Oregon Live – Thursday, February 10, 2011:
Marin-Fuentes left his Southeast Portland home sometime between midnight and 12:30 a.m. Thursday and drove in his black Kia 1.4 miles to Portland Adventist Medical Center.
Suffering a heart attack, he crashed into a steel pillar and wall inside the first level of the hospital’s parking garage, below a sign that read “Emergency parking only” about 125 feet from the emergency room entrance.
No one noticed him for about 20 minutes, hospital officials said. But once a bystander did, the person flagged down Portland Officer Angela Luty, who was leaving the hospital’s emergency room on an unrelated traffic case.
Two minutes later, Luty and a second officer, Robert Quick, found Marin-Fuentes unresponsive and unconscious in his car in the parking garage, and began cardiopulmonary resuscitation.
Two other officers who arrived ran into the ER to seek help from medical personnel, and were told to call 9-1-1 for an ambulance, Portland Sgt. Pete Simpson said.
“Hospital said they won’t come out,” Officer Andrew Hearst radioed to dispatch. “We need to contact AMR first.”
The officers were stunned.
“It’s certainly very frustrating for the officers who are not medical professionals in a hospital parking lot, to be told they have to call for an ambulance to help this man. The officers didn’t stand there and argue, they continued CPR,” Simpson said. “But they were in disbelief.”
He was on hospital property (the parking garage attached to the hospital,) so I think the hospital ER staff was a fault.
That said, I’m sure the lawyers will stretch this out a year or two and into something which will make them a great many billable hours.
If the survivors are lucky, they might see a tiny bit of that.
#60 bobbo
But my head hurts and I’m afraid of doctors and doctor’s bills…
…I’ll just collapse here by the Emergency Room doors. Surely someone will come out and save me…
đ
Reagan–we all benefit by thinking more rather than emoting more–unless your brain rolls around in a ped pod like a small thing in a very large thing.
Actually–if an otherwise technically good doc runs shitless at the mention of a lawsuit–wouldn’t that define the doc you do not want at the scene of an accident but for the same reason very much defines who you want in the hospital still running shitless providing the best care so that he doesn’t get sued?
I think so. Shit is like that. Note that “fear” of various things is a human motivator==not a negative thing in all cases at all times.
Just a little “judgment.”
I got tired of reading the thoughtless, reflexive posts above at around #30 so, if I’m repeating someone’s response, please forgive.
# 8 cjohnson said, “how much more money the hospital can charge for the use of the ambulance” It’s a rare hospital, indeed, that runs an ambulance service these days. Too expensive and too much liability. Even if this hospital DOES have it’s own ambulance, a call routed through 911 would go to whichever ambulance was next in the rotation – not necessarily their own. Nope. No profit motive here. By the way – if you know that an ambulance operates out of a local hospital, check to see if it is also RUN and MANAGED by the hospital. Often not. They are contracted and/or pay rent to the ER for the use of their facilities and name. A hospital’s ambulance may also be licensed only as patient transport – not for providing emergency services.
# 11 jcostedpm said, “leaves the physicians open to litigation as they are nit covered under âgood Samaritanâ laws” interesting point but off target. First, assume they go to the car and bring the patient back into the hospital. Unlikely they would not charge for this service so the Good Sam do not apply. Second, there are also in most states, provisions in the Good Sam laws that make it an offense for the physician to NOT render assistance – if on the scene.
When I worked ER, we were allowed to attend to people within the drive way and out to the helicopter pad. This area was considered part of the ER facility. Extend outside the defined areas and you are no longer working within the scope of your work and that leaves you open to all sorts of nasty litigation not under the umbrella of the ER’s law firm or insurance.
But, let’s say you don’t care about the personal liability and you and couple of others go running the 100 feet or so to the car wreck. Got the Jaws o’ Life with you? No? Should have called 911. What if someone in the ER has a cardiac arrest but you and half the team are at the car wreck?
They can probably say it was on hospital property so the ER staff should have attended. Truth is, a LOT of ERs today are operated separately from the hospital. That way, if the ER makes a mistake, the hospital’s deep pockets are not turn out. Chances are it was not on the ER’s property.
But the most important reason? Hospital ER personnel are not trained to extricate people from crashed autos.
Also, as someone above pointed out, what if the next car accident is 200 feet away? Is that too far? 500 feet? At what point do they run out a tape measure and say, nope, too far?
I predict they will get sued and they will win.
A lot of things could be better if our society were not so litigious. But our fearless leader has stated there will be no tort reform under his administration. I leave the problem of those politics to ECA…
#63 bobbo
If you think I didn’t consider this, I am disappoint, dear bobbo.
Immediately, I also considered all of those other honest, brave doctors, lining up to testify against one of their own.
Want to know where you went wrong with your “off the cuff” judgement?
Fear is relative, not absolute. The cuff is frayed, dear bobbo.
Reagan–you are babbling.
Animby–I forgot that some good Sam laws REQUIRE the docs to give it a shot. Ha, ha. Reminds me that “if you don’t know the law” you might want to do what you think is “right?”
My new housemate when she moved in hit her thumb with a hammer and was bleeding and asked me for help putting on a bandaid. I got a little blood on my finger and immediately washed it off. Some time later, the babe casually stated she had aids. I said nothing. Later she said she had Hep-B. I said: you’ve got Hep B AND Aids? She said no, just Hep B. So who really knows what bag of diseases she has going on? Same with uncontrolled accident scenes. Same with choking restaurant patrons too stupid to chew food and NOT talk at the same time?
but next time she can bleed to death for all I care. I COME FIRST because I’ve got mine, and all y’all can go screw yourselves. And thats why I’m a libertarian and a liberal at the same time. Happy to pay for EMS services.
Praise be our Lord Darwin, projecting those who protect themselves.
Look, the guy was dead already. He was down for 20 minutes before someone noticed him. Does the hospital have to watch the parking lot for gomers? If you don’t start CPR within 5min your chances of coming back are below 10%, after 20 min it is less then a percent point, this guy was gone. But lets say he won the MI lottery, did the hosp have a cath lab or the ability to do open heart surgery within minutes, hypothermic therapy… Not all hosp have this level of capabilities. Without them your likelihood of walking out of the hosp drop like a piece of poop circling the john. This is why if you think you are having a MI, call 911. The EMT can start you on blood thinners, morphine, nitro and taking you to the right hosp increasing your likelihood of surviving.
Policies like this get changed after the law suit.
According to the linked article “… cited the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, passed in 1986, that requires all Medicare participating hospitals with emergency departments to treat any critically ill patients on their premises, including parking lots.”
Excellent catch there AC–and I have to get a firm hold on myself and stop being so friendly.
Can there possibly be “laws” that require docs to engage in good samaritan care? If true, that is just wrong in my view. People should be FREEEEEE in their private relationships. Now, I can see very narrow exceptions or application of this concept, but not a general law. Looks like a google session after my capacinno.
Gee, I agree with #68, deowll.
# 42 jcostedpm said, “These laws do not extend to trained medical professionals” Oh, my. I think you need a new lawyer. I haven’t read the statutes in every state but I’m willing to bet my next office visit fee they all have some verbiage in them that protects medical professionals from retribution. You are only permitted to render emergency care and not establish a professional relationship nor charge a fee for your service. And, yes, they do not protect you from gross negligence. But, even if you attended med school by mail order, you ought to be able to render first aid without being grossly negligent. And, as I stated in my previous post some, if not all, states make it a crime for you to NOT render assistance in an emergency. So, if you paid your attorney for this advice, I’d ask for a refund.
# 45 “His prediction” Wanna know MY prediction? The dead man’s family will sue the hospital in the hope of getting a settlement. They won’t get it and will end up eating the lawyers’ fees. Then the hospital will sue the man’s estate for millions of dollars of structural damage to their facility. And win.
You really do need a new lawyer. Or, better yet, pay one. Free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. So pay one for a change and make sure they read the law. Here’s the one from Arizona and most states’ are similar.
ARIZONA GOOD SAMARITAN LAW
Article 4, Emergency Aid
32-1471. Any health care provider licensed or certified
to practice as such in this state or elsewhere, or a licensed
ambulance attendant, driver or pilot as defined in 41-1831,
or any other person who renders emergency care at a public
gathering or at the scene of an emergency occurrence
gratuitously and in good faith shall not be liable for any civil
or other damages as the result of any act or omission by
such person rendering the emergency care, or as the result
of any act or failure of act to provide or arrange for further
medical treatment or care for the injured persons, unless
such person, while rendering such emergency care, is guilty
of gross negligence. As amended Laws 1978, Ch. 205,1
Maybe if his name were Ghhhphhhghh Rosenberg the outcome would be different.
Damn.. I should stop watching Joan Rivers’ shows..
Mr Confusion–agreeing with do-ill? Ha, ha. Yes, the law IS what it is because of lawsuits.
My goodness, Mayor and Vice Mayor of Simple Town.
Animby–quite right: http://suite101.com/article.cfm/emergencies_first_aid/64553/2
Course, I could absorb petty misdemeanors all day long unless a conviction of same is ipso facto liability in a companion civil lawsuit?
Details.
I am CPR and first aid certified for one reason my boss required me to attend the training. I am not a doctor never pretended to be one. If your choking or have a heart attack stroke etc while I am around you should hope somebody else is trained. Cause if not your gonna die. I will call 911 but that is the flat extent of my participation. I have no faith in the legal system and even less in 12 people who couldn’t get out of jury duty. If I helped you and you live great. If I help and you die or are injured by my help, there is a 100% chance I am going to get sued. That’s the world we live in get over it.
I think it is interesting how military people face the enemy and death so that we need not. But a doctor facing the death of another, can not lift a finger, else lose all that a soldier died protecting.
What a strange planet.
If we had Universal Healthcare, that red tape would not exist.
When the insured professionals cannot help call for the HMTT. Yes the Homeless Medical Transport Team has nothing to lose and can handle that last mile to safety.
We don’t do first aid but we will throw your butt into a shopping cart and see that you get into the emergency room. If you don’t make it your family will have to sue Kroger’s, it was their shopping cart originally. If you do make it we accept spare change, beer or wine.
If you need us yell real loud, we don’t have no phone.
You know, if you guys would stop responding to the idiot bobbo, he would shut the fuck up and go away. Then again, maybe not. I have a 4 year old niece like that.
a) The hospital staff is immoral, cowardly and not worthy of our respect. If they were given the opportunity to intervene, and they declined out of liability fears, they should lose their license.
b) Any judge that would rule against a doctor assisting a patient ANYWHERE is immoral, cowardly and not worthy of our respect, and should be impeached.
c) Any lawyer that is willing to take up a case against a medical professional that tries to assist an injured person is immoral, cowardly and not worthy of our respect, and should be disbarred.
We have lost the basic moral compass in our society when there is a single person that is willing to support the choice of letting people die rather than take a non-lethal risk.
Stand up for what is right, not for the easy way out.
Well, I was waiting for the docs to get ginned up again and tell us whether they were for God or Mammon, but I’ll bite:
So BlogZilla, you hate me and I hate vacuous comments with no substance. Could the two be related?
Awake: so you think anybody should be able to do anything to someone who needs help and no lawsuits can follow no matter what happens? If not, please tell us what your caveats would be and further why you think that isn’t the major effect of the actual current laws?
Does remind me of an old joke I can’t recall the details of but seems this guy tries to help someone, gets robbed, then gets hit by a truck, then hit by lightning, then attacked by crockodiles, then by wild dogs and as he lies near death in a ditch by the side of the road, a “good samaritan” comes up and our hero says “Thank god, you won’t believe what a day I’ve had” and the good samaritan drools and grins saying “Well, you ain’t gonna believe what happens next.”
So Awake–what to do with those who don’t even have “evil intent” but are just so incredibly ignorant they hurt other people in need? How about docs that are under suspension for alcohol/drug addiction? What about new age wierdo’s that think you should bleed everyone for anything and the good citizen dies from lack of blood?
How about forming your opinions with the full panoply of human stupidity the courts have to deal with?
No? You want to be as simple minded as our Vice Mayors?
Reality: not everyone being as well motivated/competent/able as yourself.
Bobbo –
Would you at least try to use an intelligent example if you are try to argue back. Your “old joke” is stupid and crude and totally unrelated to the topic of this discussion.
You have lost your touch. You used to provide insightful retorts and arguments, now it’s just silly similes that bear no resemblance to reality.
There must be only one explanation… you are not the real Bobbo, but some drooling impersonator.
For certified medical personnel to refuse treatment to anybody anywhere if an emergency arises is perverted. If a doctor is advised that there is an emergency situation with which he can help, he is certainly morally obligated to do so, and he should be legally compelled to do so.
I’m sure your tune would change drastically if you were in a big pileup on the freeway, ejected from the car, and lay there severely bleeding, only to have a doctor walk up from the stopped cars, take a look at you and say “Sorry, I’m not at my place of work, so I can’t help you.” And then watch him walk back to his car as you bleed away to death.
Dear awake, since obviously your not and we are all just a figment of your wild imagination. Could you please tell us what is the color of the sky in your make believe world. Tell us please is it also true that unicorns eat rainbows and shit butterflys in your reality?
Awake==thank you. Yes, being the resident troll is a burden. I argued the extreme to pull you away from your own extreme position. At least I’m “trying” rather than just repeat my obviously defective position as you have.
So, lets see. Can you believe it is possible for people to be entirely negligent in a way that they should be sued for the “care” they render==or is that simply impossible?
Speaking of the kindness of strangers and professionals: I’m watching “Dream House – Meet the Ruckles” and its just GREAT!! somebody at diy network finally got real. Like Mr Blandings Builds a Dream House==everything that can go wrong and criminal is happening to his lovely couple. Good thing they are rich bastards and can ride the wave of criminality, incompetence, and bureaucracy.
Best Dream Home I have ever seen.
From the linked article: “The officers were stunned. ”
Wow! I didn’t know hospitlas kept tazers. Can’t find the video on youtube, dang it.
Well, I wish I’d been able to access the article last night. How many of you, like me, did not RTFA before commenting? The hospital claims they sent assistance: “Portland Adventist Hospital officials say they followed protocol by calling 9-1-1 to the crash scene, and sent out the charge nurse, nursing supervisor and two security officials who have a mobile defibrillator to the parking garage. They also sent an ambulance paramedic who was at the hospital.”
As for the family: “His wife and brother-in-law had gone to the hospital later Thursday morning to try to take photos of any damage from the crash, and contact a lawyer.” So, they were obviously grief-stricken.
Animby–thanks for that but you are a bit confused. “Facts” don’t matter in a broad general discussion.
Its true.