right in your first paragraph. Misunderstood your comment.
Above you said:
“Shows the CON in the notion that every idea/notion/action has pros and cons to it. As in so many things, and all dogmas dogmatically held, there is some good to be recognized but NO DOGMA should be fully incorporated: they are all nuts.”
My understanding of “dogmas” include all philosophical bents, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnotology to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurvanism
So many dogmas used to lull folks into guilt and fear. You have to admit that not all dogmas are “nuts”, but instead maybe help humans.
OH jp==you are taking a lot of effort here. Makes me look bad, like an overposter to the likes/dislikes of other regular posters here without the spunk.
A casual read of any dogma will only give you a positive whiff of what they are all about. You’ve got to really study the dogma and get into the ritual and secret ceremonies to really get at what makes dogma bad.
Maybe you found an exception above, but I’d wager against it as long as all you do is read about it and don’t go to the midnight mass. We had a Mormon at work. One day he admitted he did in fact wear burlap underwear. “Just a respect for tradition” sort of thing. Hard to start giving respect to dogma if all you do is read about it.
Religion: the death of free men and individual conscience. “Philosophy” too–unless your goal is to be one with a rock.
bobbo,
“Philosophy” too–unless your goal is to be one with a rock.
Philosophy is my way of understanding the human condition. And what’s wrong with being one with a rock, or tree, or flower. Better than being one with an invisible being. To each his/her own.
So next post I’ll argue with you even if I agree, only so you can keep face. I don’t want to make you look bad. jk.
Well, to go with your metaphor/restraints:
You should be one with yourself.
Like any other philosophy, you can study this as well. Lots of ways to get at it. “Self Actualization” was my first formal introduction to it but my own home grown experience was to recognize how wrong other people were about most things, how they didn’t take responsibility for it/blamed others, and I thought I should not be that way.
Sometimes, being a rock sounds good.