The “ground zero mosque,” as you may well know by now, is not at ground zero. It’s not a mosque but an Islamic cultural center containing a prayer room. It’s not going to determine President Obama’s political future or the elections of 2010 or 2012. Still, the battle that has broken out over this project in Lower Manhattan — on the “hallowed ground” of a shuttered Burlington Coat Factory store one block from the New York Dolls Gentlemen’s Club — will prove eventful all the same. And the consequences will be far more profound than any midterm election results or any of the grand debates now raging 24/7 over the parameters of tolerance, religious freedom, and the real estate gospel of location, location, location.
Here’s what’s been lost in all the screaming. The prime movers in the campaign against the “ground zero mosque” just happen to be among the last cheerleaders for America’s nine-year war in Afghanistan. The wrecking ball they’re wielding is not merely pounding Park51, as the project is known, but is demolishing America’s already frail support for that war, which is dedicated to nation-building in a nation whose most conspicuous asset besides opium is actual mosques.
So virulent is the Islamophobic hysteria of the neocon and Fox News right — abetted by the useful idiocy of the Anti-Defamation League, Harry Reid and other cowed Democrats — that it has also rendered Gen. David Petraeus’s last-ditch counterinsurgency strategy for fighting the war inoperative. How do you win Muslim hearts and minds in Kandahar when you are calling Muslims every filthy name in the book in New York?
You’d think that American hawks invested in the Afghanistan “surge” would not act against their own professed interests. But they couldn’t stop themselves from placing cynical domestic politics over country. The ginned-up rage over the “ground zero mosque” was not motivated by a serious desire to protect America from the real threat of terrorists lurking at home and abroad — a threat this furor has in all likelihood exacerbated — but by the potential short-term rewards of winning votes by pandering to fear during an election season.
Are any of you in New York planning to go to the rallies to be a part of the manipulated, “look over there” crowd?
Inside Islam: What a Billion Muslims Really Think
Muslims around the world offer opinions on prejudice, religion, gender justice, terrorism and democracy.
On PBS Monday Night (11PM PST) with repeats during the week.
Cursor/Animby==yes there are points of comparison between Catholics and Muslims but it is the differences that I’m addressing. The Bishop of New York suggests that excommunication would be appropriate and refuses to give the Mayor of NYC a cookie because he supports the abortion law that is on the books. Imagine the same “disagreement” between government and religion in Saudi Arabia? You can’t because there is no such disagreement. And its Muslims not Catholics that reach out in foreign lands to kill people who disagree. That is a difference.
What are we “to do” if the World Survey shows mainstream Muslim attitudes are anti-democratic? Can we still label their leadership (( again==THEIR LEADERSHIP!!! )) as a “fringe element?”
One characteristic of the human being is the ability to predict the future. Right now, the Muslims in the West are a minority and their honor killing ways can be put up with in the name of Freedom. It would be nice to take care of the baby snake while it could still be flicked away rather than wait 100 years until they become an actual threat?
Maybe we should just use the zoning laws to require all Muslims to live within 50 feet of the ocean and let Global Warming take care of them. Two long term problems that we can’t deal with today taking care of each other.
There is beauty in that kind of symmetry.
Doddo, //==H/e/l/p==Me!@@@@, these===d/a/m/n key=s are so con/fus/ing, said, Blah blah blah they’re all out to get me.
I’m sorry to disappoint you Doddo, putting all the Muslims in the world on the beaches will not stop the ocean from rising. So your contrived idea is a fail.
Doddo, do you have any personal non-contrived ideas?
And please keep up your long winded idiotic rants; it makes them easier to spot.
#40–fargonads==not a single idea? Sad.
Wow!… I didn’t know that I was a “Modern Liberal progressive”. I’ve always tried to be logical and moderate. The Contitution is a pretty progressive document though.
Let’s take a look at that pesky little First Amendment:” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…or the right of the people peaceably to assemble…”
Maybe the Constitution is a living and breathing document or something.
I remember, not so long ago, when Republicans were always quick to point out that we are a “republic”, not a “democracy”. That’s nice rhetoric when you are in the majority, but dang inconvenient when you want to whip up a mob.
Alfred: If it can be proven that funding for it comes from terrorists, I think that would be more than reasonable grounds for the local zoning board to reject it.
On a different point, let’s turn this around. Has anyone considered that Rauf picked this spot on purpose, knowing it would create this kind of outcry? Extremists in the Middle East can then point and say, see what bigots and liars and everything else American’s are? They want to be our friends in Iraq and Afghanistan, but they hate us still and are no different now than in the past.
In other words, by yelling and screaming, we’re playing into anti-US hands.
Doddo, thanks for not calling me a fag this time… I was really hurt when you did that.
Assholes have feeling too.
# 39 bobbo, “Imagine the same “disagreement” between government and religion in Saudi Arabia? You can’t because there is no such disagreement.”
You won’t find any diagreement in the Vatican, either. The King or the Pope – both are theocrats.
“And its Muslims not Catholics that reach out in foreign lands to kill people who disagree.”
Absolutely right. THIS year. But it’s not always been that way and may not be in the future. If some new “infallible” leader suddenly interprets the bible to mean non-Christians should not be allowed to live, you could bet your bank account a bunch of idiots would take it as god’s word and start knocking off the heathens.
I think you know, I’m not defending Islam. And not really accusing Catholicism. I think all religions are frauds and only put up with them because, despite the contradictions and inhumane attitudes, they do bring comfort to lots of people.
As for the mosque, there is no special reason to build on the Coat Factory land. The refusal, in the face of massive opposition, to move to other,less controversial locales strikes me as provocative.
>As for the mosque, there is no special reason to build on the Coat Factory land. The refusal, in the face of massive opposition, to move to other,less controversial locales strikes me as provocative.
It’s not provocative, it is lucrative. These guys bought the building at a discount, and because of its Ground Zero location they are able to roll in big money from Islamists overseas.
Andy McCarthy has been saying the difference between Islam and other religions is not violence, but that the violent form is Islam is rooted in the texts, and that moderate Islam would inherently be a violation of scripture.
#45–fargonads==ha, ha. Yes. I felt bad for doing that myself. Just the first play on words I came up with and I censored myself for those that find the word offensive. As rough as I play, its still mostly for fun. (Things not said.)
#46–Animby==I accept your goodwill towards all, and your sense of fun. Still, not even a boy scout working on his first aid merit badge would confuse/equate/conflate The Vatican, small as it is, with the Millions of square miles occupied and targeted by the Muslims. When you make such arguments, it speaks volumes that you have no argument at all. Like fargonads, next you’ll be talking about your feelings.
#47–ah Mickey==of course it is lucrative for the developer and provocative to those who like to be provoked. Nice demonstration of how conservatives can’t juggle two balls at once even when there is no conflict in doing so. You guys take the KISS principle to ludicrous ends.
#48–Mickey==I’m not a bible scholar but don’t all the scriptures advocate violence towards the non-believers/apostate? So thats not the issue. The issue is todays Islam acts on those scriptures while the other brain dead religious types don’t. Thats my only issue.
Freedom of Religion does not trump the treason provision of the Constitution. another two ball juggling act the simple minded can’t accomplish.
If Islam is a religion, then the KKK, the mafia and Nazism can be religions.
How does so much stupidity get packed into just four little paragraphs?
# 49 bobboon, (sorry, just fighting back for fargonnaz), “…confuse/equate/conflate The Vatican, small as it is, with the Millions of square miles occupied and targeted by the Muslims.”
I hereby give up on this one. None of you can seem to understand I am not equating these two entities. Merely expressing how most religions are just so much hokum. I admit I have a special place in my heartfelt disgust for RCs.
“…next you’ll be talking about your feelings.”
Good grief, man! I have no feelings. I’m a doctor!
#52–counterweight (excellent name btw) or Animby? You are answering as if you are Animby and I have not responded to counterweight, yet Animby posts in his own name. Copy and paste error??
You certainly did equate those two entities just as you do in the very following sentence. Maybe if you are expressing thoughts that no one else understands or agrees with ((we could both name a few here who do that?)) then maybe you are just wrong? In that vein, “and I don’t know why everybody keeps getting this wrong” you are only focusing on the similarities and not the differences. You gotta do both to understand any issue. Conclusions drawn on single instances of similarity or differences or even multiples thereon ARE ALWAYS FAULTY. You gotta compare both before drawing conclusions. Kinda like a differential diagnosis. Not just one symptom. Heh, heh, and I learned THAT before I got my merit badge. I don’t think my Den Chief would approve of your baseless jumps to conclusions.
Didn’t Bones say: “My God Jim, I’m a doctor not a machine!” aka, nothing but epithelial wrapped emotions.
Pat Condell says it better then I ever could.
#53 Bobbo – Yes, that was me. My apologies. I’m not sure how I did that. I give, as my excuse, I was in a Cessna 172 flying from Luang Prabang to Vientiane trying to type on my Nexus One. And, no. The pilot didn’t care if I was using my phone, though the reception varied widely and we were bouncing around a lot. Now I’m sitting in a sidewalk cafe in a town so tainted by the French that everyone smokes – even while they eat. (I used to be a smoker. Never understood eating AND smoking at the same time!)
As for the rest of the discussion, I give up. I don’t seem to be able to express my opinion adequately.
By the way, doctors DO have feelings. It’s surgeons who are machines.
It certainly appears that very few people even bothered to read the article. It is much more important that people continue to rant their prejudices juiced up by the radical right.
#56–Mr Fusty==Well, I for one did not read the link as it is irrelevant to my tangential/superseding issue. But I presume you did read it? What facts in the link would lead someone to change their mind for the better or worse???
“Rant their prejudices” so I assume the linked article if read would make “anti Islam in american until they recognize other peoples’ right to disagree” more accepting of the ground zero Mosque? How so?
Animby: “My God Jim, I’m a doctor not a typist!”
I do love those jokes about a GP, a Surgeon, and a Pathologist evaluate something. Always a crack up especially if its dogs named as those specialties. Or, if Vietnam: ducks?
Of course the “Ground Zero Mosque” national crisis is neither. However, it has all the saucy words the GOP needs to stir the sheep.
2 points the MSM don’t get:
1) It’s NOT a Mosque, it’s a community center, with a prayer space.
2) It’s NOT at ground zero, it’s about 3 walking blocks away, which in NYC is like being in another part of the City. You couldn’t even see the towers from there if they were still standing.
If we decide not to have the community center there, how about removing ALL Catholic Churches that are near, or have schools in them, after the debacle with priests molesting children. It would be in the same vain as this is.
Also remove all Roman Catholic churches. The RC Church was responsible for the Crusades, which killed MILLIONS!
Really, people have to get over it, and get a life. Build the damn thing wherever they want.
Any elected official who wishes to limit a groups rights to assembly, and practice their religion IN ANY WAY, should step down from office, or be impeached, because they are going against their oath of office, which states that they shall uphold the US Constitution!
#62 Rouser – My god, man! The Catholics are STILL killing people. Didn’t you see that documentary, “The DaVinci Code”?
Real adults see religion for what it truly is:
a mental disorder.
I don’t think Andy McCarthy is a religious expert, but he is clearly saying that the non-violent Christians are compatible with the Bible, in a way that Muslims would not be.
Frank Rich thinks complaining about the Ground Zero Mosque would cause US failure in Afghanistan? This is pure politics, as he has already declared the US failure in Afghanistan.
nytimes.com/2010/08/01/opinion/01rich.html?_r=1
nytimes.com/2009/12/06/opinion/06rich.html
nytimes.com/2009/10/11/opinion/11rich.html
There aren’t many religions that wouldn’t move such a place due to local antagonism. Israel comes to mind as another, but anyway…their insensitivity strikes me wrong.
That said, the GOP press took a non-story and conflated it beyond all it deserved.
I would normally warn against muslims, but it seem enough appreciate the sucidial aspect of allowing the islamic trash into this country. There is no reason we can’t deport them, and the mexicans lowering our standard of living right along with them.
Each muslim, peaceful or not, provides a support system for those engaged in jihad, either finiacial or emotional. Unless you want to condemm your children to Dihimmi status them you’d better loose the PC bullshit and start voting and doing things that favor your children and not what the leftist/elitist want. They’ve already gone over to the muslims and are buying property in Dubai.
Europe is lost, North America is the only non-muslim country left. It’s up to you, fight or convert. Remember this is the religion that believes it’s the woman’s fault for being raped and see honor rape as just.
Whatever……………………………….
Traaxx
I would believe the sincerity of the foam-at-the-mouth right wingers more if they had actually protested the establishment of this Islamic center MONTHS AGO when it was FIRST ANNOUNCED. It was in the newspaper, even conservative writers said no big deal. But then the Republicans decided to latch onto it as a wedge issue, started telling lies and half truths, and voila, manufactured scandal.
You wingnuts are such credulous, easily led, easily fooled idiots.
#70 little pedro, if you weren’t protesting this thing back when it was originally announced, you’re looking pretty stupid now getting all bent out of shape by it. FYI.
#73 Yes, I understand, little pedro. Your main goal here is not to take a stand or say anything intelligent, but to call people stupid. Gotcha.
Whereas I try to say something intelligent and then call you stupid. 🙂
#60. That pretty much sums this up.
Now that I taught you sheeple to “follow the money” , I invite you to learn the corrolary “follow the motive”. Both techniques are well know by crime solvers.
#74. Yup.