This is a Letter to the Editor I wrote today. Is this a fair test?
I have a message for my believing friends and it’s something that believers should really listen to and think about. As a realist who doesn’t believe in God I am often challenged to open my heart and let Jesus in. I am reluctant to do so without any evidence that God exists.
I am told that when one becomes a believer that they have a personal relationship with God and the God transforms you and you become one with the Lord. So from my point of view I should be able to see the difference in the behavior of those who believe as compared to those who don’t believe. But I’m not seeing it. Especially in the latest news coming out about the sexual abuse of children in the Catholic Church.
So let me be clear and direct about this so you Catholics listen up. If there is an omnipotent God and a person or a religious group has a personal relationship with God then you wouldn’t be raping children – period! The Catholic Church would not be covering up for those priests who are raping children. Admittedly, this doesn’t prove that God doesn’t exist, but it does prove that the Catholic Church does not have a personal relationship with an omnipotent God, because if they did this sort of thing simply would not occur.As a member of the reality based community I am dedicated to believing in anything that is real. If God is real then I will believe. But how am I to determine if God is actually and truly real and which of the thousands of religions it is true one? Turning to your Bible the standard is “You will know them by their fruits.” Clearly the Catholics have failed the “fruit test” because of the pervasive raping of children and the cover up by the Vatican.
As to the rest of religions and independent Christians, Muslims, or other believers, you aren’t going to convert Atheists unless you can show us that God actually has transformed your life in a way that is observable to the reality based world. Even if God can’t be observed directly, if you claim God has changed your life then those changes should be observable in your life and in your religious group as a whole. And if these changes aren’t observable then we in the reality based community aren’t going to listen to what you have to say. If you are going to convert Atheists you are going to have to pass your “Fruit Test” to get our attention.
Yes, a good “logical” argument will always win over the fundies. Your only (Logical) error is in thinking logic has anything to do with religion when it is well established that religion is all about “faith!”
Pick the smallest nit you want==like devout people committing sins==and if you search long enough you will find books written on the subject 400 years ago and more recently.
Nothing new under the sun.
Not well studied myself, I have heard that god/satan put challenges to your faith to test it. Fail only requires repentance and further “honest” commitment.
In the end, every FAIL you logically turn up only reinforces the faith. You and I have 60 years to think up good arguments==religion has had 2000 years for the rebuttal.
But yea–says something when Priest go all human failure. Thats bad. WORSE on orders of magnitude===the power structure enabling it and after several/many decades STILL MAKING NO CHANGES to correct this: married people/women allowed in.
Easy Peasy. Just not doctrinal.
Silly Hoomans.
Does Child Molestation Have Anything To Do With Santa Clause For Adults?
Does π favor apples or cherries?
How many invisible concepts can dance on the head of a pin?
Who is on first!
Never question God’s will.
It proves that many people are jerks. It proves that lonely men forced into celibacy are unnatural. It proves that religions are just a man made institution and are separate from the question of faith or the possibility of a God.
I’ve heard all about the priest perverts molesting children, which is considered newsworthy. There are just as many clergy or religious instructors of other kinds molesting children (often shows up in local newspapers, 6 months ago a Protestant minister in this state was caught playing with pre-teens while both were naked, and was arrested), but there’s not as much in the national news about them.
There’s probably a lot more of this sort of perversity going on (funny uncles, “religious counselors,” etc.) that gets hushed up and doesn’t make the news, simply because it isn’t as sensational.
Marc: Please don’t pretend to call yourself a “realist” while ignoring the massive good the church does around the world. Stuff atheists have no clue how to accomplish. Don’t call yourself a “realist” when faced with the sheer number of God-believers versus the statistically insignificant evil-doers who claim to be Christians. And don’t pretend you know anything about religion if you can completely forget to mention the concept of “the devil” as understood and believed by many religions.
RBG
And ditto for ANY church as it has to do with intimidation, manipulation and control; thus our weakest are subject to the evil prey… as we see again and again and again.
“Religion is violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children.”
– Christopher Hitchens
Better said I think is not possible.
“Religion is a man-made wish, a cause of dangerous sexual repression, and a distortion of our origins in the cosmos.”
Basta!
#5–Floyd==a good reason to focus on the Catholick Church is they are the worlds largest “single leader” organization that is “in place” to prevent such things.
They also have much more NATIONAL political influence than any other ((much smaller)) religious organization.
Sure there are more Protestants==but they are divided up into 9,327 different flavors. Catholics==only ONE!!!!
And as the OP suggests==they are all hypocrits. NO RELIGIOUS PERSON should ever be elected to anything outside of his religion.
WHO DO YOU SERVE?===MAN OR GOD?????
As stated, 2000 years of lipservice has taught them to mouth “render unto Cesar” but that is a crock. Every politician==”if” they were religious could they support abortion laws, capital punishment, lack of healthcare??–no.
So just like pedophile priests, all religious politicians ((except for the one atheist Pete Stark)) is a Stark raving HYPOCRITE right on the surface.
But we all know religion is a crockk, so we let it pass===just like “they are working for us.” Lack of any choice has us were we are.
I want to believe God exists, however, I also want Him/It to believe I exist. With that in mind, organized religion does not add anything to my life or to my relationship with God.
He and I have a one-on-one agreement that has worked fairly well so far. It has kept me honest and its provided the perspective I’ve needed when dealing with questions like, “If God exists, why do bad things happen.”
Ok, so dimwit Mini Pinrkel says because a Catholic molested a child there is no God, because God transforms those that accept him. Has dimwit thought that just perhaps the Catholic didn’t believe in God and just wanted to be close to children. Same reason child molesters try and get into teaching and the Boy Scouts. Just in case dimwit doesn’t understand not everyone that says he’s a Christian really believes, and not everyone that says they believes in Muhammad really does. Not to leave anyone out, not all atheist really know there isn’t a God, they just think they are superior beings acting like God, at least until they die…….then just judgment. March Perkel you really need to see a therapist, just what is it in your past that you did that won’t allow you to come to terms with your creator?
Whatever……………………………….
Traaxx
i see were your going with this.
there a lot of governing factors here.
the pope didn’t even apologies for the cover up.
i with most people when they say a church is just a business model.
your right on mark.
maybe this leads on to why Adam thinks the elites are perverts.
the pope has a lot of silly ideas like not giving condoms to countries rampant with hiv.
the pope is quite clearly a idiot with him narrow minded views and limited real life experience.
Just because someone calls himself/herself a Christian doesn’t mean they truly follow Christ. There are secular men who love their wives and Christian men who beat their wives. The church today is full of error and occultism. It’s full of sin and disease just like the world. If you’re looking for proof of God in men you’re going to be very disappointed. It’s my opinion that the Catholic church is full of occultism. Forbidding priests to marry is unscriptural. So are all the statues and idols they worship (Jesus on the cross and Mary). I’ve stopped trying to convince people that God exists because I can’t. I personally believe He exists because of what I’ve seen and experienced in my own life, but each person has their own journey. Yes, there are hundreds of religions in the world. I think it’s funny that almost all of these other religions use parts of the Bible in their own writings. For example, the Koran uses parts of the Torah and other writings, but don’t be fooled. They are all counterfeits. So, the fact that Catholic priests are raping children just proves that the church is full of occultism and sin, not that God doesn’t exist.
“Who is on first!” Nyuck Nyuck
the believer happy, the doubter wise
I would say raping children would go a long way toward wacking any relationship you might have with God. Yeah.
Wow Traaxx, you’re really living the dream of being a christian and a believer in the WORD of god. You have definitely proven Marc’s point. Go have a child for a snack you dear little christian you!
Going to church doesn’t make you a Christian anymore than standing in a garage makes you a car.
Priests and nuns are vowed to celibacy yet the parishioners can’t use any form of pregnancy prevention. If all catholics become priests or nuns, our problem would be solved in a generation or 2. The bible says to go forth and multiply, I wonder how they missed that? A realistic answer would be nice!
People who call themselves “realists”, remind me of people who always want you to be a “team player”.
As “realists” the tend to live in their own twisted version of reality, and they’re only “team players” when they call the shots and it’s in their benefit.
It seems that Atheists are proselytizing their belief on this blog, more proof that Atheism has become a Religion, just like Scientology.
#10–traxx==ok, taking your position==surely you must agree that there are some truly devoted Catholic Priest who did their righteous thing for a decade or two and then fell off the wagon and landed on a choir boy or girl or gasp, young woman he has formed a close relationship with over the years? So==what about those actual honest to god true believers?
Either your assessment of the problem is circular OR – being a true believer does not actually unite you with god. OR—first you were united with god, and then you weren’t, and then you are again, or not.
As someone stated==religion and its failures don’t disprove god, they just are totally ineffective in offering up a consistent bit of evidence for god.
God is like that. Just like unicorns in that way.
1. Is god everywhere? yes or no.
2. Is he infallible, yes or no.
3. If Father Brady is Ireland should resign for keeping quiet, I saw no sign of god speaking up. Does this not make him as much to blame, for the same reason as Father Brady?
So he either he isn’t everywhere, he does make mistakes, or he kept quiet, not lifting a finger to protect these kids, like kids all over the world.
Athesists raping children = expected
Priests raping children = news
Look at me, I’m in your house, using your “logic”.
I believe that those that SAY they believe should be MORE then I am.
MORE giving.
MORE understanding.
UNDERSTAND how things work, BETTER then I do.
That those beliefs, would spill over into WORK, and running of business and this country, as SO MANY say they are BELIEVERS.
Its not that our country is NOT a religious based theocracy. But that THOSE running this country, or any company, would have the consideration and understanding of a TRUE believer.
If as the Church declares that 90% of the USA is a believer in Christ/god.. AND the bible tells you how to live your life and how to treat others. IF its whats in your HEART, and HOW you live your life.
Did you know in the bible, you can not Charge interest on a loan?
That Christ had a Better TAN, then most of us WHITE FOLK?
That every person has his right, to go to HELL of his OWN accord, in his own way?
Its not that the GOV. needs to be changed..ITS THE PEOPLE RUNNING THE GOV. and BUSINESS.
To my fellow atheists:
I can clear up the issue for you.
The Catholic god is a pedophile. They know it. Now you do too.
That’s all there is to it. They’re that sick.
Good job Marc. That is a well articulated and well reasoned letter. It should send much hate your way, I’m afraid.
There’s a difference between believing in God and attaching yourself to an organized religion.
I believe there is a God because the universe exists. If you think back long enough in time, some force had to create the very first matter.
The problem is with humankind. We are so self important that we can’t imagine a universe in which we are insignificant. We can’t even come to terms with the finality of our inevitable deaths. We get an eternal afterlife. Only the other living creatures die forever.
We are so important that Almighty God himself is unhappy unless we worship him, and in just the right way. We even ascribe gender to Almighty God. I’m sure most ascribe racial characteristics also. (What if She was black?)
Religions pander to human fears, weaknesses and arrogance. They prey upon, and manipulate, their believers to promote organiztional goals.
Worse, they promote tribalism, in the broadest sense of the word. My religion is correct – God said so. Therefore, your way must be wrong. As history has shown over and over, trouble inevitably follows.
To think that Almighty God, the creator of the entire universe gives a damn about you and your insignificant life is utterly ridiculous.
sorry for the typo “organizational”
#24–Hey Rufus==its comments like that that keep me coming back to good ol DU. A fresh take on god that is consistent with the available evidence.
Thank You.
#26–you gotta actually get real and pick a side. Not pretty to bounce back and forth like that.
As much as I dilike responding to you Bobbo, I’ll simplify it for you.
God created the universe but doesn’t give a damn about us. Got it now?
As you describe yourself a realist, I can offer you no convincing argument on the existence of God. You wish to kick the wheels, look under the hood, get behind the wheel and see how it handles. No way can I offer enough proof for this standard.
I will offer this: Do you believe there is life beyond this planet we inhabit? In this great wide universe, do you believe there is intelligent life out there, probably unlike us in too many ways to count?
To follow the realist argument, you cannot believe this without having seen and touched real evidence of this extraterrestrial life.