We’re no different. With all the talk about the underwear bomber and other terrorists, is there any serious discussion about why terrorists want to attack us? Could it be things like taking their oil, having the CIA teach torture tactics to friendly tyrants, imposing our values, starting wars and so on?
The question we have to ask ourselves is this: If anybody treated us like we’re treating the people in Gaza, what would we do?
We don’t want to go there, do we? And because we don’t, we make it our business not to see, hear or think about how, indeed, we are treating the people in Gaza.
All these shocked dignitaries, all these reports, these details, these numbers – thousands of destroyed this and tens of thousands of destroyed that. Rubble, sewage, malnutrition, crying babies, humanitarian crises – who can keep up? Who cares? They did it to themselves. Where to for lunch?
IT’S NOT that we can’t imagine life in Gaza. It’s that we are determined not to try to imagine. If we did, we might not stop there. Next we might try to imagine what it would be like if our country were in the condition in which we left Gaza. And sooner or later we might try to imagine what we would do if we were living over here like they’re living over there.
Or not even what we would do, just what we would think – about the people, about the country, that did that to us and that wouldn’t even allow us to begin to recover after the war was over. That blockaded our borders and allowed in only enough supplies to keep us at subsistence level, to prevent starvation and mass epidemics.
#62 Yes, as I mentioned in #33, we solved our problem in the USA with genocide. Are you suggesting that’s the solution for Israel?
Is your solution to tell the Palestinians, “tough sh*t, they conquered you, life sucks for you”. If so, you can understand how they would take that badly and engage in all kinds of terrorism. In that case, the war would only be over when one side had totally exterminated the other. That certainly is one solution, I’m not sure it’s the best one. And it ironically puts the Jews in the position of the ones committing genocide.
#63 Yes, homelands for both seems to be the best idea, theoretically. So much bad blood now, don’t know if that’s possible.
#66
What genocide was that? AFAIK, Native Americans from a large number of tribes still exist and control larges swaths of land.
> Yes, homelands
> for both seems to
. be the best idea,
> theoretically.
Israel has tried on multiple occasions to give land to the Palestinians to govern on their own. They have responded to that by attacking Israel. The problem is that Palestinians will not accept anything less than the entirety of Jerusalem and if possible all of modern day Israel.
#66 Is your solution to tell the Palestinians, “tough sh*t, they conquered you, life sucks for you”
Yes, precisely! What makes their specific horror different than everybody else? The 20th century was wall-to-wall nasty stuff. As bad as the Palestinian(common, incorrect usage) experience is for them, it is merely a pinprick in the overall ugly tableau.
#67 Thomas, what you don’t seem to accept is that the Palestinians think the Jews stole their homeland. Until you understand that, your “solutions” are useless. Perhaps you think like Chris, that the Palestinians should just accept being driven off the land they used to live in? Would you?
What genocide was that? AFAIK, Native Americans from a large number of tribes still exist and control larges swaths of land.
Um, I don’t know how to break this to you, but the Native Americans used to control all of America. Now their population is a fraction of what it used to be, and they’re in reservations. WTF are you talking about?
From what smartalix, chris, and Thomas have said, it looks like the solution that several people are proposing here is that they just keep fighting until one side is exterminated. Some solution.
Yes, precisely! What makes their specific horror different than everybody else? The 20th century was wall-to-wall nasty stuff. As bad as the Palestinian(common, incorrect usage) experience is for them, it is merely a pinprick in the overall ugly tableau.
OK, but can you understand that they’re not just going to lay down and accept it? Would you? Their horror isn’t a pinprick to them.
#70 Um… gee. Thanks for your valuable contributions to this blog, little pedro.
#66 Not sure what you mean.
There is a good chance of a down cycle in violence soon. If internal problems in Iran continue then Hamas will not be able function at the same level. Much of what they do is social services, which is why they were able to compete against the PA. If those services dry up the Palestinians are going to be less apt to continue putting up a high level of violence.
#69 America’s foreign adventures are ideologically and financially enriching for some groups of our electorate. Britain, France and Russia get buzzed because it reminds them of empires gone by. Israel’s situation is a matter of survival. That’s the difference for me. If the US made a strong move to demilitarize we would be in a much better long term position to compete. Israel would be overrun.
From an outside cost-benefit analysis I see no upside of giving the Arab Palestinians anything. The supposed benefit, for everyone, would be a cessation of violence if there were two states. Problem is, who would you give that land to? Hamas is a regional movement, hard to argue they would be loyal only to their local constituents. Other potential PNA leaders are ineffectual and don’t enjoy enough popular support.
There is exactly no evidence that Arab Palestinians could or would exercise a monopoly of violence in their lands. There is also no evidence they would be willing to outsource that job to the Israelis.
So it will continue.
#67
> Thomas, what you don’t
> seem to accept is that
> the Palestinians think
> the Jews stole their
> homeland
And the Jews make the same claim about the Palestinians. Hitler claimed that Czechoslovakia was part of Germany. Did that given him the right to occupy it? The only way any progress will be made is to end that argument and work towards a solution that gives the Jews and Palestinians their own country. The problem is that whenever that has been tried the Palestinians have fostered terrorists attacks on Israel. Until the Palestinians demonstrate that they can police their own people, they’ll never have a country of their own.
> but the Native Americans
> used to control all of America.
Hate to break it to you but conquering is not the same as genocide. The primary reason their population is a fraction of what it used to be is that they had no resistance to European diseases.
As has been said multiple times, who was there first is irrelevant. The real question is what are people doing with what they have? Right now, I see no evidence that the Palestinians want to do what is necessary to have a country of their own.
# 61 Lefties love to attack Israel for some reason.
Actually, the difference is that liberals don’t blindly support Israel like wingnuts do. And given their black-and-white mentality, wingnuts think that anyone who doesn’t 100% agree with them must 100% disagree with them. Thus, wingnuts think liberals hate Israel.
Us liberals just think there’s fault on both sides. And that’s shades of gray that you wingnuts just can’t tolerate.
#74 Not that anyone’s reading this thread any more, but spare us the pompous BS about “terrorism”. The Israelis committed terrorist acts back when they were trying to form the state of Israel. That was in the 40s. The Palestinians were there before that. That’s why they think the Jews took their country. The Jews have no such similar claim. They had a country there thousands of years ago?
As has been said multiple times, who was there first is irrelevant. The real question is what are people doing with what they have?
Complete and utter BS. You wouldn’t be saying that if it was you being driven off your land.
Yes, it looks like the wingnuts are in favor of continued war in the middle east.
#75
>> As has been said multiple
>> times, who was there first
>> is irrelevant. The real
>> question is what are people
>> doing with what they have?
> Complete and utter BS. You
> wouldn’t be saying that if
> it was you being driven off
> your land.
There is no end to such a justification for violence. By that reckoning, the Mexicans are free to conduct terrorist attacks against the US since CA used to be part of Mexico. The Italians are free to attack the French since that used to be part of the Roman empire. Britain is open to attacking northern France since that used to be part of Britain and so on. This is akin to the problems in the South with family feuds that span generations. It’s time to put an end to that nonsense.
If the Palestinians really want peace, they have to demonstrate that they are willing to police their own people. They have to stop justifying terrorism just because they feel they are on the losing side of a land dispute. Until they show they really want to put an end to the violence, the violence will continue and they’ll likely be on the losing side.
If anyone is a wingnut in favor of violence it is you. You are the one justifying terrorism on behalf of the Palestinians. Either you want to stop terrorism or do not. Which is it?