My feeling is that it’s good when it means that we put our interests above everyone else’s, but bad when it leads to unnecessary wars and economic sanctions. What do you guys think?
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Its “Jacob” now? Is your brother Jack, split personality, alter-mood, or just forgetful?
hmmmm, very suspicious.
I’ll look at the video later, but right now, the answer is NO. Its never good because it is an artificial construct. Details determined on exact subject discussed.
Basic issue is that all human beings share more in common than the groups we can be artificially placed in. Such divisions do not increase human autonomy but rather increase the power of the State against each on of us.
The fact the question can even be asked prompts one for the second time in two days to ask Pedro to chime in:
Pedro==what would you call this?
Say, uh, do they have the 4th of July in Canada?
Patriotism is good. For the military-industrial complex that is. Huge profits are made when the materiel they produce is purchased with tax dollars in order to fight a specious war under a dubious rationale.
At its root, patriotism is the feeling that “we” are more deserving that “they” are, which is just an extension of personal self-interest to include the tribe to which one belongs, versus all other tribes. Virtually by definition, it is not objective, and it often becomes the basis for some very unhealthy competitions.
We deserve to be happier than they do.
We deserve to be wealthier than they do.
We deserve to live more than they do.
Patriotism evokes some of the most basic human instincts, and we live in a world where those instincts are frequently encouraged and exploited by the state.
I’m fascinated that none of the contributors above have watched the video.
I won’t speak to the question but rather to the video.
These two guys are brilliant, highly educated and well spoken but they try to hard to make sure we know it.
Two words they used repeatedly are excellent examples of this point: Meaningfulness and Particularism. Puh-leeze!
Look dudes, you’re way smart and rakishly handsome. Just give it to us straight and cut the bullshit.
I look forward to their next video and thank you Johnnie C for introducing me to bh.
Stopped after 20 min. Ok for high school kiddies.
I will get back to you Jack/ Jacob or John (or Adam?), I would like to discuss but I don’t have enough time now. Short answer, yes / no / it depends.
Patriotism
is believing in something.
but it should ALSO include that you UNDERSTAND the reason.
“JUST BECAUSE..” isnt a reason.
One question I might even retire to research and write about: why did the colonies revolt?
More spefically, it was the rich and educated and worldly folk that lead the revolution. The revolutionary leaders were the richest people in our country.
It really was a “fluke” that Washington finally won the war–mostly because the British weren’t all that motivated and so forth. Silly to think the King of France would aid a rebel group seeking independence. Sure, it hurts your main enemy but the attack on aristrocracy was also clearly seen.
The colonies were the lightest taxed of any people who actually did benefit greatly under the British umbrella. The rich had the most to lose and the least to gain. I’ve never understood why they took this risk–at least should have waited until they fought a few more wars and won them? Until the indians weren’t waiting at the back door? Until France or Spain would formally join us?
The question rarely gets asked, and is never answered. Its just “a given” that our Founding Fathers sought independence.
Ideas? Links?
A twentieth century survivor’s response to the question in this topic would need to context having survived two world wars, economic depression, nuclear confrontations, numerous genocides, terrorism, over population, famine and violent religious zealotry. Perhaps, patriotism is good IF it improves or secures the expression of common will. Patriotism to a despot is in no one’s better interest.
It’s good for the Republicans who use it to drum up support for policies that send jobs overseas, screw poor people, and help the military establishment.
I’ve quoted this before but it is well worth repeating. From the Devil’s Dictionary:
“PATRIOTISM, n. Combustible rubbish read to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name.
In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first.”
I like Grandpa. I’d buy him a drink.
After a number of pauses I took from the video to attend to other things, I eventually made it to the end. I found it a little ironic when Jonah Goldberg was expressing the notion that American patriotism was qualitatively different from that of other countries, because OUR patriotism is based on the founding principles of our nation and not the “lesser” brand of patriotism found in other countries (I’m paraphrasing).
Anyone who says that OUR patriotism is fundamentally different is missing something.
Newsflash!
Lefties aren’t patriotic!
Har.
It is not a yes/no question, because it leaves out the principles upon which a nation conducts its affairs. Absent the concepts upon which the U.S. was founded, patriotism can be as shallow as rooting for the local sports team, but with those concepts it can be used to change the world for the better. Being a patriot to a free republic is one thing, being a patriot in a fascist state is another. What are you supporting?
#16–birch==may I call you “John?” Yes, our (USA) patriotism is conceptually better founded than other countries.
Are you feeling it yet?
Brain Dead?
John Stossel hosting “Whats Good About America” on Fox starts in 10 min with a repeat later.
If you aren’t catching his libertarian reviews on Fox Business News Channel, its worth a look. “Stossel” on FBN once a week with 4-5 repeats.
As a lib, I support many of his views. Its only when he goes LIEbertarian that he can be faulted. But he is a good hypocrit. I wonder if he did rebuild his ocean front home the third time with Government provided insurance? Yes, that program is a scam putting all us land locked peasants into slavery so the rich can rebuild their summer homes.
But isn’t THAT what makes America Great?
Patriotism is good when you _DON’T_ put your own interests above everyone else. National prosperity doesn’t need to be a zero-sum game.
55% increase in death taxes coming 01-01-2011. patriotism yea, this robinhood bullshit, no
Patriotism is good, blind nationalism sucks. We have far fewer patriots these days than we have blind nationalists.
Patriotism, as in “pride in country”, is fine. Nationalism and exceptionalism (as in “we’re the best and everyone else is backwards because they aren’t just like us” and “it’s wrong when they do it because they’re bad, but when we do the same thing it’s OK because we’re exceptional!”) are very, very bad.
I best sum it up with this quote from Carl Schurz: “My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”
>> SparkyOne said, on July 3rd, 2010 at 5:10 pm
>> 55% increase in death taxes coming 01-01-2011. patriotism yea, this robinhood bullshit, no
You can always spot the brainwashed conservatives when they use focus-grouped terms like “death taxes” instead the real names for things.
That link is an hour long and it starts out boring so I’ll just spout off on the headline
“Discussion: Is Patriotism Good?”
I have a dream that will one day we will not judge our nation by the color of it’s flag but by the content of it’s character.
Remember most of us are only citizen of our countries by luck of the draw at birth.
Us vs. them is a natural human attitude, we generally will see “us” as the good guys, our team “them” as everyone else. In this metaphor wanting your team to win is being patriotic. What about wanting your team to win when you know your team has been cheating? Would the true fan/patriot want there team to clean up its act and might even think in some cases his team has cheated so much that they don’t deserve to win this one and need a new coach and players who can win fair and square?
Takes years to put together a good team and even then you have to keep an eye on how they play and be ready to replace the ones who drop the ball to often.
So go team USA and no more cheating I want to be proud of the content of our character.
I’ll let you know tomorrow night, after my 14th beer and 7th hot dog….*belch*.
Just kidding, I’ll be hiking in Utah enjoying this country, and not waving fucking American flags made in China.
#24, yes and the “death taxes” I believe only affect those getting 3 million US or above in an estate.
It is part of the 2 trillion in taxes that Bush2 did not collect so the people in this range could afford their 6th or 11th home. (Looking at you John McCain)
Death taxes? There’s no such thing in the United States as a death tax. No one gets taxed for dying. After all, they’re dead.
Patriot?…..Matriot?
I am an Omnitriot.
In high school I resisted going to a pep-rally because my school, like most others, was populated almost entirely by douche-bags. I asked instead to go the library where I could learn more stuff. I was denied the library and instead just went home. Then I wrote a letter to the school newspaper describing this situation. It was printed and I got a lot of positive comments from my teachers, which was sort of surprising.
This just brings me back. First, both of the interlocutors are douche bags. They remind me of practitioner sociology books. These tomes rarely push ideas, mostly they dump on papers by other professional sociologists. Sort of a bitchy game of “telephone” with big words.
If you gain self worth by supporting or resisting some philosophy I have nothing against you. At the same time it is deeply unsatisfying to say that it is always situational, because then you are saying exactly nothing.
I am against a coerced or advertised “pep.” The value of a free society is that there is a changing balance of consent and dissent.
Let me give an example. After 9/11, Bush and his people took to wearing a specific flag lapel pin. It looks like the flag is unfurled in a breeze. This pin, its representation anyway, started to appear on red state road signs.
Obama wears a flag lapel pin of different design, his looks like the flag is laid out square.
Stuff on that level, and most of it is on that level, is entirely without value. Mostly when people talk about “the team” they want you to do something for them without any reciprocal action on their part.
I am not a politically partisan person because I haven’t found a party that stands for my beliefs. That doesn’t mean I am unable to express a political opinion. The Republican party since Nixon has become more and more wrong. It is now exactly wrong and varies only in enthusiasm for its wrongness.
The best ones we ever produced were: FDR, Andrew Jackson, and Thomas Jefferson. That is pretty good.
For comparison, the worst ever: Woodrow Wilson, Alexander Hamilton, and Ronald Reagan.
I knew a few of the posters were anti-American but I didn’t think so many would be such pansies. Lets sum up the views expressed here: “No, its bad to have patriotism because it makes you think your better than others, and that would hurt feelings”
GROW A PAIR, I know this hurts but as an American you are part of the greatest country ever. Are we perfect?, NO we’re not but we are far superior to anyone in the past, presently or in the future.
Yes, when I see the American flag, I get a lump in my throat. Further, every American on the Fourth of July should shed a tear for what sacrifices were made to build this country.