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Flawed premise from the get go. Downhill from there…
Good analogies.
Actually, my dog and I have some of the most intelligent conversations. We debate whether it’s meal time yet. True story.
Of course we are. Aren’t you also on DU and other blogs venting away? We’re a comedy show to Aliens…you know like Three’s Company 🙂
As much as I like Neil, he’s way off base here. Chimpanzees are not intelligent life, they do not have the capacity to build interstellar spaceships or complex technology, they do not have the ability to reason or learn multiple languages, etc. Therefore, they are a poor analogue for extraterrestrial alien life who would have to cross many lightyears to reach us.
Besides, we have taught some chimps to communicate quite well with us.
We are blithering drooling idiots…just read some of the news.
Another question:
We humans have a great range of intelligence. Some of us write symphonies and explore the Universe and the some of us shoot each other. May be there are those of us who are so brilliant and DO understand the origins of Universe but those others for religious, for lack of a better word, can’t GET IT. Is it possible that some Hindu sadhu does understand the Universe and that can’t be communicated to the rest of us who don’t have the ability to GET IT? Perhaps exploration of intelligence should begin here on earth in ourselves.
Now if I could only get those voles to understand why they shouldn’t dig around the house foundation.
Well, the critical error Neil makes is confusing intelligence, the ability to learn, with the accumulation and passing on of that intelligence, ie culture-in this case the written word.
Yes “culture”–the preservation, accumulation, and passing on of knowledge. Too bad it can go in both directions. The Dark Ages shows a reversal of our culture, of our knowledge base as religion filled and forced that vacuum. Looks to me like it (religion) is on the verge of forcing another reversal in man’s cultural progress.
I’m just saying.
While it was an amusing presentation, it really did not get to the heart of the problem.
We are currently different from the chimps as a result of changes in our DNA *and* a period of evolution after each change. Environment and our need to adapt to it shapes the final result. To believe that an alien life form has been subject to a similar (and parallel) evolution which would facilitate our communication is questionable.
The best we can hope for is that both parties are willing to go through a long period of mutual misunderstanding until a common iconography can be established. Yes, pictures. This cuts through the problems of different vocal capabilities, language referents, syntax, customs and sense limiations.
Assuming the aliens aren’t born fully encyclopedic, we could most probably communicate at a basic level…
Probably. Or, perhaps they just don’t want to talk to meat.
(I’m sure I’ve posted this before, but love the story, so post it every opportunity.)
http://tinyurl.com/n2g9mz
I admire Neil deGrasse Tyson, but he is wrong on this one. Not about the 1% plus DNA difference between men and chimps but that this difference is an analogy in any way for the point he was making.
#11. Good stuff Scotty.
#5
You’re defining intelligence by one being able to create? There are many things other life forms can do that we humans cannot.
Red eye frogs communicating by humming at 12Hz 🙂 Many many insects at low frequencies and elephants.
So many I think you may have been referring to our ability to think, reason, create, “grow”, etc. But then again, aren’t we humans just growing faster and not necessarily evolving any quicker? We did come from one of them lower life forms (IF you believe in the theory of evolution that is).
So what I’m saying is that if one concludes other animals are stupid and remains stupid for the rest of their millions of lives, then where did you and I come about?
The 1% difference between us and chimps is approximately real. But consider how very long it took for us to understand the complex gesture-based, posture-based, expression-based communications among chimps that do, in fact, carry complex ideas.
Chimps war with each other.
Chimps form gangs.
Chimps seduce.
To characterize them as such low-lifes as Neil does is a mistake. It shows how little HE knows about them more than it shows how much can be known about them.
The hypothetical aliens, we might presume, would be curious enough to find us interesting; worth study as a sub-unit of self-aware consciousness. Neil doesn’t get into the notion that advanced self-aware life forms would possess immense curiosity and scientific inquiry.
Nor does he forward any idea that with towering intellect would come towering anti-wisdom–a prerequisite for these mental giants to treat us with distain.
I swear some of you guys obsess over the little things rather than understanding his general point. The genetic observation is nothing more than a way for him to springboard onto his main theme of we (as humans) seem to think very highly of ourselves and our accomplishments. So much so that we believe it demands the attention of any sentient species from another planet.
Our best may not mean much to an alien race. It all revolves around what your measuring stick for intelligence is. It seems the majority of us have convinced ourselves of Hollywood’s versions of alien visitation or interest in humans.
#5 – Cephus,
By your incredibly narrow definition of intelligence, beavers are the second most intelligent species on the planet. Are you really prepared to make that statement? I’m not.
I won’t believe in aliens until I see one. There is no evidence that aliens exist. I probably should watch the video anyway because I write science fiction and it might give me ideas. The aliens I create in my writing or read about in science fiction are more real than theoretical aliens that might exist somewhere.
If aliens do exist, they probably couldn’t get to us anyway because of the speed of light and their radio signals couldn’t get to us due to the inverse square law.
However, if aliens do land on Earth, for get I said the above because it would be cool.
# 14 The0ne said, on June 4th, 2010 at 8:48 am
#5
>>You’re defining intelligence by one being able to create? There are many things other life forms can do that we humans cannot.
But are those many other things of major importance? Name one other species that is at the top of the food chain, can manipulate the environment to its near satisfaction, has explored the Universe and other planets (one in person), has developed two of the greatest theories of the Universe* and can easily destroy the entire planet. What a shame greed and crime are two of our major traits. What a miracle we continue to overcome these to achieve what we do.
*quantum mechanics and relativity
Would you land here?
#19 – KD Martin,
Intelligence is a sliding scale not a binary switch. What you say is certainly true.
However, you do ignore the quite significant accomplishments of other animals. For example, dolphins understand when we speak or gesture, even if that gesture is on a TV screen, meaning that they can make the leap from a 2D image of a 3D human and understand.
Unfortunately, when they speak, we understand nothing. We have not even identified the most basic calls of a dolphin as we have for chimps, vervet monkeys, and even prairie dogs.
You also ignore that chimps have developed tools, including spears. Crows also make tools and cache the good ones for later reuse. Orangutans happen to be excellent locksmiths and are often “employed” to test chimp and gorilla cages, meaning that if the orang can’t get out, neither will the chimp or gorilla.
You also, by your definition of intelligence assert that beavers are smarter than chimps or dolphins. Be careful how you define intelligence. It is a thing we can’t even define, let alone test, even in our own species.
The best definitions we have for intelligence essentially invoke MAMBIT, meaning that intelligence is the set of mental abilities measured by intelligence. Since W scores high (about 125) on such tests, we can see that they do not test for rational, veridical, and critical thinking, at a minimum.
So, before we talk about whether aliens are too smart to bother with us, we better define what smart is. And, for it to be a good definition, let’s try to come up with one that doesn’t put our famous wetlands engineers at the second spot on the planet. I really doubt they can outsmart a chimp … or a wolf, bear, or coyote.
Sorry, in my prior post, the MAMBIT bit should read:
MAMBIT, meaning that intelligence is the set of mental abilities measured by intelligence tests.
Obviously, this is a recursive definition.
#20 – sargasso,
Would you land here?
Yes. But, given the assumption that I am an alien capable of traveling light years to get here, I will make sure to arrive about 250,000 years ago or earlier to avoid having to deal with homo sapiens. Alternately, I can arrive later, possibly not even very much later, after stupid humans kill themselves off. Though, waiting for most of the human works to decay would be better. To avoid the plastic and radioactive trash though, a couple of hundred thousand years earlier may be the only way to go.
#19
I can’t help but laugh, in an amused way. I don’t mean to be insulting.
As I’ve said, we humans can do what you’ve said. It is our trait, to learn, to grow (not necessarily evolve), to change, etc. That is NOT something we should expect of species. There are many things animals can do that we cannot do and have yet to understand. In this sense we are in fact INFERIOR to them but that does not mean we are less intelligent.
Again, if you want to define intelligence by what we humans can do and create then I can assure you we’re not the only intelligent life forms on this planet.
Look at our human history of evolution, isn’t that in itself incredible (again, if you believe in the theory of evolution)? Who is to say that in 1000 years from now, there will be a species that looks at the current set of species and the past set of species and say that very EXACT same thing you are….that we humans rule baby! Actually, this has already been happening throughout history so I think the point is clear.
And lastly, we as humans are actually just learning and finding what nature, including the universe and that which is all, has already laid out (for the most part) for everyone. What is the famous quote….
“nothing unreal exists…” something like that hahaha
Or to put it simply, when you begin to think you are more intelligent there will always be someone that makes you look like a child…guarantee.
Cephus said,
“Chimpanzees are not intelligent life, they do not have the capacity to build interstellar spaceships or complex technology, they do not have the ability to reason or learn multiple languages, etc.”
Obviously you have never seen the movie “Planet of the Apes” or its many sequels 😉
And by the way, people in general are complete and total idiots. You see clear evidence of this everyday in the news.
#25 – Steve S,
And by the way, people in general are complete and total idiots. You see clear evidence of this everyday in the news.
Excellent point. And, it’s getting worse, not better.
Perhaps only those very few humans who have actually contributed new information to the species count as intelligent. Even that small percentage of us who are at least smart enough to have some limited comprehension of what the really smart people are doing would not qualify.
However, the chimps who invented the spear, the termite fishing stick, and the nutcracker might make the cut along with the crow who invented the bug fishing hook and the green heron who invented fly-fishing.
Dave,
Why in the HELL would you insult Carl Sagan by comparing that SOB, Tyson, to him? The guys a hack!
I think the story that appears below this one answers that question.
What you need is a very advanced tech using civilization that has enough in common with us not to regard us the way we regard ants or termites.
They might be using sound to “see” with like bats and odors to communicate with and be social like social insects. In that case they aren’t all that likely to be interested in wasting much time on us other than to determine if we might be useful to them in some manner and if the answer is no…
When a high tech culture runs into a low tech culture the low tech culture and its citizens normally vanishes and that is when the members of both cultures are the same species.
If I ever get a chance to communicate with aliens I’ll convince them that republicans are in-season and tasty!