Meanwhile, Tom McClintock (R-California), responds to the double standard of the Mexican president. Of course, there was no standing ovation for him.
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Wow, Guyver just has such a huge nut for this law. Perhaps he should just go have a few orgasms with it.
“Reasonable Suspicion” can easily used to assume guilt in any situation. If the officer (or city official) thought you looked at them funny they could trump up something to look into your “papers”.
I’m waiting for the first few dozen lawsuits by legal citizens to bankrupt AZ completely.
The other issue here is E — arrest without a warrant for probable cause. Very easy to extend that into other laws if it isn’t struck down. So all you druggies will be arrested for probable cause quite a lot in AZ in a few years.
And, of course, there’s the short-circuiting of any locality to decide its own affairs in section A. I thought libertarians didn’t like that sort of thing.
But in any case, all the bitching about federal obligations is fairly stupid. when the feds actually SPEND the money and manpower to do their job, the states get all pissy about it. When they DON’T the states get all pissy about it.
Complete waste of taxpayer money and time, a huge clusterfuck just like drug laws. But hey, whatever, we’re just printing money these days, what does it matter anymore.
#24
Society’s reasons are not what could be argued in a court of law because the society is defined within the district they live in.
Example in Nevada some areas are designated by law as legal for the solicitation of prostitution. To other districts (say Cleveland, OH) this is an illegal transaction. Courts cannot go by societal norms. Hence why laws are defined by either subsection of law or by Administrative Codes that are legally tested and based upon current code and/or legal precedent.
The rule must be defined or it can be struck down by a higher court.
#26 Biased or Prejudiced decisions are removed when their is a clear code exists for the use of fair-play and due process. The use of pre-judgement is not allowable. Anything that causes a break down in the presumption of integrity and honesty will cause the law to become questionable.
There is no doubt that many LEOs are reasonable in due process and fair-play. But a code or law should contain what denotes that and what violates it. This law does not address either, nor is their a provision within the law to account for it in Arizona Administrative Code, Or else it would be shown in the document. Which it is not. It is left up to the LEO to make such a decision and that is not enough in this case.
I cannot understand why the writers went to such length in other factors of defining the verbiage but not in the first and most crucial section.
My only thought is that it was done so it could be struck down by a higher court ruling and again shows that the political agenda was to “appear” tough while really not caring at all.
Cursor_
#17 The ‘reprehensible’ response by Dems was directed to Calderon’s opinions of the Arizona law – they both think is sucks. I don’t see what’s so unusual.
I will say that yelling “you lie” in a state of the union address is unusual. What are your thoughts on that? Thought so.
Anyway, To be honest, I have mixed feelings on this law. On the one hand it’s not for Arizona to set US immigration law and unlike Repugs, I’m not keen on some gestapo cowboy cop asking for papers.
on the other, I can see the border concerns with Arizona. Obama must act but the last time I looked, the Repugs thought Obama should do nothing just now ….
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/93265-mccain-senate-gop-will-oppose-immigration-reform-until-borders-secured
Too easy. The occifer just asks “Whaddaya think of them Cardinals?”, and depending on which answer he gets:
a) I have Stan Musial’s Greatest Hits in my rack of 78’s;
b) We don’t need no stinking feetball;
c) Ellos son casi tan bueno como el Papa;
d) Nem tudom semmit;
e) Are they native here?
he acts accordingly. Doesn’t need to ask a second question.
All these non-Arizonans don’t understand. Despite lines in the law stating otherwise there is no way to enforce this law without racial profiling. We know this as a fact because our fascist Sheriff Joe Arpaio has been engaging in racial profiling for a few years now, and is under federal investigation for it.
The state has 2 and a half million hispanics, only 1 in 5 are here illegally at most. The two million legal hispanics, some families which have lived in Arizona when it was still part of Mexico.
The law will have zero effect on illegal immigration, the supposed 1.3 billion the state hopes to save will NOT be saved, and instead we will lose more billions in tourism and other economic boycotts. Worse, we can no longer charge the Federal Government to house captured illegals, we will have to pay for it ourselves. Then there is the added enforcement costs we cannot afford, and the cost of all the lawsuits that are being filed against the state.
Worse, illegal immigration and crimes associated with it have been DOWN since 2005. There is NO GOOD REASON for this law to exist except for the GOP controlled legislature to exercise “tyranny of the majority” on the Hispanic minority.
If the GOP thinks this is going to be the magic bullet to keep them in power, they are greatly mistaken. Support for this law is falling with every poll conducted, and could ultimately turn the state blue. Other states that are considering similar legislation had better watch very carefully to the mess that is being created here, they had better think twice about repeating the same mistakes.
Votes, votes, votes, this is all this about. Dems want more of them. They see the hispanic vote at their brass ring. Not only are they courting the ones here legally, but they see the millions that will flow over the boarder as new future democrats. Whether it be through anchor babies or illegal voter registration from the likes of Acorn and similar action groups, they are insuring their future. They don’t realize this country we be destroyed into some 3rd rate European clone as a result.
Dallas, let me put it this way. You invite me into your house with your wife and three kids. You serve me a nice dinner, the best wine you have, and write me a check to pay for my rent next month.
After all that, I then decide I am going to tell you that your oldest daughter is whore, who sleeps around with any man that has $10 in his pocket, all the while my oldest daughter is doing the same thing, but also has 5 kids because of it.
At this point you would tell me to get the hell out, and I would be lucky if you didn’t kick my ass in the process. You don’t go into someone elses house accept their hospitality and then insult them in their own home. It shows no respect. You can bet if our president went to Mexico and started talking talking about how they have to change their laws he would be asked to leave.
That’s what should have happen here. Once the Mexican president started insulting our country, both houses should have gotten up and walked out. After he got done talking to the camera’s he should then have been asked to leave.
Let’s see…. can’t look too hard at Islamic men at airports….can’t look too hard at Mexicans in Arizona with no Driver’s Licenses……
America, kiss your ass goodbye.
And, you Democrats, you are fucking ruining a a once great country. Disgusting, just disgusting.
#38 Bob, fair enough and I relate to your analogy albeit differently…….I invite you to my house to meet by male partner of 22 years, describe how we both pay more taxes than 99% of the US population. Pay school taxes yet have no kids and both perform community service. After you tell us fags to rot in hell and assault us with your bible, I politely ask you to leave.
Having said all that, I consider Congress a place to conduct business, not a social gathering. If the Head of State of Mexico come in and politely tells us we’re full of shit, I take that as very useful information that I would rather have than a load of niceties that produce nothing.
#39 This is what you’re really afraid of…
Oooh. The latinos are gonna be a majority soon in Arizona and not us whites.
Now look what you’ve done. You’ve ruined everything.
@Dallas
You’re an idiot. I know of an illegal that came to this country nearly 20 years ago, and pretty much the moment he crossed the border, he started spewing anti-American diatribes and trying to farm his Mexican pride out everywhere he could. His kids got a free ride in Texas schools and somehow managed to get scholarships to a state school because of it. Which they BLEW because they smoke pot and drink like alcoholic fish and are generally lazy thugs that have some modicum of musical talent because their dad conscripted them into playing mariachi music to further his La Raza crap. He does not respect this country. He does not deserve amnesty. He deserves to be shuffled of to resume the crapola lifestyle he ran away from in Mexico in the first place. And, BTW, La Raza will certainly spark the next round of locally grown nutcase terrorists, and will be aided by drug money because that improves their business. I can see why Arizona would want to bolster defenses against them.
They need to be deported, and everyone else like them!
Dear Calderon,
Get back to work fixing your shithole country, then maybe your citizens wouldn’t be willing to risk there lives to leave.
The best part about Mexico is that it has everything it needs to be a great nation.
To anybody that thinks the AZ law is poorly written… how would YOU write the law?
Give it a try, and publish here. We are waiting…
Bob,
That was PERFECT. An excellent analogy. I think I am going to forward that along to some people I know.
P.S., don’t bother talking to Dallas, it’s a waste of time.
Notice in your post how you showed respect by stating that he would stand up for himself in his home and he returns that respect by calling you a gay basher?
Where in your post did you say anything about gays, or showed any disrespect at all?
Dallas obviously has deep seated persecution issues with a sprinkling of self loathing.
Don’t waste your time on him. Your time is more valuable than he is worth. I know mine is.
Hey Dallas–I thought you were getting pushed into a hole, but you parried nicely==well done.
Yes. I dont even care that Calderon was an obvious “flaming” hypocrite and a liar/poser/manipulator/power hungry BS politician. Aren’t they all most of the time?
I was thinking at the time with a truthful exchange Calderon could say that Mexico is too poor to allow immigration and that such is not the case for USA. Actually, its hard to criticize Mexico’s Immigration Policy when in fact it is what all/most countries do and what the USA should do as well?
Very difficult to criticize illegal immigration when USA does everything it can do to encourage it. We too are hypocrites, of the self destructive kind.
So Dallas, I too am disgusted by public displays of ceremony that mean nothing and meant to keep the sheep asleep, aka-99% of Political Speakers (including Obama!) and 95% of tv news.
We are all drowning in BS. Sad its only noticed when its BS we disagree with. Still all BS.
Fuck that midget taco eating chilli-pepper farting bastard from the asshole of north america mexi-shit-co Calderon
#47 well, i agree with you.
I have a problem with illegal immigrants but a bigger problem with these lying hypocrits in here calling anotjer a lying hypocrit!
#46 fuck you and die. How you like them apples?
#43 yup. You pretty much proved my point about the white sentiment of Mexicans. The illegal alien issue, while valid, has little to do with the sentiments being discussed here.
It truly is about the fear of whites crossing the <50% majority. It will happen first in Arizona. I would agree it poses a social conflict moving forward.
The illegal alien issue has been around for decades and needs to be dealt with but all of a sudden it presents an opportunistic point of division for republican political gain. It's thd gay marriage of the coming elections. I've seen this playbook before.
# 17 jbenson2 said, “He wags his finger at the U.S. but does turns a blind eye to his own country’s restrictive laws.”
Follow the money. Juan Gomez sneaks into the US gets “lucrative” job washing dishes, sends $10 K home to his family every year. Meanwhile, Gorge Lozano sneaks into Mexico from Ecuador. He gets “lucrative” job picking agave and sends pesos back to Quito. One illegal immigrant is a net benefit to his country the other a drain. Basic economics.
BTW – for those of you who support a boycott of AZ – you know who you’ll be hurting most? the poor Mexican hospitality workers and laborers, legal and illegal. You know, the ones you profess so much love for.
#18 cursor:
“Nowhere in this “law” is a provision to what defines “reasonable suspicion””
The courts determine what reasonable suspicion is through precedent, as far as I understand.
#36 Ariane:
“All these non-Arizonans don’t understand…”
‘The law will have zero effect on illegal immigration…”
I live in Arizona.
It seems the problem was that the cops would arrest someone, but not phone it into INS if they were suspicious for fear of getting slapped with a lawsuit.
A key part of the bill ensures that an officer facing charges of discrimination in court over checking a perp’s immigration status would be defended at the state’s expense.
The way the bill is written, it seems like all it would do is open up enough of a wedge for the police to properly determine the immigration status of people *arrested for already having committed another crime*.
That’s key, but most people think it allows the cops to stop people *solely* for the purposes of checking immigration status, which it doesn’t.
#50 “The illegal alien issue has been around for decades and needs to be dealt with but all of a sudden it presents an opportunistic point of division for republican political gain”
You are kidding yourself if you think that does not apply to Democrats as well. You are using this issue to deride the Republican party.
I’m sure you know of the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986. That was supposed to reform immigration law and yet here we are again. Which party’s president signed it into law?
Extract of Californis Penal Code Section 834b.
(b) With respect to any such person who is arrested, and suspected of being present in the United States in violation of federal
immigration laws, every law enforcement agency shall do the following:
(1) Attempt to verify the legal status of such person as a citizen of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted as a permanent resident, an alien lawfully admitted for a temporary period of time or as an alien who is present in the United States in violation of
immigration laws. The verification process may include, but shall not be limited to, questioning the person regarding his or her date and place of birth, and entry into the United States, and DEMANDING DOCUMENTATION TO INDICATE HIS OR HER LEGAL STATUS.
http://tinyurl.com/36x42g9
#54. …which president signed it….
Don’t follow. What’s your point about some immigration bill signed a decade or so ago?
Also, glad you agree with my point about immigration is a convenient divisive issue.
That would be, “Extract of California Penal Code Section 834b.”
#56
“Also, glad you agree with my point about immigration is a convenient divisive issue.”
I can see why people say don’t talk to Dallas it’s a waste of time.
You are just amusing yourself playing word games.
ArianeB #36
“All these non-Arizonans don’t understand….”
I’m from Arizona too, particularly Maricopa county, and I’d ask you kindly to stop speaking for all Arizonans. There are plenty of ways to enforce this law without racial profiling. A car that has more passengers than it was intended to have is one way suspicion can be raised. Another suspicious activity is when the occupants of a car have no idea who the other occupants are. Also, it’s a bit suspicious when the owners name is not the guy/gal who is driving the car and they are a long way from where the car is registered.
Sheriff Joe keeps getting elected every two years for a reason. If any of these investigation bore fruit he’d have been gone long ago.
“The state has 2 and a half million hispanics…”
Yeah, there were a few thousand Hispanics in Southern Arizona but there were some Anglos too. But in reality anything North of the Gila river had never been colonized while under Spanish or Mexican control. Tucson was the northernmost presidio at the time Mexico took over. Venturing North towards Snaketown or the White Mountains was not wise. So, most of what is Arizona today was under control of the Apaches, and many other Native American tribes even when Spain and Mexico claimed it.
“The law will have zero effect on illegal immigration…”
There are news stories that state the law is already having an effect,’Day laborers’ know the gig is up and are moving elsewhere or going back to wherever they came from.
“Worse, illegal immigration and crimes associated with it have been DOWN …”
So, we should stop enforcing homicide laws if homicides go down? There is good reason for this law to exist. It will cut down on the tax evasion by ‘day laborers’ for one. It will also allow for the prosecution of those that use ‘day laborers’ to hide profits and circumvent labor and tax laws.
“If the GOP thinks this is going to be the magic bullet…”
Hmm, I doubt 70% of Arizonans are Republicans but it would seem that certain Republicans in Arizona are the only ones listening to the electorate.
#59 GF – thanks for the brief travelogue. I haven’t been home for years. Before I went to med school I was a member of a search and rescue team that used to comb some of those areas. Sadly, we found more bodies than living. If this law does nothing else, I hope it cuts down the number who die in the AZ desert. It’s not a good way to die.
Tom McClintock is crystal clear and nails it beautifully. Teddy Roosevelt’s words should be repeated again and again. And everybody should contemplate what the E Pluribus Unum really means.
The applause given the Mexican head of state was simply appalling! I doubt they were awake enough to know what they cheered for….
Glass Half Full said, on May 21st, 2010 at 12:38 pm edit
>>Er…what’s “shameful” about that? The Arizona law is horrible and racist. Mexico isn’t Iran…they’re NOT our enemy, they’re a friend, one of our biggest trading partners and a major ally. It’s not treason to cheer for their democratically elected President. It’s ok. Grow up.
———————–
#21, Guyver, thank you. Correct.
WTF right does that jerk have to come over here and criticize our Constitution and legal procedures? They’re a friend? YOU grow up. Arizona did nothing but attempt to put some muscle behind what is already Federal law. And ICE won’t even honor it. Screw the Feds, too. Horrible and racist my butt! I don’t care if they’re Russians, Mexicans or British. Screw the illegal immigrants, let ’em go back to whence they came. Deport them immediately. They are breaking the law. And screw Calderon, Odumba, Biden and those who applauded Calderon for criticizing our laws. Back to taco bell for him, endorsing breaking the law, sedition and vilification of the Constitution. He sure is doing a fine job of enforcing his own laws, like taking care of the drug cartels, prosecuting criminal Federales and much, much more. Maybe you’d like to spend some time in a Mexican prison trying to immigrate there. If you think this country and current regime are in fine shape, let us know. After your retirement bucks are worth about 1/2 of what they are now, of course.
I wonder if I can retire to Mexico without being mugged or killed…