truthout
Truthout’s reporting on the Army’s so-called “spiritual fitness” test was featured on Thursday by MSNBC host Keith Olbermann on Countdown.
Mikey Weinstein, president and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, discussed Jason Leopold’s report detailing the forced spiritual testing of over 800,000 uniformed soldiers as part of the Comprehensive Soldier Fitness Program.
The original report by Leopold can be viewed here.
I can imagine taking that testing: indicating no belief in anything. Ha, ha. Like the time I indicated no belief in Patriotism–or more so, that there was no reason for Russians not to be just as patriotic for all the same reasons: “But the Russians aren’t “free!” ===== “Yea, well I was drafted.”
Ha, ha. Yes, one of about 3 times my young ass almost got discharged. In todays more christian services, I’m sure I would be, just for having an opinion, and isn’t that the freedom we are all fighting for? No? Ha, ha.
Almost got kicked out for saying I would cave under torture as well and recommending sniveling cowards like me should not be told any secrets just in case we got caught. That went over like a lead balloon.
Yes, I know. How did I last thru to discharge? Still a mystery.
Typical of blogs — the headline is more inflammatory than the article.
The article raises a fair point about test bias. African Americans have been complaining about test bias for decades and now atheists have something to complain about.
It strikes me that the purpose of the test is valid — to assess the support systems a soldier has. Religion would be one among many possibilities — not essential and certainly not a deal-breaker. (and the article didn’t make think it was.)
An question for atheists: what kind of support or consolation does atheism give you when times get hard?
This is an honest question, BTW. I have never understood atheism in this regard.
There has to be more than “a meaningless life, followed by oblivion” which is how atheism strikes many people of faith.
Greg Allan==like any whitey not seeing the prejudice that is plain to any black man: religion under the sheeps clothing of “spiritualism” is plain to see if you aren’t a christian.
How is the “support system” of praying anything but a support of religion which is forbidden?
How is the “support system” of find a church anything but support of religion.
Greg Allan: this is as close to lying as I have witnessed in you. Lying or just that blind to your own bias? Any difference there worth the noting?
Add this to your list of “Religious Thinking.” Still a short list if you are keeping it? Ha, ha.
“I believe, I do, I believe……..”
Silly Hooman.
“An question for atheists: what kind of support or consolation does atheism give you when times get hard?”
When I ‘m having a bad day, I use my mind to deal with the situation instead of a mythical guy in the sky.
hahahahahahahahahahahahah,
#3–Greg Allan: I wager you have asked and had answered this question a few times. You just don’t like the answer.
Now you are lying and even trying to spin the issue to your own perverted ends.
How does anyone live without religion? Yes, a most important question. How about living on the common sense ((Dare I say Darwinian)) morality that informs even religious that most of the Bible is immoral and not to be followed?
How do people pick and choose the the good morality of the bible? How does god decide to no longer decimate the earth just because he is having a tizzy fit? Why don’t we stone our daughters for violating our commands?
Why? Because its is morality that formed religion, not the other way around.
Silly Greg Allan–not thinking you are as transparent as shit. I can smell your hypocrisy from here. Honestly. Why doesn’t the smelling apparatus of religious people work? I have asked this question many times and religious people never have an answer.
We need to get the military on this. Shoot a few non-believers. That will provide the needed mental health I tells ya.
Beyond stupid.
I retired in 2001 after 20 years in the Army. Everyone in my chain of command knew I was an atheist but wouldnt dare pull any crap like this on my soldiers because they knew they would receive the wrath of ME rather than god. Being a Senior NCO helps because no one can really do anything to me for enforcing the rights of my soldiers. The sad thing is that NCO’s today are forced through the system (by way of time in grade/time in service you must be at “x” rank) with many of them not ready to take charge. Its a lousy system. As such you have a buttload of weak NCO’s who are afraid/unwilling to lead by example. The other half is you have these idiot evangelical NCO’s who absurdly think they are “gods warriors leading a crusade”. On top of that you have young officers who also dont have any balls that have no choice but do whatever the officers over him say no matter how wrong they may be. The sad thing is, GEN Patton would never make it past 1ST Lieutenant in todays military. The military is doomed unless someone at the very top grows a pair of balls and does what is right.
@Greg Allen – An question for atheists: what kind of support or consolation does atheism give you when times get hard?
It’s called being of sound mind and body. I don’t have to believe in invisible zombies to make it through my day or to figure why the sun shows up in the sky everyday. To a rational human being we ask the same of people like you. “Why are you so pathetically weak that requires you to seek invisible beings for you to have a purpose in life?”
“There has to be more than “a meaningless life, followed by oblivion” which is how atheism strikes many people of faith.”
My life is VERY meaningful. I have 4 fabulous atheist kids who are excelling quite well through life, unlike my chiristian neighbors who so far have 1 kid in drug rehab, one pregnant 16 year old and one in jail again for the 3rd time. I have a great wife and a job I love. When I die it will end just like it will for you. Nothingness. I’m not afraid of death in the least. You are though. You are terrified. Thats why you are mentally weak and require an invisible person to pray to. Sad.
Olbermann had OReally has the worlds worst human last night regarding his religious views. OReally proof of god was that ” the tide rolls in, the tide rolls out, without communication errors, and you (his guest) can’t explain why!”
that is so mind blowingly retarded his guest, some atheist guy, said the tide was caused by Thor’s lightning bolts. I think he was as shocked as I was by OReally’s religious stupidity.
How can atheists live not understanding god’s love for us by regulating the tides? Yes, how indeed. How did human beings form family units, take care of the sick and dying, bury their dead, hope for a better future for 10’s of thousands of years before Jesus Christ arrived?
Its a miracle!!!!!
Any kind of “Spritual” testing is CLEARLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL !!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Religious_Test_Clause
No Government Funcitionary is able to impose this sort of test – even in the Military !!!
Case Closed !!!
#11
Apparently you have never been in the military. We dont “follow orders without question”. We follow LAWFUL orders without question. There is a huge difference if you knew anything about the military.
My support comes from the soldier to the left and right of me. Nothing “spritual” about it. Sometimes its a woman, sometimes they are gay, some have a misdemeanor in their past (felons and those with below average intelligence are not allowed in). And if you have a sense of honor, integrity, discipline and instill that in your soldiers then thats all the support you need. No need for invisible people.
I’ve heard that the Air Force Academy is rife with “jet jockeys for Jesus.”
#12–NCO==that is very life affirming to hear. What illegal order did you ever disobey?
Or was every order you ever received legal and lawful?
Or–did you ever issue any unlawful orders?
I followed lots of illegal orders while in the military. I went along to get along dontcha know?
Ha, ha. You’re sounding like Greg Allan now. But any answer and no answer will be quite telling. Hey, just like Greg Allan?
I’d say a bigger problem is the forced sexual harassment training instituted by the big companies, essentially forced on them by the government.
@Greg Allen
Enlightenment is a better support system than deities.
Check into it, and what resulted from it.
#15 I don’t need training, according to the lawyers I do it quite well by nature.
#7 NCO – I got in trouble with our chaplain. When he asked me what I liked most about Jesus Christ, I said him, saying his name when I get frustrated.
Seems to me the military ought to encourage atheism. Who’s more likely to come back from a combat mission? Somebody who believes a bullet can end existence or someone ready to go get wings (or 72 virgins)and sing hosannas in jeweled cities for all eternity?
Religion: Don’t ask, don’t tell for the 21st Century?
Bobbo,
I’m not sure of why you are accusing me of lying about.
It really is an honest question — what in atheism brings you comfort or support in a time of struggle?
I will NEVER ever say that atheists are inferior in any way to religous people. Clearly, many are better.
But where in the atheistic world view does one get solace or strength or consolation or any of the things most humans need for the hard times?
Seems to me, as misguided as this test may be, that is what they are looking for.
Rational Human,
I guess I’m not connecting the dots.
How is being a rational atheist give you comfort?
Pure rational Darwinism tells me that your life or that of your children are not any more, or less, meaningful than the bug that hit my windshield on the way home from work.
How does that give you any sort of comfort or sense of meaning during the hard times?
>> Publius said, on January 7th, 2011 at 5:25 pm
>> @Greg Allen
>> Enlightenment is a better support system than deities.
You don’t need to be condescending. I’ve studied the Enlightenment. There was some great philosophy but there was also that bloody inconvenient French Revolution as well!
In any regard, how is it a comfort or support to you in the hard times?
Greg Allen asked “An question for atheists: what kind of support or consolation does atheism give you when times get hard?”
What kind of support or consolation does a basketball give a fish when times get hard? Dude, that’s a kind of a non-sensical question when you think about it. You may want to ask what kind of comfort does my first year Calculus textbook give me when times get hard. Actually, that would make more sense.
Just think of it this way: when times are difficult for me, I turn to my wife, family, and friends for support. I can rely on them and they can rely on me. Maybe that sounds a little weird but that’s what most atheists do.
Just so you guys don’t misunderstand me…
I don’t know enough about this test to defend it.
The article made me believe that religion was among a list of possible support systems that a returning soldier might have to help them.
I see no problem with this, unless the test has a bias for religion above other support systems. Certainly, that’s how some atheist soldiers perceived it and I’m sympathetic to that.
NCO, have you read this article in The Atlantic?
Greg Allen said “I see no problem with this, unless the test has a bias for religion above other support systems.”
You’re missing the point. The test was designed by a well know pop psychologist who hopes you’ve hugged a puppy today. It’s how your CO “interprets” the results that matter.
foobar,
What you say would make more sense of atheism where a trivial past time like basketball.
But atheism is a whole world view.
Atheism says that we have brief temporal consciousness which is erased at death, leaving everything meaningless. This would include your family, as well.
How would that world view be an emotional support to a returning soldier?
foobar,
>>You’re missing the point. The test was designed by a well know pop psychologist who hopes you’ve hugged a puppy today.
You can probably convince me on that point.
(Not about puppy hugging.. which could be good therapy.)
If this guy had ANYTHING to do with Bush’s torture policy, he should be in jail rather than creating expensive tests for the military.
>> JimD said, on January 7th, 2011 at 3:11 pm
>> Any kind of “Spritual” testing is CLEARLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL !!!
>> Case Closed !!!
Case never made.
It strikes me as perfectly reasonable to assess the support system of returning combat soldiers.
This would include religion but only as a part of a long list of possibilities.
Let me risk an example, even though I know the atheists here are going to smear it.
I personally knew a Vietnam veteran who returned home and, within a couple of weeks, was in a car crash that killed his finance and seriously injured him. He had no family in town, no job or work friends. I was have serious suicidal feelings.
The guy started attending our church and told his story. A pastor spent many hours counseling him. We lay people became his friends and many people had him over for dinner and similar. We prayed with him and for him.
By this own account, we saved his life.
Now, you can believe religion is pure fantasy but you can’t deny that religion was a support for that returning solider.
Was it the only support available to him? Of course not.
Greg Allan==god, I feel so that you are pimping me, but as I like giving myself cover: you aren’t the only one with the same question, so I answer for others who may not have your wicked sense of humor.
My Mom died last year. How did I get thru it? I remembered my good times with her. I was happy for her that she did not have to suffer the shingles she had for 5 years. I was happy she really didn’t feel any pain from the cancer that took her from start to finish in about 6 months. I took comfort in knowing she was surrounded by those who loved her and who she loved in her final days. I was happy she never lost her sense of humor or her memory and that she read books until the last week of her life. I wonder if her non-judgmental ways ultimately helped or hurt her children and grandchildren–finally deciding they hurt by not giving them stronger values to begin with but then probably helped in giving them a rock to rely on. I felt sorry that too many in my Mom’s situation got the same crappy care she did and worse for those who don’t even get what she did. I was sad she was in too much pain to enjoy traveling and seeing her friends around the world, but as said, happy she could still walk around, read, enjoy a good meal now and then.
It made me reflect on my own mortality, that my time is coming on its own schedule. I hope I stay as healthy as I am and as she was. I note ruefully that I will have no family support system as she did, but no kiddies stealing me blind before they flock around for the inheritance either.
I take heart in the recognition that we all die. I am forewarned that health and simple joys/accomplishments are all that matters, in the main, and these are available to us all if we look inward for these things. I wonder if she died and went to heaven, who would she be? The girl graduating high school, the young woman getting married, the young mother raising kiddies alone as the old man was always gone on business, the widow, the old woman feeling sorry for her friends in poor health who outlived her? The gentle pressure from the two religious sisters for her to find peace and Mom’s gentle response to ignore them. Ha, ha. She was MY MOTHER – not theirs. Happy that she and I had that bond that we weren’t savages or reformed drug addicts trying to get by in life preying on others less reckoning.
So–heaven and religion came into my thoughts, god never did. Close but no salvation. There is, what is your word—–comfort and support knowing that in times of struggle I haven’t turned to faith healers or gypsies, or any false god of personal preferences.
Just the world as I find it and my limited time at bat. Do I think others find comfort in religion? Of course, the logic is self evident. As is the lack thereof. All rather self evident. I take comfort in being honest.
As close to an eulogy as Mom will ever get from me. Sisters gave her a ceremony but I didn’t attend. That gave me comfort too, not engaging in ceremony.
Since we all struggle, or not, every day in our lives, interesting I would go to Mom’s death. I struggled more with the toilet bowl leaking last week and I’m still upset god didn’t answer my prayers on that one.
Ha, ha. To each our own. So, now you have one answer to your question. I suppose you can still continue to say you’ve never gotten an answer you understand.
We are all the same, yet different, at the same time. Not ying/yang but how a general concept can be implemented by many different approaches. Taking comfort during times of struggle is one such life challenge. We all need and find comfort making us all the same. We find it in different ways, making us all different. I take comfort in that idea as well.
Greg Allen said” Atheism says that we have brief temporal consciousness which is erased at death, leaving everything meaningless. This would include your family, as well.”
Honestly, you should think this through. You just implied that my family is meaningless.
“Atheism is a world view”. Um no. Atheism is rejection of the belief in existence of deities. And if someone named God shows up and says “Hey I created the universe and here’s the YouTube video to prove it” then I’d say “What do you know? God exists. Let me buy you a beer.”
In the meantime, I know my dog Clancy exists since I just took him for a walk, fed him dinner, and gave him a chewy for actually existing in a perfectly obvious way. I don’t have to believe in Dog, he exists.
Believe what you want. I’ve heard worse. Just don’t expect me to believe in your belief. And shame on you for implying other people are meaningless.
It’s about time for a similar spiritual fitness test for all elected offices in the USA, for the same reasons the Army was doing it.
And then let’s see just how that all works out.