UPDATE:
Wow! Who could have predicted this?
To make a long story short: this is all reported to be a fake. The photos were reputed to have been taken off site near the Black Sea, but the film footage the Chinese now have was shot on location on Mt. Ararat. In the late summer of 2008 ten Kurdish workers hired by Parasut, the guide used by the Chinese, are said to have planted large wood beams taken from an old structure in the Black Sea area (where the photos were originally taken) at the Mt. Ararat site. In the winter of 2008 a Chinese climber taken by Parasut’s men to the site saw the wood, but couldn’t get inside because of the severe weather conditions. During the summer of 2009 more wood was planted inside a cave at the site.
ORIGINAL STORY:
THE remains of Noah’s Ark have been discovered 13,000ft up a Turkish mountain, it has been claimed. A group of Chinese and Turkish evangelical explorers say they have found wooden remains on Mount Ararat in eastern Turkey. They claim carbon dating proves the relics are 4,800 years old — around the same time the ark was said to be afloat. Yeung Wing-Cheung, from the Noah’s Ark Ministries International research team, said: “It’s not 100 per cent that it is Noah’s Ark, but we think it is 99.9 per cent that this is it.”
He said the structure contained several compartments, some with wooden beams, that they believe were used to house animals.
The group of evangelical archaeologists ruled out an established human settlement on the grounds none have ever been found above 11,000ft in the vicinity, Yeung said. Local Turkish officials will ask the central government in Ankara to apply for UNESCO World Heritage status so the site can be protected while a major archaeological dig is conducted.
The biblical story says that God decided to flood the Earth after seeing how corrupt it was.
Huh, I thought they found that boat long ago.
#67–Dr Wally==thats the question that got me kicked out of Bible Studies in the Fifth Grade.
As stated above, science and religion don’t mix. You go one way or the other.
SCIENCE says it is impossible for the flood to have occured and there are about 394 different ways to show the impossibility (See Pandeism above).
RELIGION the dumb kind–“Its a Miracle.”
RELIGION the smart kind– “Its a Mystery.” aka “Don’t confuse my faith with facts.”
# 68 bobbo, “Animby==ever seen the stone structures in Peru? You can’t get a piece of paper between them for the entire structure, earthquake damage excluded. They really are beautiful constructs.”
I’ve been to Machu Pichu and the work is quite elegant. But, again, the stones show a lot of last minute finishing to make them fit so nicely. Nothing wrong with that. But go around and look at the rear and things are not so well put together.
Which, coincidentally, describe my first wife, too.
#70–Animby==I actually was thinking of the structures in and around Cuzco but Machu Picchu is a magical place. Had a nice long conversation with the Brazilian Manager of the Hotel there about how/why/challenges to South America uniting like the USA has done. Would love to go back and jump over some of the broken Inca Trail.
How can you tell a close fitting rock is a last minute finish and what difference does that make?
FYI–I’m not going around to the “back side” of Machu Picchu. I wonder how many tourists have fallen off that steep slope?—although no more steep than the front side, just no steps.
Darn!–Animby==I see your overweening interest in rock structures given you ex crushed your stones. It is all about the fit. Hee, hee.
#69 Sudden catastrophic plate tectonics deepened the oceans and uplifted the continents into mountains ranges. Mt Everest is the height it is because the subduction of the Indo-Australian plate under the Eurasian plate. It is still growing although much more slowly than immediately after the Flood. The crust of the Earth was literally folded in the aftermath of the Flood.
Benji==where in the bible does it say THAT? STOP the false idolatry of trying to “prove” your religion by science that only disproves it, save for your basic ignorance or manipulation or WAG, however you might take it.
What you say though remain gibberish. If the oceans deepened, wouldn’t that reduce the sea level? Picture a globe–then deepen the outer core==what do you have? Higher mountains requiring even more water to cover them.
Your formulation as best as it can be understood makes the opposite case.
Good boy Benji.
bobbo, you just totally make these discussions interesting for me.
#74 “If the oceans deepened, wouldn’t that reduce the sea level?”
That is why the Earth is no longer covered by water. The sea level at the time of the Flood was reduced after the Flood.
#74 “where in the bible does it say THAT?”
Oh course they didn’t know about plate tectonics in Bible times, but here is what the Bible says about the receding Flood waters as they understood it:
Psalm 104: 6-9
6. You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains.
7. At your rebuke they fled;
at the sound of your thunder they took to flight.
8. The mountains rose, the valleys sank down
to the place that you appointed for them.
9. You set a boundary that they may not pass,
so that they might not again cover the earth.”
qb–I take that as high praise as I was impressed by your contribution to 2-3 threads a few months ago.
but you are STINGY with your expertise.
Must not be a preening know it all erudite pedantic rhetorical sophist?
Hmmmm. Which way to go?
So Benji==you are saying that god did not bring any more water into creation, he just “sunk” the earth that was around at the time? He sunk all the continents down and then raised them back up? Yea, I can see that, in a miracle kind of way.
And he left all the salt towers in caves trapped in air bubbles? Why does god give us a universe that looks just as if he doesn’t exist? Why the jokester?
Gee, maybe I’d still be religious if you had been my bible school teacher? I’ve always thought about becoming a bible school teacher. My plan would be to teach the bible but also a bunch of wrong things like the name of a cat is “dog” and the moon is made of green cheese. That sort of non-biblical thing. When the kiddies grew some and figured out how lame I was on what they were free to inquire themselves about, there would be “some” inducement to also think about those things they are barred from thinking about.
amusing, nor not. Daydreams.
#78, Oh sorry I was only answering where the water went to, not where it came from. There is where our confusion came from. I did not for a moment mean for you to think the He sunk all the continents down and raised them back up.
I meant the weight of all that water broke the crust into plates and the oceans basins sunk which caused the continents to upwell due to magma displacement. The surface area of the Earth was increased and made room for the water. The water didn’t go anywhere. Room was made for it.
Where did it come from? I didn’t answer that. It rained for forty days and forty nights and fountains sprang forth from the deep.
Benjamin… in 81 or 10,000 posts, there will be no change.
faith (fâth) n.: strong or unshakable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence.
You will never convince Benjamin of any proof that contradicts his belief. He simply won’t allow it, or is unable allow it. Faith in God is an irrational motive.
All we can hope is for evolution to somehow fix it.
BENJAMIN!!! Seriously. Stop making your religion look stupid by proving it with science. Why do you care what science says about your faith? Evil lurks there star wanderer.
Silly.
I thought you are only choosing between your least misunderstood scientific processes, but consistently, I was fooled by you again.
You do understand the hydraulic cycle sufficient to know that all rain and spring water comes from the ocean? If the ocean rose at all from the action of rain, then god created more water for those 40 days to accomplish same.
Do you understand it is just as miraculous to create water as it is to sink earth? And leave no geological record of either?
Did you watch the Pandeism Video on this subject? What about the following global winter?
You see the warp and weave of science??? Cloth yourself. The moon is not made of green cheese.
#81 I tried to summarize the answer I got here about where did all the water go: http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-floodwater.html Not my answers.
I also like science. I always wanted to know how stuff works and science answers many of those questions. Science is not evil and science is not incompatible with faith.
Re#82, But really, Benjamin, it was your post and your answer.
re: “I meant the weight of all that water broke the crust into plates and the oceans basins sunk which caused the continents to upwell due to magma displacement. The surface area of the Earth was increased and made room for the water. The water didn’t go anywhere. Room was made for it.I would like to add anyway…”
Can you imagine the magnitude of that earthquake as the whole earth suddenly completely transformed? Noah’s puny wooden boat survived being slapped around by 1000 ft high, choppy waves? How about the quake when the whole earth cracked back into place while Noah’s puny little wooden boat sat atop a mountain. A crystal goblet would have a better chance against a sledge hammer.
But if you insist, I’ll give the credit for that gem to christianmorons.org
One of the Evangelical search team found a steering wheel near the front of the ark, and another team member found a compass which was stamped, ‘made in occupied Japan’
Bobbo
“On the mitochondrial dna, your superior knowledge of the bible got me there. I think I confused it with Adam and Eve which really raises the same question 1000 years earlier”
We all apparently originated from one source anyway… be it adam and eve or a monkey or a crustacion… why cant we find that in our dna?
oh and when they find the missing link i’ll believe evolution… so far this “mythology” is looking more accurate!
Bobbo
“On the mitochondrial dna, your superior knowledge of the bible got me there. I think I confused it with Adam and Eve which really raises the same question 1000 years earlier”
We all apparently originated from one source anyway… be it adam and eve or a monkey or a crustacean… why cant we find that in our DNA?
oh and when they find the missing link i’ll believe evolution… so far this “mythology” is looking more accurate!
Everyone should have guessed that Noah landed in Australia because the Kangaroos, Platpi and Koalas were the last to get off.As a matter of fact it was sort of an around the world cruise The Bison got off in Montana at the first site of dry land,the Unicorns got off in Ireland and Dragons got off in Germany but froze to death being cold blooded the first snow were deadly.Noah shoved off most of the big critters in Africa because of the sanitation and flea problems. the Wooly Mamoths, Saber Tooth Cats and Pandas got off in China.Mel Brooks was dropped off in Jersey and Jonah got off to Mid Mediterranean to form Atlantis, A few folks got off in Mesopotamia, sea sickness.Noah landed in Australia. How am I sure of this .Previous to Ark Building Noah invented the very first boomerang, getting the idea from an ET encounter.It was a very closely guarded secret and he didn’t want it falling into the wrong hands.Hence that’s why only Aborigines have it.Noah ended up burning the Ark for firewood everything else was soggy.Quite a few of the clan moved North then East because they missed snow and had grown fond of the Camels and horses so they took them with them.They did forget to take the majestic Tipararies. That’s why to this day the Aborigines still sing, “Its a long way to Tipararies.” Noah coined the phrase “Google It” then it meant to shove all the animal crap to the back of the boat so the bow would ride high in the waves.
>> bobbo, the evangelical anti-theist but not a geneticist said, on April 27th, 2010 at 7:39 pm
>> Greg–Benji’s second link explains all that. You don’t need “all” the animals of a given family. I think 80% of the ark was reserved for food.
Thanks for the tip — I burrowed deeper and found the calculations. The site said there was plenty of room for 16,000 animals.
But, according to the biblical account, shouldn’t there be a whole lot more than that?
One website says there are “6,000 species of reptiles, 9,000 birds, 1,000 amphibians, and 15,000 species of mammals. ”
That’s 31,000 species
But it’s not just pairs, in chapter 7, it says “Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens” and 7 of all birds, too. I’m not sure exactly how many that is. Aren’t most animals clean to the Jews?
So, that’s something like 150,000 to 200.000 animals.
(… and that’s not counting bugs aka. “every creeping thing.” The bugs surely needed saving too. )
>> I was taught by a very funny fellow? Just a few types because in 2-3000 years, all the different species obviously evolved from the stock provided by the Ark.
Evolved after they left the Ark?!?! That involves some cognitive dissonance.
I don’t know any people who believe in BOTH evolution and the literal story of Noah.
>> Benjamin said, on April 28th, 2010 at 11:00 am
>> I also like science. … Science is not evil and science is not incompatible with faith.
I am dually trained — in science and in theology. (I have degrees in both)
I also agree that science and faith are compatible. As I understand history, a belief in an orderly God led to the foundations of empirical science.
But, a literal reading of the bible is not always compatible with science.
The creation account, for example, simply can’t be reconciled with science. The order of creation is impossible and illogical. (And that’s just one thing. There are lots)
But I don’t confuse my bible with my science text books. So, this doesn’t bother me one bit.
Don’t get me wrong… I think they are BOTH true but describe very different points on the God-Universe continuum.
#87–john==you aver: “We all apparently originated from one source anyway… be it adam and eve or a monkey or a crustacean… why cant we find that in our DNA?” //// Highly definitional but I think that is well established. Many of the cell level processes that we humans have are identical to one celled creatures that we came from. Pretty strong inference there wouldn’t you say? You aren’t looking for Obama’s Birth Certificate are you?
I also thought there was some fanfare last month about finding the missing link? Fossils are rare but it looks more likely all the time that the missing link will appear==still not immune to the argument that there is “another” missing link. Even with a gap at the link though, the chain/tree of evolution for hominids is very well established. No sane person is ignorant about that.
#89–greg==if you buy into the Ark, and the geologic shifts in the crust to bring and remove the flood, I don’t see why species differentiation would be hard to swallow hook line and sinker. Indeed, that is the position expounded on Benji’s link that you read and strongly implied by Benji as his own belief.
“It’s a miracle” that makes science and religion compatible.
#83- Benjamin: All the linked nonsensical pseudo-science boils down to “God did it” and, as previously noted, that is not science — it is supernatural superstition. Not even a good try there, you will have to do better. Having God move tectonic plates up and down is just as silly as saying “He created the water, used it and then made it go away.” But I sense you won’t get that.
Not that I don’t believe in anything. But I highly doubt that there would be anything left to find, that’s so easily recognizable. This sounds like another scam. Just a con to get bucks from the faithful. Unfortunately, it won’t just simply rob the gullible of their retirement funds and spare change. It will set family members against one another. As the doubters and believers will be at odds with each other over this sham of a “find”. Which will fizzle out, just as past Ark finds have. But the bad feeling will remain. Even after the cause for them, fades into obscurity.
These hoaxers ought to be made to apologize, afterwards. But you know they never will. They’ll just claim that there was a cover up. Just try not to interact with the faithful, among your family and friends, until this all blows over. AGAIN!
As I understand it, the ark WAS discovered on Mount Ararat a long time ago but permission was refused to send anyone on the mountain due to politics. As to the question of it being THE ARK that the Christian faith believes in all I can say is that it is interesting that it is there but they would have to provide something more conclusive to get me to say that this was Noah’s Ark.
>> #89–greg==if you buy into the Ark, and the geologic shifts in the crust to bring and remove the flood, I don’t see why species differentiation would be hard to swallow hook line and sinker
I don’t understand how geological “shifts” could be the same as the earth “springs” and sky “floodgates.”
I, too, am an evangelical Christian and have this habit of reading the bible literally.
One can’t call themselves biblical literalist and then change what the bible says to fit modern science. Is that any different than treating it metaphorically or mythically, as liberal Christians do?
I think the the Jews back then didn’t understand the water cycle. They thought there was a big reservoir in the heavens for rain and another one in the earth where springs and lakes and oceans came from. These broke open and let out so much water it covered the highest mountain.
That’s what the bible says.
It’s intellectually dishonest for any self-proclaimed “biblical literalist” to explain this away with plate tectonics.
GregAllen, I don’t think it’s dishonest to explain how God may have accomplished his will. For example, He warned that nobody should touch a different kind of ark… the Ark of the Covenant. When someone did, they died. If you explore how the Ark of the Covenant was built, it was literally a huge electrical capacitor, inlaid with gold within and without and insulated with wood. Touching it, caused a discharge of gathered static electricity to ground and the person completing the circuit was electrocuted.
Another example… not eating pork. One of the problems with pork was due to parasites that would be transferred to the person eating the pork if it weren’t cooked thoroughly. To avoid this problem, God may have chosen to include pork in the unclean classification.
I think of humankind as God’s children and sometimes we as humans need to be treated as though we are children so when He instructs us, we might get a very dumbed down version of what we need to know, not necessarily why.
Greg Allen==you’ve set quite a task for yourself.
Good luck.
Just because it bugged me on first reading, from the article/header:
“The group of evangelical archaeologists ruled out an established human settlement on the grounds none have ever been found above 11,000ft in the vicinity,” /// Ummm, neither has a boat.
but they wanted to find a boat, so I gave it a pass.