The nerve of these greedy bastards! Just because teachers determine the quality of citizen our country has is no reason to give them things they earned! Cripes!
When students return Thursday for the first day of school across Wisconsin, many familiar faces will be gone, as teachers chose retirement over coming back in the wake of a new law that forces them to pay more for benefits while taking away most of their collective bargaining rights.
Documents obtained by The Associated Press under the state’s open records law show that about twice as many public school teachers decided to hang it up in the first half of this year as in each of the past two full years, part of a mass exit of public employees.
Their departures came before the new law took effect, changes pushed by Gov. Scott Walker and the Republican Legislature that led to weeks of protests at the Capitol.
The ensuing exodus of teachers and other state employees has led to fears that the jobs might not be filled, and that classroom leadership by veteran teachers will be lost.
I agree 100% with nonname in his last post #32.
I have worked both, in the god damn South where the Plantation mentality exists with gusto! Even here in DC, that mentality exist in the IP law business, I am through with providing superb, experienced work for pennies to the god damn rich fucktards. You want to pay me minimum wage, fine, I’ll give you minimum effort, which is all you fucking corporate and Repugs deserve!
Some of the posters here are not satisfied with reducing the teacher’s future pay and benifits,but disparage them and even want to confiscate pensions already earned. Class warfare at its best!
Chairman Mao would be so proud of them.
#37, Cap’nKangaroo said,
“Some of the posters here are not satisfied with reducing the teacher’s future pay and benifits,but disparage them and even want to confiscate pensions already earned. Class warfare at its best!”
Class warfare against the teachers sounds fair enough. The unions are long time Democratic Party backers, and the Dems have used class warfare as a constant rallying cry since they merged with the Populist Party back in the early 20th century (or was the late 19th century?). What’s good for the Goose…
Based on what I’ve seen, read, and heard over the decades, in CA, the teachers’ unions are NOT about educating in the slightest. They’re not really even about the teachers, per se. They’re about protecting and expanding teacher union power, and thus any benefits to the teachers teachers are a side effect of that drive.
If I had a penny for every time I heard the teachers’ unions hold the kids hostage in ads and interviews (“Increase our funding beyond the current 55% of the entire state budget – which by Constitutional Amendment can NEVER be reduced – or we’ll turn your kids into drooling morons!”), I could fatally bury every last teacher in CA in pennies all at the same time.
I would like to see a Constitutional Amendment stating that it is criminally and civilly legal to kill anybody who says “It’s for the Children” when not speaking about their own kids and their own personal resources.
# 38 Drive By Poster
“I could fatally bury every last teacher in CA in pennies all at the same time.”
“I would like to see a Constitutional Amendment stating that it is criminally and civilly legal to kill anybody”
Those steroids getting you stirred up again “Drive By”?
I can see how you are putting your higher education, paid for from your well spent pennies, to work!
You are an example to us all!
Nice. The US is going to do to the teaching what they did to manufacturing. At least you’re sticking to what you know best.
#39, noname
Nope, no steroids.
I’ve simply gotten TIRED of seeing the teachers and school unions metaphorically grabbing a child, hostage taker style, pointing a metaphorical gun at the kids’ heads, and essentially say (no matter how they phrase it) “Give us the pay/benefits or the Kid gets it!”. One time, they came pretty close to literally saying that.
I have seen that “negotiation” tactic by the CA state teachers unions *every single time* there’s even a trivial dispute between the teachers and a government for my entire life.
Likewise, “It’s for the children” is the Dem’s very most favorite phrase in the whole effing world to justify whatever it is they want to do that particular second in time. Imagine a cute, photogenic child strapped to the front of a large battering ram, and then use it relentlessly to breach the gates of increased public funding and expanded political power. That’s what “The Children” are for to the Democratic Party.
Tsk. Such hate.
– – – – –
# 1 Faxon:
“Gee. I guess they can easily afford to retire. Now, why do you suppose that is true?”
I suppose it’s because they’re highly educated professionals with decades of experience. Or are you saying that a person with a graduate degree and decades of experience should be paid the same as the day-laborer hanging out on the corner next to the home improvement store?
Reminds me of the old Russian saying:
“My neighbor has a cow. I don’t.”
“I hope his cow dies.”
I think they found replacements:
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/education/local_schools/article_8b266c2a-d438-11e0-be67-001cc4c002e0.html
# 41 Drive By Poster said,
“Imagine a cute, photogenic child strapped to the front of a large battering ram, and then use it relentlessly to breach the gates of increased public funding and expanded political power. That’s what “The Children” are for to the Democratic Party.”
It’s funny, I think your last sentence really states your obvious front concern; your a republican, who hates democrats and the children be damned (no child left behind).
The problem is that teachers are underpaid. The free market works both ways. If teachers made $120k per year, then we could attract the best and the brightest and make them compete for the jobs. Instead of the standard Republican model where we cut wages and benefits, attract the bottom of the barrel then complain that they aren’t worth the money.
# 45 Yeller said,
“The problem is that teachers are underpaid. The free market works both ways. If teachers made $120k per year”
Bull shit!
I have yet to see a reliable study that shows this. There is none.
Teachers already get paid well enough. If they want to get paid more, then maybe they should be required to get a doctorate in the field they are teaching (not some bull shit masters in education diploma).
American colleges/university don’t require masters in education, because they are bull shit degrees. University’s instead require demonstrated and published expertize in the field they will be teaching and researching in.
Teaching currently get paid more then associate professors (Ph.D credentialed, published and respected in their field of expertize and research).
In no way do “teachers” deserve 120k/yr regardless of their experience.
Property taxes are already expensive and teachers and schools are more concerned about teaching anything but the basics (reading/writing/math/science/music).
Requiring the teachers to get doctorates for more pay will just make them BITTER.
My high school had a psychology teacher with a doctorate – she was f–king bitter about having to teach kids rather than raking in the dough that psychologists are supposed to get from a private practice.
She definitely took her bitterness out on her students in various ways that impacted the grade you got (and she insisted on being addressed as “Doctor”). Fortunately, we only had to endure her for half a semester. The other half was spent in Driver’s Ed.
# 47 Drive By Poster
You are saying the smarter the teacher is the more bitter they will be, Has it’s been your experience a dumb teacher will be so grateful and happy they would make a better teacher?
That seems like a great school you went too. You’ve differently a very learned person.
#48 noname,
Congratulations! You’ve just conflated (or confused) intelligence with a university degree!
All a degree means is that a person has been trained a certain amount in a narrow field of human knowledge/endeavor. The higher the degree, the more specific and limited the field of study.
For the “soft” sciences, usually the main prerequisite for getting a doctorate is the simple devotion of time, effort, and tuition money to get to that point. It’s only the “hard” sciences where actual aptitude for the field matters in getting a Phd because you can’t easily bull sh-t your way through the process.
# 49 Drive By Poster
And your point is:
“soft” sciences doctorate is really a degree in B.S. and therefore best not to have one
“hard” sciences doctorate does show actual aptitude due to the lack of B.S.
Since schools can best prepare American citizenry without the B.S. it’s best they stick to the “hard” sciences, where of course they employee teachers with aptitude, i.e, they have a doctorate in the “hard” sciences they are teaching.
That seems to sum up your point, of which I would agree.
It’s best to stick with the hard sciences in primary education. Reading/Writing/Math/Science(Biology,Physics,Chemistry,Geology,Electronics,Mechanics).
We can quibble about how soft a science history and sociology are, but they are also useful to teach.
And to point about money; primary school teachers shouldn’t be paid more then “higher” education professors.
If primary school teachers feel like they are taking on a bigger role then just teacher; then maybe they shouldn’t be.
It’s about time people who have kids, invest in them with time and caring. If not, don’t expect the taxpayers to pick the slack.
The state should unquestionably bill these uncommitted parents for any additional services their kids need to meet high standards of graduation.
Standards tend to flow downhill. Hold the teachers accountable as well as the teachers hold the students accountable, as well as the state hold the parents accountable. The voting public then should hold the State accountable!
Wishful thinking, I know. This is how the system is supposed to work, except it’s broke. It broke when kids stopped being supported and disciplined at home (both parents working to keep up the Jones or trying self actualize themselves in their career ambition and have kids too).
Teachers too have became overwhelmed and complacent by unruly, disinterested students.
#46 noname said,
“I have yet to see a reliable study that shows this. There is none.”
No reliable study that says that increasing pay will attract better and more qualified applicants? I think that’s one of the foundations of capitalism.
“Standards tend to flow downhill. Hold the teachers accountable as well as the teachers hold the students accountable, as well as the state hold the parents accountable. The voting public then should hold the State accountable!”
I agree 100%! We need more accountably and better metrics for student achievement. However, we have to realize that decrease in pension benefits or increase in standards shrinks the number of people who are willing to or able to be teachers. To counteract this we will have to offer more compensation.
# 51 Yeller said,
To counteract this we will have to offer more compensation.
Bull …. Teacher already make enough.
We tried that and it doesn’t work. Increasing teachers pay hasn’t increase the quality of education.
Across the nation, public school districts spent an average of $8,701 per student on elementary and secondary education in the 2005 fiscal year, up by 5 percent from $8,287 the previous year.
Attention instead should be given to the “world’s best schools,” in Finland. It’s not just spending that matters.
States that pay teachers more do not get better eduction!
NY ranked 28th in math and 21st in reading the same year, according to the National Assessment of Educational Progress; even though it ranked #1 in spending for 2005. By contrast, South Dakota ranked 39th in spending and 3rd in both reading and math. So some temperance might be in order for those advocating higher spending (teacher salaries).
Here is a quick correlation of spending vs. reading and math score rankings.
Spending Math Ranking Reading Ranking
New York 14,119 28 21*
New Jersey 13,800 10* 7*
District of Columbia 12,979 51 51
Vermont 11,835 3* 12*
Connecticut 11,572 19* 26*
Massachusetts 11,267 1 1*
Delaware 10,910 19* 7*
Alaska 10,830 29* 34
Pennsylvania 10,552 19* 17*
Rhode Island 10,371 38* 32*
Wyoming 10,255 16* 5*
Maine 10,106 19* 5*
Maryland 9,815 31* 35*
Wisconsin 9,744 7* 17*
New Hampshire 9,448 7* 7*
Michigan 9,329 33 28*
Ohio 9,260 15 14*
West Virginia 9,005 44* 39*
Hawaii 8,997 47 50
Illinois 8,944 31* 21*
Virginia 8,891 10* 14*
Indiana 8,798 16* 28*
Minnesota 8,662 2 7*
Nebraska 8,282 10* 7*
North Dakota 8,159 3* 1*
Oregon 8,115 16* 26*
California 8,067 44* 48*
Montana 8,058 6 3*
Georgia 8,028 38* 39*
Iowa 7,972 10* 12*
Colorado 7,730 19* 21*
Missouri 7,717 34 19*
Kansas 7,706 10* 14*
Louisiana 7,605 46 44
New Mexico 7,580 48 47
Washington 7,560 7* 21*
South Carolina 7,555 19* 39*
Arkansas 7,504 38* 35*
Texas 7,267 19* 35*
Florida 7,207 35* 42
South Dakota 7,197 3* 3*
North Carolina 7,159 16* 35*
Kentucky 7,118 35* 21*
Alabama 7,066 49* 45*
Tennessee 6,729 41* 32*
Nevada 6,722 43 45*
Oklahoma 6,613 41* 31
Mississippi 6,575 49* 48*
Idaho 6,283 19* 19*
Arizona 6,261 35* 43
Utah 5,257 29* 28*
Using NY as an example, NY should instead give a voucher worth $14,000 per student, then the parents could use it at any school of their choosing!
This will bring competition into the system and the money would go a lot further. And if a student drops out…. to bad, they lose the voucher and the rest would get more.
Basically the data shows that by paying $177 more per student a year, a state has a 5% chance of improving their math ranking by 1% and 8% chance of improving their reading ranking by 1%.
Taking the country as a whole, money appears to be at most 10% of the problem in improving the education of our students.
Throwing money at improving the education of our students has yet to demonstrate improved education! Just look at how well both North and South Dakota are doing. South Dakota is ranked 3rd in reading and math yet they spend 19% less then NY (how’s that for a union budget cut).
Sorry, but school has the primary purpose to educate our students. School purpose is not give our teachers a 6 or 8 weeks of paid leave each year!
Teacher unions keep saying we need more money and we will do better at teaching. We have tried and tried and tried and tried that. It doesn’t work.
The best way for a state to improve its educational status is to move north to the border with Canada. Pat Moynihan
This shows up frequently when they like to say Texas schools are bad, say compared to Wisconsin.
The reason is that Texas has more blacks and Hispanics. White students in Texas do better than white students in Wisconsin, Hispanics students in Texas do better than Hispanic students in Wisconsin, and black students in Texas do much better than black students in Wisconsin. Yet the overall average shows Wisconsin ahead.
Noname #53 et al: Could you source your spending/math ranking/reading ranking table? I’d like to know what the money bought specifically. I’m assuming that it isn’t limited to teacher salaries. I would also like to know whether the money number is raw or normalized and could determine that if I could read the source directly.
As for whether teachers are being paid enough, I doubt it in many cases. Where I am right now, the school system gets a larger portion of the city budget than many other school systems in the state. The teachers are paid better, and the supplies are better (e.g. books, lab equipment, etc.) Simply throwing money at education doesn’t work, it has to be spent intelligently. However, if you pay teachers poorly you shouldn’t be surprised when you attract poor teachers. Also, I’d be willing to bet that it costs a lot less to live in North and South Dakota than in NY State, so the lower teacher salaries in the Dakotas are higher compared to living expenses and so the teachers there are paid better than the raw numbers might suggest. This isn’t really as simple as it might seem.
It’s a compilation of several sources,
one of the source was Foundation for Education Reform & Accountability
the Nordic or Scandinavia model that combines the economic efficiency of the Anglo-Saxon social model with the welfare state benefits of the continental European ones is indeed getting allot of praise for their successes.
Looking at the Gross National Income, it is a far better way to measure a countries actual wealth such as GNP/cap. If measured in GNI/cap then both Norway, Denmark and Sweden is ranked in the top ten again. Many Republicans like the Ireland capitalist model, that is ranked down on a 15-20 place.
So yes # 59 Yeller, the Nordics do have something to teach us. Is America (republicans and tea party partakers) willing to listen and learn from their success?
The only thing charter schools teach kids is the wonders of taco bell, the benefits of pepsi, and the yummy goodness of doritos.
Yay captialism! Make our children consumers!
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