Makes you wonder what else was translated or interpreted incorrectly.
The crucifix is the defining symbol of Christianity, a constant reminder to the faithful of the sacrifice and suffering endured by Jesus Christ for humanity. But an extensive study of ancient texts by a Swedish pastor and academic has revealed that Jesus may not have died on a cross, but instead been put to death on another gruesome execution device.
Gunnar Samuelsson — a theologian at the University of Gothenburg and author of a 400-page thesis on crucifixion in antiquity — doesn’t doubt that Jesus died on Calvary hill. But he argues that the New Testament is in fact far more ambiguous about the exact method of the Messiah’s execution than many Christians are aware.
“When the Gospels refer to the death of Jesus, they just say that he was forced to carry a “stauros” out to Calvary,” he told AOL News. Many scholars have interpreted that ancient Greek noun as meaning “cross,” and the verb derived from it, “anastauroun,” as implying crucifixion. But during his three-and-a-half-year study of texts from around 800 BC to the end of the first century AD, Samuelsson realized the words had more than one defined meaning.
Let’s flip this around for a minute.
Ok, for the sake of argument, let’s follow his thesis and derive that Jesus may not have been crucified on a cross, but on some other instrument. That the exact interpretation of the ancient texts leaves that the method of crucifixion may of been left to the legionnaires.
So, what we take out of this is:
There is significant evidence that:
A) There was a Jesus, and
B) He was executed by Romans.
Show me a birth certificate.
#1 – Ah_Yea:
What I derive is: 1) Someone wrote that there was a Jesus and 2) someone wrote that he was executed by Romans.
The cost of replacing the cross as the worshiped torture device would be too high for the church.
On the other hand, selling an optional torture device might be good business. Church needs to do a business case.
Atheists all over are saying “See, something we don’t believe in, didn’t happen the way we don’t believe it did.”
I as un-religious as they come, but I don’t believe this author.
Why would the Romans use a less public method of execution? The purpose of execution on a cross was to send a message to the living. Having someone hanging there for all to see, slowing and painfully dieing on a cross. Frankly, it just doesn’t get any better than that.
It just doesn’t make any logical sense, not the the bible makes any either.
Oh boy, another misleading headline. You guys are on a roll!
If you read the article, all he is saying is that it may have not quite looked exactly a cross, but it could have been a spiked pole or a tree truck. Whatever it looked like, he was nailed to at and died on on in in a crucifixion manner.
Reading on:
“That revelation stands in stark contrast to claims that appear in many books on the historical Jesus, as well as more general surveys of life under Roman rule, which state that prisoners were routinely nailed to crosses.”
So in summary, some guy studying the root words of the text without considering historical/cultural context says the text does not actually describe in detail that the thing he was nailed to looked like a ‘t’. As if that even matters. Nothing to see here, move along….
If this is true, it would merely reinforce the notion that the many true believers who have claimed to see holy visions of Jesus on the cross are being influenced by the Bible, rather than experiencing anything of divine origin. Much of what true believers feel in their connection to their deity is the product of their own human suggestibility.
Jesus carries the cross of fiction, and survives by the soul of superstition. He is whipped by sound judgment every day and He will finally die for us when we realize that we alone are responsible for good and evil, and that Heaven is our life, here on Earth. ©JimR
It is the long standing belief of Jehovah’s Witnesses that Jesus died on a “torture stake”, a simple upright piece of wood, no crosspiece.
#6 “Why would the Romans use a less public method of execution?”
Because if we are to take the Bible as a source of what this Jesus character did, he wasn’t bad enough a criminal to deserve that kind of sentencing. Crucifixion was something you got for being a pirate or an enemy of the state (and considering how important sea travel and transport was to keep the empire going, those two are petty much the same thing) — not for annoying a bunch of Jewish religious scholars.
Or, conversely, if he was crucified, then there are some… extracurricular activities… that the Bible leaves out because it doesn’t quite gel with the image of Jesus as a kind of a nice guy 😛
If he had only read a bit further in the gospels, specifically passages in John chapter 20…
I refer to doubting Thomas, who wouldn’t believe it was actually Jesus, until he had put his hand into the wound in the side of Jesus (where he was pierced by the soldier’s spear) and examined the nail holes in the hands of Jesus.
This suggests he was nailed, and so likely to an beam perpendicular to a vertical pole… hence the cross.
Any other interpretation of these passages requires some explanation.
I refer to:
John 20:25 and John 20:27
So the other disciples told him, ‘We have seen the Lord.’ But he said to them, ‘Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.’
and
Then he said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.’
Wow, the antitheist are rampant on this blog. What I don’t understand is why they have the fervor of an evangelical at a camp meeting.
Jesus is nailed to the cross and his disciples are gathered around his feet, weeping and wailing. After a while Jesus summons the strength to speak.
“Paul!”, Jesus speaks. “Come here.”
“Yes my lord.”, answers Paul. “What words do you have for me?”
“Paul.”, utters Jesus again. “Come closer”
Paul stands up and walks up to the cross. “Yes my Lord. What is it you want from me?”
“Paul.”, says Jesus once again. “Come closer”
Paul stands tippy toe on a rock, getting as close to Jesus as he can. “Yes Jesus. I am here. What is it you seek?”
“Paul.”, says Jesus. “I can see your house from here.”
[Comment deleted – Violation of Posting Guidelines. – ed.]
Mextli, I think that many, if not most, anti-theists operate on the premise that there couldn’t possibly be anything more wonderful than they are.
So much hate here from the true believers.
Sad. Where is the love?
Ha, ha.
Words. Old words no longer used. Old ideas no longer needed. Tree, torture pole, crucifix. I don’t see the difference. The son of god, who was also god, who is eternal outside of time, was immaculately conceived, born, died, resurrected to experience/redeem human being for being the way he made them all within the context of already knowing/causing everything.
Tree, torture pole, crucifix==really doesn’t make a difference.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
– Epicurus
#6
No one is saying that they did not put a person to death and on public display. What is being disputed is that he was specifically put on a pole with a cross beam.
#7
I disagree. The Church has specifically built its symbolism on the basis that a man named Jesus existed, did the things claimed in the Bible and was nailed to something that resembles a capital “T”. All of Christian symbolism is based on this. If Jesus was in fact impaled on a spike, it would be yet another hole in the Church’s claim about the event’s in question.
#12
refer to doubting Thomas, who wouldn’t believe it was actually Jesus, until he had put his hand into the wound in the side of Jesus (where he was pierced by the soldier’s spear) and examined the nail holes in the hands of Jesus.
Beyond the fact that this story has no other source to substantiate it, Jesus could have just as easily been nailed to single vertical pole or on a spike and had a similar wounds.
I was always under the impression that Spartacus and the slaves that revolted were crucified and posted along the Appian Way. If crucifixion was a rare form of execution, one would think that they would have been executed differently especially when you consider the sheet number of people involved and the expense of having two large pieces of wood for each person executed.
Thomas–is christiandom based on belief in god or on belief in the bible?
Belief is all that is required. In what doesn’t matter. Details don’t matter.
Just keep chanting that whenever reality impinges. Rinse. Repeat.
this is news? you could look up the translation on wiki for a long time… and if anyone actually tried to read the bible, they could see the original word…
i’m surprised that people who say they’re christian didn’t know this already… try reading the bible and doing a little research of the original text, instead of having people lie to you about it…
#10 is correct, Jehovah’s witnesses have long held the belief that Jesus did not die on a cross (a pagan symbol introduced in later centuries by the emperors of rome) but on an upright stake or tree trunk.
#18
Thomas–is christiandom based on belief in god or on belief in the bible?
Belief is all that is required. In what doesn’t matter. Details don’t matter.
If you are addressing me, the answer is “Both”. The Christian belief system founded on belief of the stories in the Bible. In order to be Christian, you must believe that God exists, had a human son named Jesus that was sacrificed for the sins of man as described in the Bible. Without the stories depicted in the Bible, there is no Christianity. So, some details matter. Now, does it matter whether Jesus was executed by being impaled on a spike instead of being crucified on a cross? As always, the answer is “it depends on who you ask.” To a fundamentalist, it absolutely matters because the Bible is infallible (Alfred1 anyone?). To a casual Christian, maybe not. However, it is clear that the whole of Christianity accepts that this is the case based on its chosen symbolism and that proof of such a glaring mistake would not help the Church win new converts (which is a good thing).
@Bobbo…
God allowing evil does not make God less than good. The Biblical God (and even the Greek gods) wanted people to honor them (just with different reactions to those who dis/honor them.) The Biblical God does not make us to be, or expect us to be, robots, and you are an example that! If humans were good because they were compelled, or if some supernatural occurrence forced them what would that prove? We are free to choose; belief in God or not, being good or not. Two points: God can handle whatever choices we make. Our choices do not make God good or bad. Epicurus is wrong in saying that because evil exists, God is either enjoying it, ineffectual or incompetent. Did Epicurus expect a God to change brain cells to prevent even the evil intention? a God to stop the tidal wave, the earthquake, the volcano, the hurricane? (I guess then that would not be “supernatural” but very ordinary.)
God seeks change and/or that evil can be changed to good. Oh, and the wave, hurricane and other natural “disasters” are only seen as evil from our perspective. The hurricane, for example, is a balancing act, transferring the heated tropical air into the higher latitudes. It is only evil when it floods our home.
Actually I just like making comments like that because it gets the bible thumpers going.
#21–Thomas==ok, I failed to include your post number when directly addressing YOU. I think the reference to “doubting Thomas” is clear enough to be a separate person. Ironically, why do you doubt I was addressing YOU! Ha, ha. So, fundamentalism really does go to belief in “the” bible with many variations thereon. How in the world anyone could be a bible believing fundamentalist and not go back to the original greek/jew/whatever language is beyond me. If I believed in god, I certainly would, but even the greek would be derivative. Must be tough to be a fundamentalist.
#22–revdejenk==yes, we have free will so god can punish us for not believing in him even though he made everything and KNEW a billion years ago exactly how we would grow up believing. Its still “our” fault.
If words/ideas/concepts/logic have any meaning at all, then god is not anything we can conceive us. Outside of time, logic, good, and evil. Like ants contemplating us are we to god only a billion billion times less because that is how great god is.
The greek gods were lesser entities. They got mad and made mistakes. Very powerful, but not all powerful. More human in their construct. Until you get to arch-angels and all those hosts. Those movies with Christopher Walken are really instructive that way. What if the bible god really did exist??? Holy Crap!!
No rev==I believe ((arghh!)) if god is not bound by the logic Epicurus states, then he truly is unknowable to the degree that any worship of him is meaningless.
Imagine the universe without a god. Wouldn’t it behave just as we experience?
Now, imagine a universe with the god of the bible. Holy Crap!! Things would be quite different.
Knock, knock?
There is no god. Have a great day.
revdejenk==”and further more” as god knew billions of years before the universe ever formed exactly what thoughts I would have every instant of my life, and HE keeps choosing not to make himself known to me, how does he not share “some” part of the responsibility for me not believing in him given how he intentionally hides himself all the time?
If I were the devil, I’ld really be pissed off==just like the movies when the fallen angels ((who actually know god)) come to earth and interfere in all the ways they do.
Not enough comic book for you?
Maybe right is right? Ha, ha. Yea, just maybe.
I’m an atheist, and I don’t believe Jesus Christ existed at all, or if anything his story was altered to fit common allegorical myths.
Jesus’ story shares many of the same recurring themes that are attributed to other deity stories. One of these themes is death by crucifixion.
The crucifixion was symbolic of the ‘death’ of the sun when it appeared in the sky with the Southern Crux constellation during the time of the Winter Solstice on the 22nd of December.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw#t=7m58s
The crucifixion is how he supposedly died, and I think it’s very clear that is the case. I’m not sure what this theologian’s angle is, but he might be trying to rewrite history. The wealth of information available on the Internet makes it very easy for someone to find out for themselves that Jesus was just another carbon-copy solar deity.
http://truthbeknown.com/sunsofgod.htm
A very good book to read on the subject.
A very funny movie and a great photo of Graham Chapman playing Jesus. Who incidentally was a white anglo saxon protestant out of the closet practising gay englishman.