Makes you wonder what else was translated or interpreted incorrectly.
The crucifix is the defining symbol of Christianity, a constant reminder to the faithful of the sacrifice and suffering endured by Jesus Christ for humanity. But an extensive study of ancient texts by a Swedish pastor and academic has revealed that Jesus may not have died on a cross, but instead been put to death on another gruesome execution device.
Gunnar Samuelsson — a theologian at the University of Gothenburg and author of a 400-page thesis on crucifixion in antiquity — doesn’t doubt that Jesus died on Calvary hill. But he argues that the New Testament is in fact far more ambiguous about the exact method of the Messiah’s execution than many Christians are aware.
“When the Gospels refer to the death of Jesus, they just say that he was forced to carry a “stauros” out to Calvary,” he told AOL News. Many scholars have interpreted that ancient Greek noun as meaning “cross,” and the verb derived from it, “anastauroun,” as implying crucifixion. But during his three-and-a-half-year study of texts from around 800 BC to the end of the first century AD, Samuelsson realized the words had more than one defined meaning.
#28 sargasso. Nope. Graham Chapman portrayed Brian. Jesus of Nazareth was quite clearly a different character in the movie. I don’t remember if he (He?) was actually depicted in the movie, but he (He?) was referred to.
#28
Actually, no, Chapman was not playing Jesus, as his character in “Life of Brian” states over and over. I commend this movie to you, since it appears you really missed the point; that we humans look for leadership in whatever form or forum and that we are easily distracted from following true leadership.
(This was a sub-text in “Gump,” in the running across America bit.)
As opposed to finding true self actualization and not needing leadership true, false, or otherwise.
Isn’t leadership most often if not always forced on the followers? At least when not following is punished?
I think so. aka slavery.
But Thor, the true obviously real god, not the fake new-age Jesus, never died and is still alive.
My magical make believe invisible god can beat up your magical make believe invisible god!
bobbo, we think with words, and flower with ideas…
hee hee, which makes you a blooming idiot hee hee
kidding aside…””and further more” as god knew billions of years before the universe ever formed exactly what thoughts I would have every instant of my life, and HE keeps choosing not to make himself known to me…”
You have heard the joke about the flood and the man on his house roof who refuses a boat and then a helicopter ride to safety, because he knew God would save him…only to drown in the rising waters. Meeting God, he asks why God didn’t save him, and God said, “But I sent a boat and a helicopter!”
comic book enough for you?!
# 19 jim said,”…if anyone actually tried to read the bible, they could see the original word…”
Excuse me, Jimbo. You think the bible was originally published in plain ole English? Let’s see. the original writings were mostly in Aramaic then trnaslated to Greek and then to how many other languages? Not to mention that King James had his own interpretation and Pope Whoever and…
Well, the point is the bible you suggest people read to find the original word is a hopeless task. The bible is more a game of telephone than an historical record.
#31
…so leadership, for you, leads to slavery? and you can only trust yourself?
Wow!
#34
If you are referring to the parlor game, telephone, where a sentence is passed down a line from person to person to be revealed as a completely different saying at the end, well…
Until the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls in ~1946 the oldest extant version of the Hebrew part of the Bible (referred to as the Old Testament) was handwritten in ~900AD. The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated to first Century BC. In those ~1,000 years, there were few differences between these two copies. One will find this in most of the Biblical writings in the Hebrew or Greek. (The only Aramaic is in the book of Daniel, BTW.) The errors are generally in grammar (tense of verb not matching noun), spelling or punctuation. (Although the famous numbered name in Revelation is either 666, 612 or 619!) None of the errors change dogma or doctrine.
#33
Yes, I’ve heard that joke. However, the real punchline should be theman saying to God, “If those were your signs why didn’t you make abundantly evident that it was YOU and only YOU that sent those devices to save me rather than from some other explanation? Why the mystery with respect to your desire and designs?” For someone that is supposedly all knowing, his/her/its communication skills are seriously lacking.
#35
“Leadership” that demands worship and punishes opposing points of view (and the innocent btw) is tyranny. “Leadership” that creates beings knowing exactly what mistakes they will make and then punishes them for it is sadism. “Leadership” that relies on word of mouth and vague writing to convey their message is incompetence.
It’s official. Dvork.org will bite on any blog post to get a flame war started. No ancient text has undergone scholarly scrutiny like the Bible has. Every single word has been dissected, compared, analyzed against other ancient greek/hebrew/aramaic texts… and this yahoo thinks he’s figured it out from his own reading? He’s an idiot. Do some homework Uncle Dave. Even a cursory scholarly search would have unearthed decent linguistic analysis of the word in question… and crucifixion in general. Sigh.
#37
I agree! Leadership which “demands worship and punishes opposing points of view and the innocent”
IS tyranny. There are plenty of examples of the use and abuse of religious doctrine to this end in all of human history. And, of course, you don’t need a religious doctrine to do such a thing, either, as Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot (Cambodia), Idi Amin (Uganda) have well shown in our history, too!
Although there are passages in the Bible where God calls on the complete killing of a people (and animals) by the Israelites (1 Samuel 15:3) one also finds Jesus being sought after by the rich young ruler. The young man eventually comes to a conclusion that he cannot give up his wealth (his god) to attain true wealth and walks away. Jesus doesn’t chase after him with tracts, or strong words or even a sword. The rich young ruler is allowed to go…
#37
I was taught early that we are all (everyone) given/acquire strengths to use. So, a doctor’s knowledge, or a Coast Guard pilot’s skills are part of God’s work, too. The people with the gifts do not necessarily need to be believers, just as the Persian King overwhelmed (without a battle!) the Babylonians, which led to the release of the Jews to return home.
I was also taught that there are people who are given strengths, but who use and abuse those gifts not for good, but for evil.
We have a local woman out for exercise, was struck by a drunk driver. Drinking alcohol in moderation is a biblical precept (1 Timothy 5:23) but this driver has abused the gift, and now a woman suffers terrible injuries and surgery. Did God ordain this horrible accident? No, but abuse of gifts has led to the evil condition.
those should be for #38 Thomas…whoops
How many of you would actually care if the frame you were nailed to and left to die on was a pole, shaped like a capital T, a lower case t, or an X?
My guess is that after an hour or so you couldn’t care less if you ever did. Grow up and get over it. This guy is only arguing about the shape of the frame.
The language in which the description of the crucifixion took place is ambiguous in a few words. So is English.
The exact design of the frame is ambiguous and anybody that wanted to check Roman practices knew it long ago. The exact manner of nailing a person to the cross is in this case a little ambiguous as well because the text uses a word that best translates as forearm. They may have nailed him through the wrists, or use chips of wood with a nail driven through them to help secure the body and gone through the hand or even put the hand on the back of the cross piece and nailed it their to help prevent him tearing free.
They seem to have driven nails through the heel bones into the main wooden shaft with one foot on each side of the shaft to let the person support their weight on the nails and thus take longer to die. In the only actual preserved heel bone with nail they drove the nail through a large olive wood chip then through the bone.
No matter how you slice it this is one seriously gruesome way to die. A strong man in good condition might take days to die.
revdjenk–there are so many version of the one true word it assumes away too much to be very specific, but in general: if one does not believe in god and does only good works his whole life then on death doesn’t one eventually land in hell/oblivion/the absence of god or whatever for eternity?
That sounds like punishment for not accepting the leadership of god to me. Such a god as that is not worthy of being worshipped, leading me to be an anti-theist.
OTOH–while god could exist, the god of the bible certainly can not, see Epicurus. A god that is unknowable===FULL STOP, is possible. A god that is all good and who hides himself away and judges people for eternity? No.
But then I’ve heard when you die its actually your soul not “you” that meets St Peter (more human based comic books) or Jesus/god/Holy Ghost. I have no idea who/what my soul is but if god is all knowing/good/merciful and if my contemplation of god changes in his presence ((even though it did not for the angels who rebelled==imagine that? Why would any angel made by god rebel?????)) then I’m gonna just have to rely on that because the brains god gave me says he doesn’t exist.
Its really gibberish of a really inane sort. I hope my gibberish low level light stays off for at least a few years now.
It very likely was a cross. Because it’s a very showy from of execution. And the Romans liked showing off executions to the masses, in order to keep them in fear of disobeying authority. And Jesus messed with both Roman and Jewish authorities. So naturally, they hanged him up for display and a slow death.
Today’s execution methods are more quick, and humane. But still done for the same reason. The prisoners certainly aren’t going to “learn” anything from being killed. It’s for the living to learn from, and fear the consequence of committing a serious offense.
The problem is, most who commit murder are mental defectives. And this form of punishment is lost on them. If they value life so little, that they easily take it. Then how are they going to value the loss of their own life?
No, capital punishment is really a propaganda tool to keep the rest of us in line. Because we know what our government is capable of, if it gets pissed off enough at us. And they don’t need to have a formal execution. They’ll just send a squad of trigger happy cops our way. I’ll bet more people have been gunned down in public by police, than shot, hung, gassed, or electrocuted in some prison.
And as someone has probably already pointed out. It’s not important how Jesus died. But what he died for. Just as these days, we don’t ask how or why our soldiers died? We ask what they die for? So why can’t Jesus’ death be treated as just as meaningful as theirs? Or has the Military replaced religion, as the only answer to all of life’s problems?
I probably shouldn’t mention this, but God revealed to me in a dream about 40 years ago that his son’s crucifixion wasn’t really as painful as it was purported to be. Let’s just say that the “Miracle of the Internal Morphine Drip” would not have looked good if it had been included with the rest of the Holy Scriptures, so it was suppressed by divine ordination.
#37 revdjenk – It’s my understanding that the Red Sea Scrolls and other similar finds also include some stories that never made it into the bible. And the scrolls are not all from 90 AD – most were written well before the christian era. Do the scrolls relate well to the torah and the rest of the Hebrew bible? Well, sure. Why wouldn’t they? The leading theory is they were written by Jewish hermits (the Essenes?). And since there were very few written works, due to the labor intensive and costly method of copying manuscripts (manu script = hand writing), there was little opportunity for the fables to evolve. Of course, none of this has much to do with the method of killing Jesus.
When I was in school, I had a friend who was a Catholic priest in the Order of the Holy Ghost. He was also a shrink. He once suggested to me that the cross was a symbol that came into use much later and that the more probably method of execution was to tie (or nail) the body to a pole or a tree with the hands drawn up overhead. The feet might be secured but were often left dangling. This posture makes breathing more difficult and cause great pain. I don’t know his authority for these assertions: I simply relate what a religiously trained man told me. (BTW, he was a close to an atheist priest as ever I’ve met!)
Last – ask any doctor, They will tell you a man could not bear his own weight on a spike driven through the palm. The spike would quickly rip through the hand. That’s why the alternative suggestion of putting the nails through the wrists where the tissues are much stronger. Likely if nails were used, it was to keep the hands in place and not allow the victim to pull their hands out through the ropes that suspended them.
Since most of the writers of the Bible never met the man, Jesus. And many of the stories of the bible had been written centuries before about other previous gods, let just say the Bible is full of good stories. If your belief in them, makes you a kinder person, I am happy.
But he DID die, right?
To be Honest, it is not important that he died on a cross, the thing is he died he was perfect and unlike the rest of man kind he didn’t deserve to.
But the bible also describes him as having nails in his hands and feet, if it is not crucifixion then what is it
Evidently–getting nailed to a tree.
#49 – Faxon : Nope. Moved to Cairo and then off to France where he and Mary Mag had a bunch of kids. Have you checked YOUR genealogy?
#52 Maricopa: I have not heard that they moved to Cairo after the “crucifixion” though I’ve heard the theory about France. What might interest you more, since you brought up Egypt, is the the theory that Jesus is only a retelling of the life of Horus. Give it a Google. You might find it interesting. Personally? I’ve lived in France and in Egypt. All things considered, if I survived the torture and crux, I’d prefer to live in France. Thanks for everything, Dad.
““Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
– Epicurus”
NOT Epicurus. Nothing can corroborate he stated that.
Unsourced quotes only highlight how incorrect people are in trying to win a debate.
Cursor_
Well Cursor—so wrong on every level.
1. The quote is sourced–to Epicurus.
2. The debate is NOT about who crafted the logic trap.
3. The debate/correctness/incorrectness IS about the logic of the logic trap.
To further your point, the religious beyond reason types say that God stands outside the logic of the logic trap. To them and to you I say, that only proves the conclusiveness of the logic trap.
I will mark that as a win—for logic.
Gee, Cursor. I guess you didn’t see my previous note to you in another thread. Bobbo’s quote stands on it’s logic no matter by whom or when it was first uttered.
I understand there is some debate as to whether it was actually said by ole Epi but, if you do a quick search on the quote in Google Books, you can find at least 20 authors who seem to believe the evidence is that Epi is guilty as charged.
In any case, Epicurus’s quotes would be some 2300 years old. It’s a little difficult to seek him out or even his writings for specific guidance. As I recall, there are none of his writings that survive to this day. I believe the Vatican library has the text of a couple of his letters but even those are only reported by someone else. No one knows what he did or did not teach. Bobbo’s quote is very much in the spirit of Epicurus’s logic and, as I said, even if he didn’t say it, it stands on it’s own.
So, why don’t you find a legitimate reason to argue with Bobbo and bury this bone. Ain’t no dog interested in it. Ole Epi considered his school to be a group of friends so why don’t you two shake hands and come out fighting? All friendly like.
Thanks Animby–why do so many want to argue the source rather than what was said? Silly Hoomans? And Cursor is one of the brighter bulbs.
Ok. Here is the Logic Trap of God’s True Nature as created by bobbo in the next 5 minutes on this here blog:
“If god is all powerful, how come he allows LIEbertards to spout their self centered evil nonsense?
Since god allows LIEbertards to be born, he must not care about the evil they do.
Or does god really, really, really care about us at all?
AND btw–can god create a rock so heavy he can’t lift it?
Given the above carefully crafted hypotenuses, seems to me if he was in charge of the Afghanistan War, that Obama would fire him.”
Now Cursor, which version do you think is better for debate? The vaguely objected to Epicurus or the fully sourced bobbo?
You have free will and an agile mind. You choose.
There isn’t actually much contemporary evidence of any individual’s existence during the first century, other than the most powerful and famous. In the case of Jesus, we have the historian Josephus mentioning him by name; Tacitus, too, mentions him as the leader of a cult, but not by name. That’s not too shabby.
Epicurus seemed to be driven in his life to prove that determinism (fatalism?) was false. He injected the idea of random events, caused and uncaused, which changed the paths of atoms, stones, people.
In his day, the gods were seen as directing people’s lives in such a way that anyone’s path in life was determined. If he proved the false nature of determinism, then, of course, gods wouldn’t have this power, or even exist.
If I can make a choice, if something out-of-the-ordinary can happen, then this cause and effect is broken. (or more exactly to Epicurus’ thinking, a cause may cause an effect, but the effect can be deflected, altered.)
Of course, Epicurus’ argument depended (was determined?!) on the idea that the gods’ natures were limited to one direction, one intended operation, too! “I am mad at this human, POW…so there!”
What? Only humans can act on a whim? Change the mind? Choose how, when, why to act, or not?!
If someone who is able to, does not go to the aid of a drowning person, some might judge them as cruel, or selfish, or chicken. But they might not act, not because of their inability or unwillingness, but because of some other reason that goes beyond the scope of that moment.
Hurricanes are destructive forces which can destroy homes and trees, wipe away beaches and life. Are they evil? They are mere heat pumps, pushing the heat of the tropics into the upper atmosphere to be swept away by the jet stream into cooler climes. We call them evil for the destructiveness to us!
It just might be that God has something else going, which we cannot, will not, see or comprehend at our moment.