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#66 Hmeyers
You essentially just argued against representational government as a whole. I suppose we should referendum everything?
Also explain how the dangerous nature of Police and Firefighting exempts them from the arguments you are making against public employee unions?
1. Do they have dangerous jobs? Yes.
2. Are those jobs important? Yes.
3. Should they be able to bargain for their work conditions and compensation? Absolutely.
1 has no bearing on 3, nor does it have any bearing on the “rightness” of public employee unions.
We can argue whether its wrong or right, but its going to be wrong or right fairly, and for everyone affected.
#68: You mean Walker isn’t corrupt because he accepted campaign donations?
Hypocrite.
#66 technically they are all tax payers.
#70 Its only freedom when your guy does it. Gotcha.
@tcc3
“1 has no bearing on 3, nor does it have any bearing on the “rightness” of public employee unions.
We can argue whether its wrong or right, but its going to be wrong or right fairly, and for everyone affected.”
Eh? Coal miners should be in a union — they have unusual needs and circumstances. Should government accountants be in a union? Fuck no.
You might not agree with me, but I don’t need you to agree with me. My opinion isn’t gonna change.
What a typical response: “Fuck you, I’m right. Debate is irrelevant, resistance is futile.”
Putting your fingers in your ears and humming is also how 5 year olds “win” debates.
Well, think what you like, but here’s what the pros say:
“We’ve sought significant modifications in bargaining laws, but we’ve never sought to eliminate collective bargaining rights,” says Miles Turner, executive director of the Wisconsin Association of School District Administrators.
In fact, the association, which represents almost all of the state’s 424 school districts, doesn’t want to do away with collective bargaining.
Turner says doing so “would create a very problematic work environment because right now we have an established system, and everyone knows how the system works. There’s a comfort with everyone having a seat at the table. If you take that away, it leads to an uncertain work environment that could lead to strikes.”
http://thedailypage.com/isthmus/article.php?article=32430
This tcc3 is a riot to read. I’m a professional Firefighter/Paramedic for a city in Texas, a Right-To-Work state. We don’t have collective bargaining and I’m thankful. I don’t think police or fire should have collective bargaining any more than any other public sector employee. There is a very important factor that the public employee unions conveniently overlook because they are not interested in union members, the unions addict the union members to the idea that they ‘protect’ their jobs when what ACTUALLY protects the jobs of public sector employees is the investment the public entity has made in that employee. Hiring, training, and getting a new employee up to speed is much more expensive than keeping an existing employee fairly compensated. The VAST majority of public employees are NOT members of unions because they have a CHOICE and they CHOOSE NOT to be a member of a strongarm organization that drives wedges between the employees and the government entities for whom they work. To the extent this article is accurate, the Koch brothers gave a VERY expensive gift to the people of Wisconsin that may well be spit upon, despised, maligned, and misrepresented and may never be given its due by the taxpayers of that state. It is a gift that will allow this nonsense of public union thuggery to go the way as the American public realizes that we as public servants are genuinely blessed to have our careers and that there ARE some benefits that we enjoy that are NOT fiscally sustainable. Allowing public employees to hold taxpayers hostage doesn’t change the laws of economics. If you don’t like the benefits of the job you have, go find one better. If you don’t believe you can find one better, you might want to start counting your blessings for the position you have. I know I do.
Jack nice statement, complete and utter bullshit, but nice.
#76 – At least you agree that all public employees should be treated with equal consideration. Collective bargaining is either a right they all should have or none, not a political plum to be given to groups that endorsed your candidacy.
Beats the hell out of the “argument” above that justifies the unfair treatment with…because, its just that…cause you can’t make me change my mind that’s why!
I’m glad things are working out for you in Texas.
#9, while that may be true the poll shows people are not in favor of removing collective bargaining, those same people don’t fully understand what the implications are to that. For example if collective bargaining is so great why is it not an issue for federal employee unions? Not a single federal union has collective bargaining. Yes, there should be a better message on what it really means, but your poll is yet another example of the “public” participating in a poll of which they have no understanding of what is at stake. Most of my family from Wisconsin is in favor of the legislation. They find the unions are being babies about this whole thing. Public sector people should be paid LESS than private sector people since they get all the nice incentives like reduced healthcare costs, virtually guaranteed jobs and completely guaranteed pensions. Most of my family would be tickled to pay what they do for the benefits. In the end as has been pointed out these people’s “bosses” are the people of the state. As a boss would you take very kindly to your employees making more than you and having better benefits?
#79 “…Public sector people should be paid LESS than private sector…”
You teabaggers are quite the piece of work.
#80
Yeah, minimum wage! For every job! =)
#81: Oh I forgot, minimum wage is a commie plot too.
>Collective bargaining is either a right they all should have or none, not a political plum to be given to groups that endorsed your candidacy.
Probably, but in reality that’s what’s happening. Walker didn’t want the police going on strike. Plus there is a bigger problem with the teachers unions, who are not covered by the budget cuts. Because of collective bargaining, the teachers unions are able to force school districts to use the health insurance carriers owned by the unions. The school districts could in theory save money by switching health insurance coverage, but the union leaders don’t want to lose that perk.
We’ve already sen how the unions have an influence in Wisconsin. When news of the bill broke, the unions had the Democrats skip town, and they arranged for new contracts to be signed. Public schools signed a contract even before Walker took office. One union called an emergency meeting Friday night 3 days after Walker introduced the budget to sign a new contract.
Democrats tried to do things through a lame duck session, pulling one of their guys out of jail to get the votes, but somehow failed at that. Perhaps it was because of the nefarious Koch Brothers.
#80 For the record, I’m not a “teabagger”, but I stand by my comment. The reason someone works in the public sector vs the private is for the benefits and security. While that’s all fine and dandy, don’t then expect to be paid as much or more than the private sector. There was and should continue to be a disincentive for people to work in the public sector. Part of the problem these days is the public sector is becoming too large. In MN for example, the government is the largest employer in the state. This feeds a vicious cycle. In the real world people can’t demand that their boss to pay them more like the unions do. There are certainly jobs that are only going to be done by the public sector, but the benefits given to public employees is far far better than the private sector. And that’s the trade off.
So we should place the burden of shrinking the public sector on the workers by punishing them with substandard pay and benefits? Its their fault for being public employees after all? The vilification of hardworking people is astounding.
There may be a conversation to be had about the size and role of government. That role is always changing to meet the needs of society. But lets not blame the people filling the current needs of government labor. Treating them badly doesn’t solve the issue you have with government.
#87: I’m not vilifying public sector people on a personal level for working in the public sector. For the most part they all are hard working people, but public sector jobs and groups have no reason to be efficient or reduce costs like we do in the real world. When my budgets get cut you don’t see me picking in front of my bosses office. No, I tighten the boot straps and get to work. When government tries to do the same we are left with this fiasco like in WI. I’m also not suggesting public sector people should be paid minimum wage. My point is their benefits were designed to make up for the difference in wages. So, I’ll compromise, and if the public sector started running like the private sector, removed all unions and reduced the fat, then I have no problem paying them more. My point is you can’t have it both ways. Either you have the benefits of public sector work or higher wages. Pick one. If you don’t like what you get paid in the public sector quit and move on to something else. I don’t know why there is a sense of entitlement to specific jobs in this country. I bust my tail for what I have and more often than not the public sector just makes more and more demands for MY tax dollars. I have no problems paying for police, fire, etc type services through taxes, but now it’s gone way beyond that. Next we’ll be some communistic society where we’ll all have to sing kumbayah. What would the point of the private sector be if we continue to allow the public sector to grow?
>So we should place the burden of shrinking the public sector on the workers
Actually the unions are doing that on their own. Because they are insisting on high benefits, and got Democrats to leave town without a budget, there will now be more layoffs of the same public sector workers who they are supposed to be representing.
You mean money affects elections? Go figure.
Onions drove General Motors in the ground and the whole state of Michigan.
Sounds like great fucking plan to me.
So Uncle Dave, you going to do a union chart too? How about one for trial lawyers?
The political fog is getting thick. What happened to eqaulity and basics? Walker is just one of Kochs puppets. Thats the basic to explain the big companies and their republican political puppets to accomplish things like ” tax cuts for their companies and their incomes.” If the average Joe pays say a 10% tax on 30,000 a year income then the Kochs, Gm, Bank of America, etc. and the Ceo,s, company owners should be paying an eqaul 10% tax on all their property and income. Including bonuses. If this was happening like it should these budget problems wouldn’t be so severe, for starters. The greedy price gouging and hoarding of profits sucks the money out of the economy leaving it dry. The rich getting richer and the poor and middle class getting poorer. As for Obama who’s getting blamed for this economy is Bull ****. this was dropped in his lap from the bush Adm. and years of this corruptness being ignored and allowed. He’s just trying to clean up the mess. I dont think Donald Trump should run for president being a non people person that he is, but he’d be one hell of a financial advisor for the country. We should hire him. he has some great ideas about foriegn trade, building infrastructure here providing jobs, charging other countries for our services, I think Obama with trump advising and a democracy attitude we could get this country back on track and progress up to where we should be at this point in time. We’re getting caught up in all this “DRAMA” and rediculas debates. Like the Gay Marrige thing. Give them a “Union” license. Rename it instead of marrige. And have it that the same rules apply. Simple, Done! Just a thought to ponder. Seems like a fair compromise to me, no? The parties need to compromise as such for the benefit of the people, not the benefit of their puppet masters and political gain, brownie points, power, etc.
Senator Bernie Sanders I from Vermont is the man! Watch some of his videos either at his web site or on you tube. He has it in a nutshell! GO Bernie!!!