amodedoma says:

#123 Bobbo

I respect your right to your opinion. Respect mine, I come here to share a little and I think I do it respectfully. If you don’t like my comments feel free to ignore them.

Benjamin says:

#119 amodedoma said, “What weapons?”

Weapons Found on the Flotilla Ship Mavi Marmara Used By “Hammas Peace Activists” http://youtube.com/watch?v=9kr-F9M54eo

Weaponry Overview and Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Preparing Weaponry http://youtube.com/watch?v=16sANhzjcC0&feature=related

Those weapons for starters.

#113 Comacho said, “Mark Twain was not working for the US Geological Survey, was he?”

He reported what he observed. You are an idiot Comacho. There is no evidence that Mark Twain had a dog in the flight between the Israelis and Palestinians.

#123 bobbo said, “Wouldn’t some rather than none of the relief supplies getting thru be better and worthwhile?”

Only if what does get passed along can be used to kill Jews. The only stuff Israel allows through is stuff that can’t be used to kill Jews.

#120 Camacho said,

“Whether they are part of the Illuminati I don’t know. Ask them.

You are not making any points other than picking stuff out of some “book of standard responses.””

The Illuminati? Really? What planet are you posting from? The “book of standard responses” is what most of us call common sense. You are responding from the “book of I don’t have a clue.”

Benjamin says:

#125 bobbo, I want to sit down for a beer with you. We disagree so much, but on this issue you are spot on.

MikeN says:

Meeting today in Geneva, the UN Human Rights Council heard the following statement from the Syrian representative, First Secretary Rania Al Rifaiy: “Israel…is a state that is built on hatred…Let me quote a song that a group of children on a school bus in Israel sing merrily as they go to school and I quote ‘With my teeth I will rip your flesh. With my mouth I will suck your blood.'”

bobbo, we think with words, and flower with ideas. says:

Well Benjamin, thank you. I hope the door doesn’t hit amodedoma in the vagina on her way out. Argues just like my wife. All emotions and no facts.

I actually enjoy a heartfelt disagreement based on facts. Someone if not both should learn something from the exchange? Don’t like hurting anyone’s feelings though although when you lead with your chin, a knockout will be coming your way.

Lets see, – – – – yes, on this issue we are agreeing. I sense you have a “pro-Israel” position for some way. I hope that doesn’t bias your analysis and if you are pro-Israel you might check yourself as you formulate your positions and argument. Failure to do so will lead you to eventually become overinvested emotionally as has amodedoma ((funny since I think I ragged him about religion much more harshly and he didn’t flinch)) or beocme completely unhinged as has commanche.

But yes, having a beer with good conversation is always a pleasure. Think of good conversation the next beer you hoist. Sante!

Ah_Yea says:

I second Benjamin’s sentiments. I always enjoy debating bobbo and reading his comments, time permitting.

bobbo, we think with words, and flower with ideas. says:

Time permitting? I’ll save you the bother: I’m never posting here again!!!!!!! That should loosen up your time.

Nothing but insults when I’m so pure. Disgusting really.

Actually, I’ve given both of you grounds to be as upset as you wish to be–a flip on the famous statement by Lincoln. Maybe amodedoma is pulliing a Helen Thomas and wanted to quit anyway? Funny he would choose the same stupid positioning.

Heh, heh.

Ah_Yea says:

#136, bobbo

LOL!!!

bobbo, Catch 22, best book in the world says:

For me, its hard to imagine an “invading military force” that “attacks” an innocent flotilla of humanitarian aid workers would allow themselves to be beaten by metal poles and thrown off a deck of a ship?

The military guy in charge of that lawful boarding should be fired for exposing his troops that way. It is sheer idiocy to confuse a adversarial non-compliant life threatening agressor with a peaceful non-violent humanitarian aid worker.

But that is what “world leaders” as well as the Israeli military tend to do.

greensaab says:

If Palestine laid down their weapons there would be no war. If Israel laid down their weapons there would be no Israel.

brianoflondon says:

#79 Bobbo – sorry for the long delay. I’m a regular guy struggling to make a crust in Israel.

Short answer to your direct question: “Is too much of Israeli’s current problems/continuing conflict actually caused by itself in being too moral with its “death to Israel” enemies?”

Yes.

Medium answer:

Hell Yes, and in Arabic its almost never Death to Israel, it’s Death to the Jews.

Longer answer:

Early Zionism (and I’m talking late 1800’s Chaim Weitzmann and a few other major players) was an almost entirely secular movement. From the time this got under way there are many good, cross verified sources that give the population of the Ottoman Turkish ruled area (it didn’t even have a proper name back then) as almost nothing. Literally a few tens of thousands and that includes pretty much the whole of modern Jordan and probably bits of Syria too.

After a number of waves of immigration of basically destitute Jews (from eastern Europe and Russia) it started to be apparaent that the Jews were actually making something of the place. Commerce, proper agriculture (beyond subsistence farming) and even fledgling manufacturing were starting to happen.

Most importantly there was a danger that the once completely dhimmified indigenous Jews would be swamped with new Ashkenazi Jews who didn’t know the rules of how to live under Muslim “protection”. The local Jews (Sephardic) had lived quietly under Muslim rule for a 1000 years, enduring periods of bearable tolerance, repressions, and inevitable pogroms but generally paying their Jizya tax (imposed by the Muslim rulers on non-Muslims only). In fact Jews had lived continuously across much of wider North Africa, Arabia and Persia in this way (but not in the Arabian peninsula owing to a direct edict from the Koran and Hadiths).*(footnote)

If that happened, the whole dhimmi system was likely to break and this was realised by a small subset of the local Muslim leaders. Once Ottoman ruled ended (as a result of the Turks joining the loosing side in WWI and the British taking the Mandate for Trans Jordan) the problem became acute. For Islam to loose territory is not in Muhammad’s play book. Spain is still a major boil on their conscience.

At this point the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem appears to kick off the festivities and launched a violent uprising largely targeting the Jews. As ever the British reacted in time honored fashion and appeased. They did all they could to limit Jewish access in order to maintain Arab quiet. I’ve seen previously Top Secret documents (now on display at the bottom of a locked filling cabient with a sign on the door saying “beware of the leopard” at the British records office in Kew) where the local British commanders in the Levant were begging to be allowed to arrest the Mufti (and denied) just before he fled the area disguised as a woman (which is a trick taken straight from one of the stories surrounding the life of Muhammad).

Now back to my first point about early Zionism being secular. This is the big blind spot. People consistently mis-judge others by assuming the other is like them. So if you’re a secular Jew and you see Muslim Arabs around you who aren’t particularly fervent (but who can be whipped up in a frenzy in a moment), you think that something other than religion drives them. But always at the root was the Islamic doctrine of Jihad which doesn’t know how to retreat, can’t give back, can’t surrender and never apologizes for it’s millennia of conquest and enslavement of others. But if faith doesn’t drive you, how do you appreciate how important the faith of others is to their actions?

So basically the problems stem from way before 1939. The die was cast when somebody allowed the very worst Islamic leadership possible to persist in incitement of a basically ambivalent population to murder and pillage drawing on the roots in the Islamic texts that make this so easy to do. It’s not different from allowing Hamas to exist today. Hamas took Gaza in an armed coup after failing to win an election when considered across all PA territory. They locally won some power in Gaza but cemented that by throwing “political” opponents off roofs.

However, in a democracy, voting is the last and least most important part of the process. Nobody was free to criticize Hamas openly. Democracy is always still born when Islam is playing at the table.

And tying it back to Helen Go Home Thomas. Israeli Jews are a complete mish mash of inter-married European and Arabic-Jews with more than a million Russians added. We have stronger and more easily documented ties to this land than anyone and we’re not moving.

* On a separate note we’re on or around the “death day” of Muhammad and the widely believed story is that he was poisoned by a woman. Have a wild guess the religion of that woman.

Glenn E. says:

Well while we’re speculating on whether Israel has the right (or not) to take back land their ancestors once lived on (after wandering around in the deserts for some time, and then finally settling there). Let’s also consider other displaced “native” peoples. Top of the list, the American Indians. Shouldn’t all the lands of North America be given back to native Americans, and all those currently occupying said lands, go back to wherever the hell we came from? And how about a more recently displaced people, the Nepalese? The world hardly even raised an eyebrow when China took over their lands. And threatened the lives of their religious leaders. Imagine if that had happened to Rome, and the Vatican. There would have been WW3 over it. But I guess Buddhism doesn’t count as a world religion.

It’s pretty obvious that what does count, is how big your financial and lobbying power is. And that’s the only reason why Israel has all the political support its got to (re)exist in Palestine. And the great many of the Jews living there now. Left perfect good homes behind in other countries, to occupy these settlements, as a political statement, rather than as a necessary survival one. They weren’t fleeing any religious or economic oppressions, back where they came from. And quite possibly now, they’re being subsidized to live in Palestine. Because I can’t see how there economic system could be self-sustaining, without outside help. Like all the financial help they’re getting from the US and others. Again, lobbying at work.

Which is why Helen Thomas had to go. She upset the powers that be.

harold says:

For jews, crucifixion is a spectator sport.

Phydeau says:

#101 For someone claiming to be totally impartial, bobbo, you’re pretty one-sided.

What do you expect anyone to do when a killer is on about their business?

Both sides are killers, bobbo. Blood on the hands, on all sides. You said yourself, force is all that matters. The Jews used force to win and now they have to use force to keep their victory. They have no moral high ground. The Palestinians lost, for now, and they’re fighting to win.

Your analogy is bogus. There is no reason to expect the side that is currently losing to just give up and accept the other side’s victory. Your bogus analogy attempts to give the Israelis some moral high ground, when they have none. Give it up.

It’s funny how some otherwise liberal/progressive people can be so irrational about Israel. Oh well.

Mr. Fusion says:

#129, Benji,

Too bad. I wanted your response from the videos on #126 that showed some of the weapons found on the Flotilla ship.

Videos are the easiest method of propaganda. If you want to believe a video, taken by the same people that murdered nine people in International Waters by those who did the murdering and hijacking then feel free. It only shows how easily you can be fooled.

There are no independent reports of ANY weapons on any of the ships. It has been admitted by the Israelis that they released false videos and audio recordings of the hijacking.