Makes you wonder what else was translated or interpreted incorrectly.
The crucifix is the defining symbol of Christianity, a constant reminder to the faithful of the sacrifice and suffering endured by Jesus Christ for humanity. But an extensive study of ancient texts by a Swedish pastor and academic has revealed that Jesus may not have died on a cross, but instead been put to death on another gruesome execution device.
Gunnar Samuelsson — a theologian at the University of Gothenburg and author of a 400-page thesis on crucifixion in antiquity — doesn’t doubt that Jesus died on Calvary hill. But he argues that the New Testament is in fact far more ambiguous about the exact method of the Messiah’s execution than many Christians are aware.
“When the Gospels refer to the death of Jesus, they just say that he was forced to carry a “stauros” out to Calvary,” he told AOL News. Many scholars have interpreted that ancient Greek noun as meaning “cross,” and the verb derived from it, “anastauroun,” as implying crucifixion. But during his three-and-a-half-year study of texts from around 800 BC to the end of the first century AD, Samuelsson realized the words had more than one defined meaning.
#59 revdjenk, this is at least the second time I’ve seen you mention that some people view natural disasters as being evil. Do you really know people who think like that? Have you been watching the Voodoo Weather Channel again?
Jesus was good looking, he had this coming. Old ladies and old men wanted to see him naked, bound and gay-looking on a cross. This is so they could have their way with him physically and mentally.
That’s what the bible doesn’t tell you. It also doesn’t tell you that Jesus has a humongous dong that didn’t serve him well either.
But what do I know, it’s not like I translated the Bible to what I thought.
He was ‘taxed to death’ by the democraps.
#59–revdjenk==do you know your adversaries do not go away if you “avert your consciousness?” No, we don’t.
That was an excellent review of Epicurus, whether it is accurate or not, just as the logic trap, it sets forth some excellent ideas.
Like god and the rock, the problem is the Christians have created a god they cannot comprehend. As you recognize in your logical brain, “somethings just don’t go together–or they contradict what was said.” Your rendition of Epicurus’s challenge shows god cannot be all knowing, all powerful, and all good all at the same time. “Somethings got to give.”
To say god is all good as he creates Hell, punishes non-believers, kills babies in the womb, creates defective mentalities, denies humans the knowledge of himself === etc=== there is overt/intentional/inconsistency to “believe” he is all good and it is a limitation in ourselves not to understand the nature of god. It must then become true that either god is not all good ((maybe just mostly good if you will??)) OR humans just don’t know what the quality of being good is. And if we don’t understand what goodness is, then we have no business thinking god is good.
Logic/reality is a bitch. At least the Tooth Fairy makes sense? Heh, heh.
Silly Hoomans.
Jesus was obviously crucified on a wooden “t”. How else can you possibly explain why vampires are afraid of and/or burned by wooden t’s?
-drjenkins
Just as there are different gods, different crosses, and different forms of torture devices, there are different vampires. Some are not bothered by wooden crosses, some only by “blessed” crosses, some only by silver crosses, some by no crosses at all. Thats just how the human imagination works: variety.
#40
What about the flood where your deity supposedly wiped out all life on the planet except for a drunk man and his boat? What about Sodom and Gomorrah? The list of times where deity has directly exterminated or ordered his people to exterminate life are legion. At the end of the day, you believe in a deity that is all powerful but for some inexplicable reason demands worship from us and punishes those that don’t.
Someone once aptly described the Christian deity as: “Fear me because I love you.”
#41
If that all gifts are by your deity’s design, then all bad things are also by his design. So, Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin are also his creation. You can’t have it both ways. If everything was created by your deity, then that means both good and bad.
#59
RE: Epicurius.
It should be noted that the very concept of free will cannot coexist with an omniscient being. For your deity to be omniscient there cannot exist a piece of information which it does not know. That means it knows the path and position of every atom in the universe from inception to termination. It also means it knows every decision with which you will be confronted, how you will decide it, what will happen afterward and so on. To us lowly humans required to abide by the laws of physics, it is actually impossible for omniscience to exist. There are somethings in the universe which cannot be known at the same time as other things (Heisenberg). Now, if you are going to claim that your deity is not omniscient, then you are also conceding that there are limits to its abilities.
RE: Hurricane’s
You have hit on a fundamental problem in the concept of an interfering deity. How do you determine what is NOT by design of your deity? You said Volcanoes that kills many people are not his fault. How do you know? To know one way or the other implies a means of detecting that which was done by your deity and more importantly, that which was not. How do we detect which is not your deity?
I heard he died in line at the DMV.
Wouldn’t any honest man have to admit that the christian god is unknowable—as in===UNKNOWABLE===FULL STOP.
There is a parlor game where you have the free choice to put your hand into a box the contents of which is unknown—UNKNOWN===FULL STOP.
You can believe the box has candy, but it can have a rattlesnake, or both.
Why would anyone play that game except on the blind faith that nobody would be cruel?
Now play the game and the person that goes before you do gets his hand chopped off.
Now how do you play? Yes, I know. Maybe having your hand chopped off “is a good thing” and you just don’t understand it.
And who is to say in this part of the universe the devil is not in charge?
Silly Hoomans.
“It just might be that God has something else going, which we cannot, will not, see or comprehend at our moment.”
Where is this god? 10 miles up? 100 miles up? In another galaxy? Where?
Ohhh…..you’re not allowed to know, is that correct?
Please inform us atheists so we can learn from your wisdom.
Mind you, skip the beliefs and put some real facts in your answer please.
#67
Where did I say volcanoes which killed lots of people were not God’s fault?
In #23 I mention volcanoes. I included them, along with some other natural disasters, in an argument about Epicurus’ stance. As I said about hurricanes, we may consider them evil, if they destroy property or life. Again, our naming something evil does make them so. It is our own perception! BTW, I have been through a hurricane (Floyd, 1999). It was not pleasant!
You also say that #41. that my argument means God must also make evil. I never said that or made that connection. I say that God makes good, God does not make evil. I know that .each of those I mention had been given good gifts, but generally mis-used them! But can an evil condition be good? I mentioned elsewhere, that the defeat of the Babylonian empire by the Persians (evil condition to the Babylonian) freed many captives to return to their own homelands (a good thing).
Please don’t turn my words, or make them up for your argument!
#70
So you should skip some facts and get some beliefs?! Why should I, alone, change? To make you comfortable?
I am not forcing anyone here to withhold their education, beliefs or judgments in order to hear me out. I think you are making assumptions about me, my education, beliefs and understandings just because I believe in God!
#69
I thought the box had a cat and a bird. When it was opened, no bird. The bird must have flown away? Now that would be someone disavowing reality, intent on seeing only positive results. Hoping against all hope.
But your parlor game…has anyone actually ever played it? or just made up, for worst case scenario? 🙂
#68
I think I have been in that line, too!
#71
In #23 I mention volcanoes. I included them, along with some other natural disasters, in an argument about Epicurus’ stance.
Again, how do we discern that which is NOT God? How we definitively ascertain that a given event is NOT due to your deity? How do you know that Hitler (who was Catholic by the way) wasn’t doing your deity’s work? As you mentioned, some good came from the Babylonian occupation just as some good came from Hitler.
You also say that #41. that my argument means God must also make evil. I never said that or made that connection
Then whence comes evil as Epicurus might ask? Epicurus, or whomever made the argument, is showing the fundamental impossibility of the deity described by the Christian texts. If your deity made everything, then it must have made evil. If your deity’s works were perverted for evil purposes and it is omniscient, then it was aware that this would happen. If it is omnipotent and did nothing to stop evil, then it is malevolent. If it could not stop evil, then it is not omnipotent.
There is just no getting around the logic problems created by an omniscient, omnipotent being especially one that interferes directly into the lives of humanity.
Thomas–the good rev and other thumpers respond by saying we human beings just don’t understand the level the god plays on. Our knowledge and perspectives both limited/non-god like cannot appreciate the balance of things god offers us with his love.
Whats your take on that rhetorical argument?
If there is a god, I doubt he/she/it/??? even knows we exist, and if he/she/it/??? does, I doubt he/she/it/??? cares one way or the other who we sleep with, what we eat, whose name we call out in times of crisis, and so on.
After all, the universe we can see from here is some thirteen billion plus years old and holds us, our roomy solar system, a galaxy with at least one hundred billion stars, and a hundred billion galaxies of all sizes and shapes, each with an average of another hundred billion stars. To think that whoever/whatever created this magnificent structure made it all for us and cares how we act is simply the height of arrogance.
#75
Our knowledge and perspectives both limited/non-god like cannot appreciate the balance of things god offers us with his love.
First we have to address the “How do we know what is NOT God?” question. If the answer is that everything is God and then follows with the above argument, then it also follows that all heinous deaths that have occurred have been part of the plan. E.g., that millions died in Nazi concentration camps or from Stalin was part of the plan. That the Inquisition tortured people for misguided reasons was part of the plan and on it goes. This fits into the Epicurus’ argument: “if your deity is omnipotent and unwilling to stop evil, it is malevolent”. However, I’d take it one step further and say that it is banally sadistic. This is a deity that is saying “Well, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet” in that death, torture and destruction are all a means to an end.
#77–Thomas==you are dodging the question posed. You, Me, the fencepost and George Carlin all know that what you mention is done with Gods Love. This I know for the bible tells me so. The fact that we see the Four Horsemen as soemthing other than a manifest expression of God’s love and mercy towards us is NOT a demonstration of any unknowable quality in god, it is merely a demonstration of our own limited comprehension, like ants are we to god.
Showing a lot of PRIDE to think you can outwit god with mere logic. Can’t imagine standing outside of space, time, logic? Well, thats your problem right there.
If stauros can mean a cross but can also mean a stake or a tree then choosing any one of its various meanings is an act of apostasy. We should keep gods original revealed word. “I was nailed to something vertical made out of wood.” Cross is so pleban.
Maybe its the same with “worship me.” Maybe he just said “Stand in wonder of me.” I wonder at the stupidity of man. Easy to widen the circle to include god.
#78
Now you are getting it!
“I wonder at the stupidity of man. Easy to widen the circle to include god.”
“Well, thats your problem right there.”
Yes, the universe is over 13 billion years old. Yes, created just for our sake…nah, for God’s sake, but we fit in nicely, don’t you know!
And what if we are the only living beings in all this? What? You think you are ordinary? Just one bit of life in a universe teeming with it? To the contrary, I think your arguments have all shown that you feel very special, and logical! And I agree, we are special.
Except for the timing issue, Genesis chapter 1 pretty much outlines the moments from the bursting of the singularity through the processes of earth-building and evolution.
It isn’t about the time, anyway. Chapter 1 of Genesis is really focusing on the relationship of creation with Creator. We are special, after all.
Well we know his hands and feet were pierced, in the old testament prophesied, this was way before crucifixions by the way.. sad these so called experts dont do their homework geez… Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
#79–REV!!!!===back to thumping the inerrant bible huh? You must be quite a hit with the kiddies. So flexible and cute. Yes, quite the bit of candy.
Isn’t it nice we get to think our individual thoughts? Who would ever take that from us, punish us for it?
I’d be anti anyone who took such freedom from us. I know you will post the same regardless of what you actually think you think.
Putting the “A” in anti, one hole at a time.
revdjenk, you failed to answer one of the most important questions that you or any other true believer must wrestle with. The question was posed by Thomas:
“Again, how do we discern that which is NOT God? How we definitively ascertain that a given event is NOT due to your deity?”
If you can’t answer that question, you may well find yourself fighting AGAINST the very deity you claim to worship, because your god’s work often seems so utterly evil to untrained human sensibilities. How do you recognize that which SEEMS evil, but isn’t really evil due to its divine origin? You wouldn’t want to find yourself inadvertently working to thwart God’s will, would you? There must be some definitive test you employ, and perhaps even teach to others.
#78
I did not dodge the question. You asked about arguments along the lines of “We are incapable of understanding God’s reasoning for [fill-in the blank]”. Again, that leads to the question of whether it is even possible to differentiate between that which is God from that which is not God. Said another way, is it even possible to discern God’s reasoning in any way and therefore can we differentiate that which is not God’s will? By stating we are incapable of understanding said deities designs, it presumes that we cannot differentiate between the two and down the rabbit hole we go that I stated in #77 (i.e., if we cannot differentiate between God/Not God and there is evil, then God must include evil and so on…) .
You, Me, the fencepost and George Carlin all know that what you mention is done with Gods Love
I like to encapsulate this as “Fear me because I love you.”
#79
Except for the timing issue, Genesis chapter 1 pretty much outlines the moments from the bursting of the singularity through the processes of earth-building and evolution.
This is wishful thinking. Aside from the fact that the Genesis stories (there are multiple) are not even original to the Hebrews, there is no hint of an evolutionary process in Genesis. Animals simply pop into existence and God then tasks Adam with naming them (in what language I wonder? Language is a comparatively recent invention). For example, God made “man” in his image. Which man? Homo sapiens have evolved from numerous other variants none of which have survived. Homo sapiens are merely the last, surviving variant and have only been on the Earth for a very short time (~100K years). If you start injecting large time frames in place of the “days” in which creation occurred, man would be on the last day, in the last microsecond of creation. Then there is the issue of the second Genesis story in which man is created before plants and animals. Trying overlay modern scientific truth onto the Genesis stories is folly.
#83–Thomas==I give you that the premise of my question to you is buried, but only a little bit. I am saying, as the good revjdenk says, that “everything is god.” The question of how then does evil exist arises within that context. You keep pushing that evil comes from a “non-god” source which AVOIDS THE QUESTION. I’m really just rephrasing the argument that evil in fact does not exist and is only a function of man’s limited conception of the love/morality/goodness/mercy that god has and shows us all the time.
Its like that serial killer in training burning the wings off flies with a microscope–the bug really has no ability to understand the psycho’s love, but love it is.
Rev declines to answer how we should still worship an entity we can not understand to this extreme degree. I was just throwing the same question out there for your consideration. Refusing the answer the question by posing your own is an evasion.
But, I also tire of the subject. There is no god really does clear up all the ambiguities.
#85
You keep pushing that evil comes from a “non-god” source which AVOIDS THE QUESTION
No, that is not what I’m saying. I’m saying that if “everything is God” then it follows that evil must ALSO comes from God. If “everything is God” but evil is perversion of God and God made everything, then again we must conclude that God made evil. If God did not make evil that contradicts “everything is God” and we are back to Epicurus and “whence comes evil”. If we cannot comprehend God’s designs then how can we conclude that evil isn’t by God’s design? The “incapable of comprehending” argument means we cannot differentiate God from Non-God and if that is the case, the odds are equal that everything, including evil, is God or nothing, including good, is God.
Again, I’m not evading the question. I’m showing that the entire premise is logically flawed.
Not to beat a dead horse, but Thomas==you ain’t getting it. Some progress, still falling short. I’ll rephrase, rather than repeat which you can do yourself if interested by rereading.
Thomas: can god, the author of all things be all good when we humans see so much avoidable evil in the world? You and I think not. The bible thumpers and my question to you is: do we mere humans even understand what good/evil is when the context is god’s love for us given our eventual death, resurrection and the ever after?
NOT THE SAME QUESTION, but along the same lines, is: Does god stand outside of logic and therefore is unknowable.
I’ll check back.
I have actually answered your question which in short terms is that no matter which tack you use, it creates a logical inconsistency.
> can god, the author of all things be
> all good when we humans see so
> much avoidable evil in the world?
Logically, he cannot be both: if God made everything, by definition he also made evil. If he did not make evil, then he could not have made everything.
Let’s look at the “his designs are unknowable” argument for a moment. Can we differentiate that which is and is not God? If not (because his intention is unknowable), then combined with the premise that God is all good, it means we cannot differentiate good from evil.
Suppose the argument is that God created everything but man perverted his creation into evil. Now, we need to ask whether God is omniscient. If he is, then he knew that evil would be created. If fact, we can go further and say that creating something that you know for a fact will be used for evil and doing nothing to stop it when you supposedly have the ability is evil itself (or malevolent as Epicurus would say). If we return the premise that God is all good, we are again back to conclusion that man cannot create evil since it would imply that God created evil and that means there is no evil only that which do not understand but clearly must be good.
In the end, any argument made where God is all something has gaping holes. Created everything? He created evil. All knowing? He knew evil would be created. All powerful? He either let evil be created, didn’t care, isn’t all powerful or there is no evil. All good? Whence comes evil and back to the beginning we go…