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What do you think about ObamaCare?
This vote could change the entire country, according to The Wall Street Journal
With the House’s climactic vote on ObamaCare tomorrow, Democrats are on the cusp of a profound and historic mistake, comparable in our view to the Smoot-Hawley tariff and FDR’s National Industrial Recovery Act. Everyone is preoccupied now with the politics, but ultimately at stake on Sunday is the kind of country America will be.
The consequences of this bill will not only be destructive for the health-care system and the country’s fiscal condition, though those will be bad enough. Inextricably bound up in a plan as far-reaching and ambitious as ObamaCare are also larger questions about the role of government, the dynamism of American enterprise and the nature of a free society. Above anything else, this explains why Democrats have had such trouble convincing the public, let alone their own Members.
Once the health-care markets are put through Mr. Obama’s de facto nationalization, costs will further explode. The Congressional Budget Office estimates ObamaCare will cost taxpayers $200 billion per year when fully implemented and grow annually at 8%, even under low-ball assumptions. Soon the public will reach its taxing limit, and then something will have to give on the care side. In short, medicine will be rationed by politics, no doubt with the same subtlety and wisdom as Congress’s final madcap dash toward 216 votes.
As in the Western European and Canadian welfare states, doctors, hospitals and insurance companies will over time become public utilities. Government will set the cost-minded priorities and determine what kinds of treatment options patients are allowed to receive. Medicare’s price controls will be exported to the remnants of the private sector.
Eventually, quality and choice—the best attributes of American medicine in spite of its dysfunctions—will severely decline.
So a vote for ObamaCare is also a vote against the vitality of American capitalism. Business elites have mostly held their tongues, or calculated that they can later dump their health-care liabilities on the government. Yet ObamaCare will lead to much higher levels of taxation across society. The tax wedge—the share of labor costs that never reaches workers but instead goes straight to government—will start flying towards the 50% that prevails today in most of Europe. In America, without the same welfare state obligations, it hovers near 30%.
the WSJ is owned by Murdoch (FOX NEWS).. so it’s hard to believe anything they write about when it comes to politics.
oh yeah.. and this is a great line…
“So a vote for ObamaCare is also a vote against the vitality of American capitalism. ”
Yup.. We saw what happens when capitalism wins… The people lose their houses and we have complete economic failure.
KMFIZ your a moron.
It wasn’t capitalism that caused the crisis, it was Frank, Dodd, CRA and all the government regulation that caused the meltdown. Do you live under a rock?
I’ll agree to ObamaCare under one condition: the millionaire Senators give up their gold-plated health plan and live under the same plan they’ve created for us.
And I don’t even need a ride on Air Force One to agree to this!
I actually live in Western Europe.
Where do you get the idea that “…Insurance companies will become public utilities!.
We in Europe, just like you in the USA pay through the nose for these businesses.
You are right though on one point. Doctors (NOT NURSES)are paid out of the public purse – and very well paid they are.
On the case of nurses.
Nurses were always trained in hospitals, following graduation they had, by contract, to give some years of service to the hospital which trained them. Then, some years ago, this all ceased and the much vaunted ‘privatisation’ fraud took over (although it wasn’t called that then). Nurses graduate, then they put their name down with an agency (which actually contributes absolutely nothing to the service), and that agency in turn finds them a job in a hospital – for which the hospital has to pay the agency a couple of months of the nurses wages as a ‘fee’ for the agency finding a nurse! Accounts for much of health service ‘management’ resources and costs. The problem der reader is that of ‘management’ The expand and expend like a cancer. They contribute little if anything except ‘meetings’ and conferences all the time sucking money from the clinical.
I’m not in a position to judge the positives and negatives of any US medical process (it isn’t a ‘system’ by the way), but I do urge you to watch the management parasites sucking on your tax dollars. We, of course, are doomed.
Right at this moment I’m dealing with an insurance company that is making decisions about my care. My doctor disagrees with those decisions. I’m not sure why having my own government make those decisions would be worse. But at any rate unless you are paying cash for medical care you and your doctor are no longer making the decisions. I guess if I had to choose between the government choosing and a company choosing how to treat me, I prefer the government. My reasoning is the government (in theory at least) is supposed to serve the people but a company serves the bottom line.
DO you understand HOW MUCH medical you are paying now?
You and your employer pay..
STATE SAFETY, workmens comp, STATE medicaid, Federal Medicare..
THEN you pay the insurance corps for FULL TIME medical, and it doesnt even cover dental or EYES.
ALONG with that…
You pay for the Veterans administration MEDICAL.
You also pay for MOST emergency, NON-PAID services, services NOT paid, come out of your pocket also..
YOU ALSO pay for those NICE free places. Thru contributions from CORPS and FEDERAL.
NOW,
Why is this bill complected.
BECAUSE everyone/every state has ADDED their OWN PART.. from a 300 page bill, it has grown to over 3000.
HOW many of the USA workers, work LONG enough at 1 place to get Covered by a company medical plan? 60% DONT GET COVERED.
That 60% is paid from STATE and federal funds..
THEY ARE WORKING..
They work 2 jobs, and NEITHER GIVE ENOUGH HOURS TO HAVE COVERAGE. Both father and mother could BOTH be working 2 jobs, and NOT be covered, and NOT 1 of the kids is covered EITHER..
AND,
this did not start with OBAMA..it start in 1900.
Thermos…you are the moron. Anybody with the brains of a chimpanzee knows that the economic crisis was caused by LACK of regulation. We need more, not less regulation. Like it use to be when interstate banking was basically prohibited.
Everyone is talking about government health care…except the politicians. That is not an option. We have decided in this country, that the profits of CEO’s come before the health of the our citizens. The health care bill will leave most things unchanged…because Obama chickened out.
The US has the WORST health care system of any industrialized nation. Of course a single payer, government run system would be better, just by virtue of the fact that it couldn’t possibly be any worse. However that is not on the table.
If Rush Limbaugh, Glenn, Beck, and Sean Hannity are against it, then I want it! Glenn Beck’s completely mean-spirited, racist, and non-Christian rantings against “social justice” make me sick at my stomach.
As others have stated above, if every other sensible country on the planet has it and it has evidently worked well enough that they are not in the dire financial straits were are in because of it, then there must be something to it. I’ve been to some of those places and people are quite happy with their health care systems. People are not dying in the streets, they have a longer life expectancy than here in the US, meds are cheaper, and they are not lined up at hospitals waiting for care. Need a facelift? Then you might have to wait or go to a private hospital. Get shot? (oh wait, they aren’t obsessed with guns as we are and only have a few murders per year), never mind. Have a heart attack, then you get immediate care instead of having to wait like the Republicans would have us believe. I’ve had it with the repub lies on the subject.
Thermo-
You are a moron. A lot more lead to the financial meltdown than your Fox News talking points.
CRA? GMAC and Countrywide made lots of bad loans. Neither one was/is a bank and not covered at all by the CRA.
Dodd and Frank? Subprime mortgages made up 2% of loans in 1998 and 29% in 2006. Republicans controlled Congress and after 2000, the White House during this time. Where was the oversight? Rating agencies never reviewed the loans that made up the CDO’s that they gave AAA ratings to. In 2004, the FBI testified to the House Financial Services Subcommittee that 80% of mortgage fraud was by “industry insiders”(http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress04/swecker100704.htm). Alan Greenspan came out and testified before Congress that the deregulation that he supported may have been wrong. He didn’t expect the bankers to cut their own throats.
President Reagan pushed for deregulation even as the S&L crisis was in full force. President Clinton got rid of Glass-Steagall. President GW Bush was proud that home ownership swelled during his first term.
The blame is everywhere and does cross party lines.
Remember, you are being lied to.
I am not a US Citizen. I am a Sovereign Citizen of the US. My Straw Man will no longer exist.
End the FED, Take Back your straw man
I know personally (as opposed to what I hear/read on the ‘tubes or some talking head) people who are getting screwed under the current way of doing things. One lady of 35, denied health care coverage because her “pre-existing condition” is that she might get pregnant. Our coverage went up 20% this year, which is mice nuts to some. Why would I call this system a win even from a purely *selfish* perspective,.
I love that this article brings up the C word. It’s like the WSJ’s Godwin Law, i.e. it’s raised to stifle the argument. Capitalism, left unchecked, would turn us into slaves, assays on a P&L account, given the minimum of everything in order to maximize the bottom line. Capitalistic forces, if you take a moment to get off your high horse whenever you suspect something of threatening your Precious, are frightening things if left unchecked and, believe me, it won’t somehow find a social conscience if we leave things the way they are now.
The only thing settled here is that Thermo- is a moron. Remember this bill will take years to roll out, and lawyers are all ready prying holes for big business. There may even be Constitutional questions. A polarized as this country has become, it’s probably as good as it would get. The question about it’s effectiveness is 10 years out. By then there will be even more amendments.
I’m so glad I’m in Canada.
Our banks are heavily regulated, and we have single payer health care.
I have health, a house, and I don’t have to worry about either of them.
Sure, our system has it’s problems too, but wow…just wow.
“Eventually, quality and choice—the best attributes of American medicine in spite of its dysfunctions—will severely decline.” /// What the USA “system” fails on is “access” and when you have no access, you have NO quality and NO choice. With thousands of procedures to measure, sure USA is NO 1 for certain types of advanced cancer care and that is what the spinmeisters say==usa is no one in quality. But EVERY study shows that across the board, USA ranks in the mid to high 30’s. Blaming immigrants and high murder rates might lower that into the 30’s?
We need FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE to our current way of doing things. Obama care is not the end goal, just the start. If this passes, single payer should be 10 years away after it is recognized we can’t pay for the system we are getting, just as we are recognizing NOW we can’t afford the system we have now.
Thermo—puzzle me this: how can “for profit healthcare” EVER produce good results? For Profit: increase profits by limiting access to/delivery of care. YOU do the math.
Herr Speight, good points.
I’m in favor of catastropic coverage for everyone “world wide”, including facial reconstruction for children. And, assembly-line Basic Coverage for everyone too. This should be the government option.
Everyone must have the option to buy insurance if they wish, and the companies should not be protected from anticompetition laws. Any benefit that the company pays towards your medical insurance should be taxed as income (because that’s what it is).
The cost for medicine or a doctor’s visit should be untaxed (credited towards your income, or receive a 15% direct government subsidy to offset the tax paid already on your income).
Any other idea is insanitity.
Sorry, that should have been, “Any benefit that your employer pays towards your medical insurance should be taxed as income (because that’s what it is).”
So now the Government will replace the Insurance companies in making the decision of what type of care you get. If you think that is a better option then god help you. And let’s not forget why the dems and obama want this passed. Once the government is in the business of health care, it will then be able to dictate to you how you live as everything will be labeled a “health issue” even if it has nothing to do with health. It’s all about total government control of how you live your life.
I don’t know what the bill contains at this point.
I just know, I want to move to Norway and be done with this crap hole of a country called the USA.
NO
The WSJ cares about investors. Money is their health package.
At 55 without medical insurance and with three chronic illnesses I do not want to see this pass. I also have two sons that I do not want this bill to force into slavery.
For all the guys who want a free market health system do you want to eliminate Medicare, the VA, and other government run systems?
I’m with Kucinich that this bill is a disappointment compared to what’s needed. But the negatives in the thread above 100% reflect bogus talking points, not the facts. It is sad how easily lies are accepted.
This is exactly the same arguments that were made before many nations adopted universal health care. Now look at how we stack up in 2004 from OECD.
2004 Health care costs:
Nation $Per Capita %GDP %Public Financed
US 6102 15.3 44.7
CA 3165 9.9 69.8
FR 3159 10.5 78.4
AU 3120 9.6 67.5
DE 3043 10.6 76.9
UK 2508 8.1 86.3
IT 2467 8.7 75.1
JP 2249 8.0 81.5
-taken from assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL34175_20070917.pdf page 76
Now riddle me this universal health care fearing citizens of the US, WHY the supposed greatest nation on earth has less then 50% publically financed health care and still pays MORE than any other nation?
And then ask yourself, is this really a good thing to be wasting that much on so little?
Now, all the Obamaites, ask yourself WHY his people are not showing chart after chart on this to hammer home the point?
Finally to all those slack-jawed, publically educated US fools. If the gubermint is so bad at providing public goods and services, then start digging for your OWN water, growing your OWN food, make your OWN power, build your OWN roads and bridges, provide your OWN police, fire and rescue services and set your OWN time standards.
Because all of those and many more are services the gubermint provides for your daily lives. So if they are NO GOOD, stop using them.
Personally I like taking a shower in clean water. Eat food that has been deemed fit and having my home and business protected from fire by these gubermint sponsored entities.
THAT IS WHAT I PAY TAXES FOR!
Cursor_
If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em.
Expect to see me on your death panel, fuckers.
As usual, Murdoch and WSJ are full of shit
Thermo: You are the one living under a rock.
What caused the economic meltdown was pure capitalistic greed in the “investment banks,” like B of A and other mismanaged banking companies, giving themselves bonuses to the point that those firms bled away all of their capital. More regulation might have saved these firms, actually.
I feel like most of the people here have no idea what’s in the bill. It is not (unfortunately) government take over of healthcare -far from it.
At its core, it requires people to buy insurance from private insurance companies (expanding the number of customers for insurance companies – why exactly are they against it?) and if they can’t afford to buy it it it subsidizes their insurance. It puts into place a bunch of regulations that prevents insurance companies from denying people coverage.
That’s the core of it. There’s nothing in there about the government making decisions about the quality and type of your healthcare. There’s nothing in there about death panels. There’s nothing in there about the government directly supplying your health care.
I’d say 98% of *all* of the negative commentary directed towards this relatively innocuous bill is based on incorrect assumptions, fueled primarily by healthcare lobbies who have funneled their money into big conservative media companies. Rational critique of this bill is very hard to find, because most people who actually know what is in the bill agree that, while flawed, this bill is a tiny step in the right direction.
I support death panels. With out the death panels this bill is useless…
This is little more than more corporate welfare. Instead of attacking the problem of why healthcare is so expensive they are simply feeding the industry more money.
However, I guess this is better than not passing anything. There are some things in the bill that will do some good like the provision about children with pre-existing conditions and allowing children to stay on their parents’ insurance longer.