I have a friend who spent years with horrible throat pain and difficulty swallowing. She needed an operation but, with no insurance and no money, she couldn’t get help. She tried going to a hospital emergency room, but was told she wasn’t sick enough. She actually, seriously thought about committing a crime to get help, but didn’t because of her daughter. Finally, she was able to negotiate the morass of Medicare, etc and get fixed up with an expensive, multi-hour operation. The doctor told her if she had been able to get it treated early, it could have been handled in an office visit.
#64, Why are you willing to let a bunch of kids burn to death to save your wife?
Answer my question first and I’ll answer yours.
#67–LL==back to your favorite if only hypothetical. Where did you post the entire question?
Without more details, in general, kids are replaceable whereas wifey is not. Wives would probably save the kiddies, but we men have fewer choices.
Is quantity/numbers of lives the only or most relevant concern? Who actually thinks that?
#64 Mr Fusion
Yes, they thought teabagger was pretty clever till they found out what it meant. Now its the lefts fault somehow.
#70,
HAR !!!
And to think Santorum is running again.
#65, LL,
The government rations food for those who cannot to feed themselves.
You don’t understand the definition of the word “ration”. The food stamp program grew out of agriculture support. Today, it is a form of assistance. A food pantry “rations” its food; food stamps don’t.
Regardless, your comment in #62 was shown to be the straw argument it is. You forget the response that “let them eat cake” summarized the attitude of the the French court and uber wealthy. Damn, they lost their attitude along with their heads.
As I said earlier, you don’t realize what you wrote.
I guess it all boils down to this. What percentage of GDP should our government spend on assistance? Also, do you think assistance should be indefinite? Lastly, do you believe in equality?
The guy wasn’t a mooch. He just needed medical care and he didn’t have a job any more. Could happen to anyone. At that point you take the best option going which can be getting arrested.
Muting him was not nice.
#73–Derek==Let’s parse:
I guess it all boils down to this. What percentage of GDP should our government spend on assistance? /// As much as is required==ie, less than we are spending now with its attendant waste, fraud,and abuse.
Also, do you think assistance should be indefinite? /// It should last as long as the need exists.
Lastly, do you believe in equality? /// Definitely. Its the standard by which we know all things are not equal.
For confused foreigners, in America the words “health” and “care” when combined together do not mean, “health care”.
Just another example of why the US heath care system is so screwed up on so many levels.
False economy is a phrase that isn’t used as much as it was in the late 1800s. It is an action which saves money at the beginning but which, over a longer period of time, results in more money being wasted than being saved.
Citizens without insurance is false economy and is one reason citizens in the US pay double for their health care, in comparison to all other developed countries – countries who all have figured this out.
#69, And with the rising cost of medical treatments “too poor” includes more and more of us all the time.
Then fix THAT. Don’t pretend that making it available to everybody is going to solve the problem. It’s going to make it worse.
#72, A food pantry “rations” its food; food stamps don’t.
You mean somebody on food stamps can request all they want? Wow, I didn’t know that!
My sister was on food stamps for a bit. Don’t lecture me it not being rationed.
As I said earlier, you don’t realize what you wrote.
I know exactly what I wrote. Comparing a system that taxed everybody into the poor house (so they couldn’t afford food) is not what the problem is today. But that is where it is headed.
Note, I still haven’t heard how we are going to PAY for all of this.
#80–LL==my, my, nothing but Dogma. Let’s parse:
#69, And with the rising cost of medical treatments “too poor” includes more and more of us all the time.
Then fix THAT. /// Ummm what is “THAT”? In context it would be that more and more people are becoming too poor to afford health care/insurance. One way to fix THAT is to provide universal coverage thereby lowering the actual COST of heath care and the system overhead of providing it. Leaving the cost structure in place allowing its double digit inflation/skimming to continue and MYSTICALLY raising everyone’s income to cover that cost cannot be achieved except thru the application of unthinking DOGMA.
Don’t pretend that making it available to everybody is going to solve the problem. It’s going to make it worse. /// But all evidence and logic shows just the opposite. How is universal health care provided in all the other developed countries at half the cost if it can’t be done? DOGMA turning observable facts into impossibilities? Ha, ha.
#72, A food pantry “rations” its food; food stamps don’t.
You mean somebody on food stamps can request all they want? /// No–food stamps give you a set amount. That is certainly rationing but it is done by the stamp issuing organization, not by the distributing organization==not that it makes much difference but its always good to keep brown crap separated from the yellow crap.
Comparing a system that taxed everybody into the poor house (so they couldn’t afford food) is not what the problem is today. But that is where it is headed. //// With the lowest tax structure in 60 years, how is that the case?
///////////////////
Is your guide Reality or Dogma?
Note, I still haven’t heard how we are going to PAY for all of this.
We have decided as a society that there are somethings that are so important or expensive that the community shares responsibility for it.
Education: Uneducated people cause problems for society through crime, low productivity, and poor workforce competitiveness.
Fire is a threat to everyone’s property, not just those who dont pay for the fire service.
Police help safeguard a lawful society, not just guardians for the property of the wealthy.
Roads help connect us all, individual and commercial enterprise.
We no longer live in a world where every man having a musket is an adequate military.
Healthcare should be on this list as well. Its no less important.
Not doing anything on the above list may “save money” but not doing them has costs and penalties as well. The community bears those costs even in a “every man for himself” system.
Correcting my own post at #82, I didn’t see the last sentence which is confusing.
LL asks the question: Note, I still haven’t heard how we are going to PAY for all of this. /// And as Reality would have it–again all we have to do is look at our friends in Europe and elsewhere who have benefited from universal healthcare for decades now. Everyone gets covered, life is more secure/better/less worries, business compete on the world market without the burden of health care coverage, and its all done at half the cost in the USA.
Why would anyone except a few vested interests who are skimming their “profits” out of this system object?
Liberty Lover: you prefer a system that charges you $100 and has your neighbor uncovered to the point that some are choosing to get arrested to get health care coverage. Why do YOU object to paying $50 for the same coverage you have today AND your neighbor also gets the same coverage you have AND your bank is not getting robbed, AND your prisons are not charging you for prisoner care. The only loser here (sic!) is Big Pharam/Ins Co/For Profit Healthcare who is not getting their $100 for taking advantage of your poor neighbor.
Why do you refuse a rational system just because your DOGMA is not satisfied?
Reality vs DOGMA.
Easy to see.
#83 agreed. In addition, the costs of doing nothing are already astronomical and rising.
The little told story is that NOT having basic healthcare for society costs dearly – it’s just buried in some other accounting the sheeple are not seeing.
Take the cost above.
+ costs taxpayers 1,000 times what it should
+ cost for police response
+ judicial system is involved
+ incarceration
+ he is no longer contributing to the tax base
+ he will invite other to do the same
This idea that government programs run at a lower overhead. They have a larger base on which to operate, lowering their overhead costs through scale. Also, we constantly hear about tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars in ‘waste fraud and abuse’ that will be used as savings. Well, any move to reduce that fraud increases the overhead, twice because you have increased your expenses and you have reduced your outlays. This is why insurance company overhead is so high. If they sent out 10 billion dollars in extra payments and fired their auditors their overhead would drop too.
Lyin Mike–how do the European’s provide Universal Health Care at half the cost?
WASTE = EVERYTHING the for profits do. No need to spend $xx Million on “We are here for You!” advertising campaign when everyone is covered.
You see that expense is WASTE!!!!! 100% Waste.
Deal with REALITY Mike, not your DOGMA.
#81, Are you suggesting some sort of price fixing scheme or regulation then? Do tell, new ideas are appreciated as opposed to “just let poor people die” doom and gloom.
Not at all. How about an economy strong enough that it doesn’t “need” intervention? That would be a good start. I have absolutely no faith in the federal government to administer such a program. They can’t get medicare right and the result is doctor after doctor dropping out of the program. How do you envision making doctors accept the program without raising the cost of all medical care?
Eventually, you either going to have to put a gun to a doctor’s head to make him perform the surgery or hire a bunch of unqualified doctors to treat those on the program. Take your pick.
I guarandamn-tee you if you start cutting into the doctor’s salary they will either take up golf for a living or move to a country where they can charge what they think they are worth.
But even those costs can be handled better spread among the pool.
Ah, now we get down the meat of your argument. Wealth redistribution. Sorry, hasn’t worked anywhere its been tried for any reasonable amount of time.
#83, Education: Uneducated people cause problems for society through crime, low productivity, and poor workforce competitiveness.
I agree. But a central bureaucracy is not the answer.
Re: Fire, police, roads, etc.
Those are local functions. Let’s stay on track here. We’re talking about a monolithic federal program that is doomed to fail.
Ha, ha. I crack myself up. Still able to be rattled, to lose my repose, when I see libertarian nonsense pumped out at high speed.
Mocking reality in favor of dogma:
1. “How about an economy strong enough that it doesn’t “need” intervention.” /// Bwahahahahah! Like when has THAT ever existed except as a wet dream in a cartoon magazine?
2. “They can’t get medicare right and the result is doctor after doctor dropping out of the program.” /// Doctor income doubled and tripled immediately after MediCare was passed. Seems 50% of charges provided greater income than accepting chickens and potatoes as payment.
3. “I guarandamn-tee you if you start cutting into the doctor’s salary they will either take up golf for a living or move to a country where they can charge what they think they are worth.” /// Name one place. Just one.
4. “Wealth redistribution. Sorry, hasn’t worked anywhere its been tried for any reasonable amount of time.” /// The greatest wealth transfer ever seen is taking place right now in the USA—from the bottom 99% to the top 1%. Come the revolution–its not even good for the rich.
5. “Those are local functions.” /// So, if I move from local to local, I get a fresh start each time? “What a Country!”
Totally divorced from reality. Yet it lives!!!
http://tinyurl.com/d5yzqe
Consider that the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission reported in 2008 that 28% of Medicare beneficiaries looking for a primary care physician had trouble finding one, up from 24% the year before. The reasons are clear: A 2008 survey by the Texas Medical Association, for example, found that only 38% of primary-care doctors in Texas took new Medicare patients. The statistics are similar in New York state, where I practice medicine.
http://tinyurl.com/2vlkocu
And there are literally hundreds more stories like these.
Eventually, people are going to have to realize that healthcare is not something that grows on trees. It is performed by human beings with minds of their own who want to get paid for their knowledge.
If you want to get mad at someone because there are so many people without access to it, ask yourself “why” they don’t have access.
Perhaps that needs to be the subject of discussion instead. Let’s look at the cause and fix it instead of putting a band-aid over an abscess.
#88 LL
“Ah, now we get down the meat of your argument. Wealth redistribution.”
No, its called recognizing that living in a community/society means cooperating. Helping individuals sometimes benefits the whole group.
“Just let poor people die” is not a solution.
A system that makes hard working people choose between their lives and financial solvency is not a solution.
A system that enriches people by denying treatment to patients is not a solution.
#91, Helping individuals sometimes benefits the whole group.
I couldn’t agree more.
But you aren’t helping anyone with a system such as this.
And forcing someone to help someone else by forcing them to give up their time/money/whatever is not the answer. That only breeds resentment. It is human nature. You can’t wave a wand and make it magically happen.
Until people learn that, this problem will never be solved.
#90 There has been a freeze on Medicare payment amounts since 2009. Even simple inflation would necessitate some increase.
It would be nice if we could stop underfunding programs to pay for tax breaks, and then declaring the problem unsolvable.
You never explained why every corporation doesn’t move to Montenegro. Maybe you can explain why there are still Canadian, British, French, German, Swiss, and Australian doctors.
#93, Oh, I don’t know. Maybe because they don’t have to defend themselves?
It’s easy to point to Europe and say they are a success (though, today that is debatable) when they don’t spend 30% of their budgets on wars.
http://tinyurl.com/6yppchb
#93, You never explained why every corporation doesn’t move to Montenegro
Why go there when you can go to Switzerland?
http://tinyurl.com/45yggsr
Breaking News: the arrested guy in the Header had free health care available to him within 5 miles of the Bank he robbed.
I would “love” to see a full hour in depth coverage of who can get what kind of care how easily in this area. I “know” that health care in jails is not the best in the land. I also know that Hospitals/Clinics “love” to tout that they give free care while doing everything they can to avoid it in real practice. After all–the “law” requires free care be given but there is more need than the system to afford===the story has to break down somewhere.
For what its worth: ((but just why would an “investors” website be reporting this?))
http://investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/576074/201106211840/A-Phony-Tale-Of-Woe.htm
#95
You tried that straw man the other day too. Those are EU HQs. McDonald’s has not fled Illinois for Switzerland to avoid US taxes. Drs in countries with universal healthcare have not all left because they don’t get paid enough.
#94 Maybe we shouldn’t do that then.
>Deal with REALITY Mike, not your DOGMA.
It’s you who are engaging in that. How often do people have to hear about Medicare fraud, and that eliminating this will produce savings to pay for universal health care or paying down the deficit? The reason for the lower overhead is because they do not spend lots of money going after fraud, and the revenue collection is done for them by every business in America and the IRS. Reduce the fraud, and the overhead goes up.