“No god? … No problem!” reads the advertisement featuring the smiling faces of people wearing Santa Claus hats. “Be good for goodness’ sake.”
Over the next two weeks, 270 of the ads will go up on city buses and trains in the Washington area as part of the holiday kickoff to campaigns sponsored by secular groups in cities around the country and abroad. If last year was any indication, the signs are likely to spark a theological war of words.
“We don’t intend to rain on anyone’s parade, but secular people celebrate the holidays, too, and we’re just trying to reach out to our people,” said Roy Speckhardt, the executive director of the American Humanist Association. “To the degree that we are reaching out to the godly, it’s just to say that you can be good without god…”
Elsewhere, this year’s secular signs vary in tone.
In Seattle, this year’s signs say “Millions are good without God.” In Las Vegas, signs to be put up this week will say “Reasons Greetings” and “Yes, Virginia … there is no God…”
The campaigns come against a backdrop of a growing number of nonbelievers. Fifteen percent of Americans identified themselves as having “no religion” in a 2008, up from 8 percent in 1990, according to a study by the Program on Public Values at Trinity College in Hartford.
Overdue.
#93, Cursor,
Word origins should not attach themselves to current meanings. Otherwise I would be asking why Christians celebrate Christmas on the Tenth Month of the year. This year Christians celebrate the birth of their god on Freya’s Day, the Norse Goddess in charge of fornication.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,
OvenMaster said, on December 2nd, 2009 at 4:33 pm
“#60: Benjamin, for twelve solid years of catholic education, the nuns drilled into me that I have to earn heaven by good works AND faith in Jesus AND not have a soul tainted by unforgiven mortal sin.”
Martin Luther had the same problem with the Catholic Church. He taught justification by faith alone. This is a different Martin Luther than the one that did the “I have a dream” speech.
#88-fpp2002-so many of the world’s conflicts are due to wars started by people who believe their imaginary friend is better than someone else’s imaginary friend.
No doubt the world is a crazy place when it comes to my deity is better than your deity.
The winner of the deity cage match comes down to one important point. Out of all the contending deities, only one real person proved to have the right stuff by snuffing it and then coming back to life.
If only video existed at the time, but there were witnesses that noticed and took the time to write it down.
So, we get Christmas because Christ performed the only deity-type action that no other contender could even imagine and therefore wins the deity wars.
Why He did it is even more intriguing, but you get the point.
Merry Christmas.
#96 Dr Dodd said “Out of all the contending deities, only one real person proved to have the right stuff by snuffing it and then coming back to life.”
Seriously dude, that’s nothing special. Managing the Cubs to a World Series? Now that would be a miracle.
#96, Dr. Dudd,
So, some grave robbers came and took the body of Jesus. Hhmmm, and for that you think he came alive again?
Sheet, if he was omnipotent, why would he need to move the rock in order for his corporeal body to go to heaven when only your souls go there?
Why did he “die” on the cross if he is eternal?
Why did Jesus think his father had forsaken him?
Why couldn’t the guy write down some of his simple teachings so there wouldn’t be any discussion BEFORE he pissed off the powers that be?
The best answers to all these whys is a simple “because the story is bullsheet!!!”.
It doesn’t hurt me that you want to praise some alien being for creating the heavens and the earth. (where is heaven again?) Your ignorance has been well documented in your other posts.
#97-Mr Fussion
Grave robbers? You mean they walked Him around like a Weekend at Bernie’s movie.
You crack me up.
@88 and @89
Thank you so much for moving an honest discussion forward by saying I believe in fairy tales. And by telling me my belief in the Lord my God is nothing more than that of a child’s belief in Santa Claus.
As a 17 year old who truly showed up to this discussion with no animosity towards you as individuals or what you believe. You’ve really helped me understand your position.
Yes. I believe in God. I bow before him every morning and night. I pray for this nation and those around the world. i pray for the salvation of people like you two. I do believe those who do not accept him as savior will be cast into the depths of hell. However, I understand your unbelief. So, I am open to discourse. And I won’t condemn that very disbelief. All I would like is for you to show half of the respect I would show to both of you.
#96 Dr Dodd, you see, this is part of the problem. You believe your prophet is better than everyone else’s. Never mind the fact that these so-called eyewitnesses (and eyewitness accounts are horribly unreliable) didn’t write anything about Jesus until about 70 years after his birth. Stories get twisted pretty quickly when it’s all based on verbal stories passed down through the years. Besides, all the myths of Christ are pretty much recycled from earlier religions (ability to walk on water, heal the sick, rise from the dead, etc).
#99 Eric. For a 17 year old, you are pretty smart and level headed. I only wish more religious people were as open about these types of discussions. I have respect for religious folk for the most part, because I used to be one. Where I lose that respect is where they start to tell me they’re better than me, and when they try to act as morality police and tell me what I can and cannot do, based on some ancient book of highly questionable origin.
When I was 17 I was religious too. However, over time, as I read about history, science and human psychology, I gradually realized how much religion is based on wishful thinking and not a shred of verifiable scientific proof. And when I became an atheist it was an overwhelming sense of peace. Maybe you’ll follow that path someday too.
Folks, this is no time to bring up religion. It’s Christmas!
#96
> The winner of the deity
> cage match comes down to
> one important point. Out
> of all the contending deities,
> only one real person proved
> to have the right stuff by
> snuffing it and then coming
> back to life.
Check. And Superman must be better than Batman because he came from another planet and can fly, right? The “important” point you present is just as imaginary and frankly not that impressive in the world of supernatural tricks. “Dying” and coming back to life had been done numerous times in numerous other mythologies. Prometheus having his liver torn out every day only to have it regenerate is pretty creative and impressive considering the duration of the pain. I’m not sure how long Prometheus is on the rock but we definitely get the impression that it is longer than a couple of days.
#100-Mr Fussion-eyewitnesses didn’t write anything about Jesus until about 70 years after his birth.
The people He associated with on a daily basis recorded the events. How much closer eyewitnesses do you require?
#102-Thomas-Superman, Batman, Prometheus.
Your argument might warrant a bit more thought if you would not use fictional characters in your examples.
#103, Dr Dodd: sorry, the earliest of the gospels was written about 70 AD, and most of them were written between 70 AD and 100 AD. There are no surviving historical accounts of Jesus written when he was alive or within 30 years of his death. Besides, no matter what was written when, that doesn’t make it any more true.
And Thomas’ analogy of Superman and Batman versus Jesus are perfectly apt, as Jesus is mostly a mythological creation. The man himself may have actually lived and died in the time survived, but to have all the powers the bible claims he had? Yeah, right.
#103, Dr. Dudd,
I didn’t write #100, but …
The people He associated with on a daily basis recorded the events. How much closer eyewitnesses do you require?
Someone independent and a little closer to the time it happened, not a few decades after the fact.
I did some card tricks for my family when I was a kid. They didn’t pick up the trick either. Does that qualify me for godhood?
#102-Thomas-Superman, Batman, Prometheus.
Your argument might warrant a bit more thought if you would not use fictional characters in your examples.
What makes you think they are fictitious? Do you have any proof Thor or Woden didn’t exist? Quite a few people think Manitou created the world; they even named many places after him. Superman does have his own book. And several months are still names after the Roman Gods.
Can you produce any evidence that your Jehovah exists and isn’t fictional?
Dr. Dudd,
Still waiting
#105-Mr Fussion-Can you produce any evidence that your Jehovah exists and isn’t fictional?
He must because of how much the possibility irritates you.
When you don’t believe multiple eyewitness accounts that are amazingly consistence even with the time you hold up as an obstacle then all I can say is too bad MSNBC wasn’t there for you.
And yet you believe the hoax about man-made global warming. Go figure.
Dr Dodd, I’m confused. It sounds like you’re arguing over which Pez tastes most like Middle Earth.
#108-qb-It sounds like you’re arguing over which Pez tastes most like Middle Earth.
The light green one.
#197–Dr Dodd==not an opthamologist are you. Aye-Witless==the most unreliable type of evidence (aka not proof) allowed into court. Not well respected when not contemporaneous etc.
“Proof” goes to something being REPLICATED!!!!! Nothing to do with repetition of aye-witless reports.
More importantly though is the logical inconsistency of all religions. They have to create a god that is all powerful and all knowing and then just can’t square that circule with god being all good as well, and if he isn’t all good, then why worship him?
And that finally raises my moniker==lets take god being everything anyone might say he is, the question remains, why worship him? AND why not let hoomans disagree and choose not to worship? A far less important question, why punish someone who merely disagrees?
Most intelligent, caring, honest, informed religious types ultimately answer the same thing to all religious questions: “Its a Mystery.”
And when everything you think/believe about a subject is a mystery, what do you really have??????
Heh, heh. Stoopid Hoomans.
But WHAT ABOUT THE KIDDIES?????
#99–Eric is already lost to us. Maybe his hormones will kick in, or he will find out he is gay, and he will get another shot at his world view. I comment because I just can’t get enough of his good christian love: “I do believe those whcast into the depths of hell. Howevo do not accept him as savior will be er,…. I won’t condemn that very disbelief.”
And the fillip: “All I would like is for you to show half of the respect I would show to both of you.” Yea verily, no one needs to be a soul condemning ass-hole when you got god in your corner providing cover.
In a way, I envy Eric. So much room for incredible personal growth. Don’t we all envy potential?
#111–Erratum, as I do believe it was the browser interface fubaring: ”
I do believe those who do not accept him as savior will be cast into the depths of hell. However, …… I won’t condemn that very disbelief.”
The perfection of the hypocrisy should not be lost in the human/cyber interface.
#110-bobbo-Witness==the most unreliable type of evidence.
I laugh because this is more of a court situation than you probably realize. Putting that aside there are events in life you are not likely to ever forget. I dare say the experiences of our “witnesses” fall into the same category.
The amount of consistency between our multiple witnesses through time and distance helps confirm their statements. Therefore to dismiss them for prejudice sake is not logical.
#113, Dr Dodd, you act as if the testimony of the witnesses, of which there is none outside of the bible, and which was written decades after the death of Jesus, hasn’t been altered or edited or re-edited or translated or re-translated over the years. So many people were involved in the writing and editing and translating of the bible that it is the greatest story ever mangled.
Let’s say for the sake of argument their testimony is perfectly consistent…which it never is…that STILL doesn’t prove Jesus had the powers the bible claims he did. You think magicians have real powers? Lots of people see them do incredible things. That doesn’t make the magician a god.
Eric Morris
Like I said, I can respect you, but not your bat shit belief that tells you “those who do not accept him as savior will be cast into the depths of hell” Just that belief alone, belies your and your faith’s arrogance.
As an atheist I can no more claim there is no god any more that you can claim there is. The difference is, my lack of belief is based that so far there has been no real, hard, empirical, evidence to support the existence of A god, let alone a judeo-christian one, so I go about my life not worrying about some guy-in-the-sky passing judgment on me, the same way I don’t worry about fairies, leprechauns, unicorns, etc.
You on the other hand, absolutely claim there is a god, with no evidence what so ever and insist those who don’t believe will suffer. Based on what, some extremely questionable holy books? Again, who is the arrogant one here?
#114–Dr Dodd==well I chose to stop short of beating the horse by not adding that aye-witless testimony in the bible, unlike the courtroom, is not subject to foundational elements, cross-examination, witness evaluation and so forth.
But I am more interested right now in fpp’s question. We have all witnessed Chris Angel walk thru glass, rip people in half, etc and its even “on film.” And when I say “more interested,” that acknowledges you, Benji, Eric, et al, are staying away from the main issue as already stated. Why worship what you cannot understand?—and should not agree with if you ever did?
Punishing people for mere disagreement—why do that?
#115-fpp2002-you act as if the testimony of the witnesses, of which there is none outside of the bible, and which was written decades after the death of Jesus…
To put it in your terms, a bible is a history book. A history book is written not only decades after the fact, but centuries. Does this make it any more unreliable?
Are the stories of Homer and the philosophy of Aristotle lies because of their age?
So you see your argument is weak in design and your intent is strong in prejudice.
#118, Dr. Dodd, no one is claiming Homer and Aristotle have supernatural powers. If they were, you can be sure their history would be checked a lot more carefully, and the person(s) claiming that they had supernatural powers had better be in possession of extraordinary proof. No one has that for the bible.
And yes, history books are FULL of errors! I study World War II for example, which happened less than 70 years ago. There are many, many, many examples of inconsistent eyewitness accounts, wrong dates, wrong events, wrong people, wrong outcomes, wrong conclusions. Historians argue ALL the bloody time. And so do Shakespeare scholars…they can’t agree on what he meant, and he wrote IN ENGLISH!
My wife is a lawyer, and she can tell ya how much so-called eyewitness testimony breaks down under rigorous cross-examination. A group of 4 RCMP officers tasered a Polish immigrant in the Vancouver airport a few years ago, killing him, and they all gave startingly consistent testimony UNDER OATH. Turns out it was all bullshit, and they had colluded together to get their stories straight. Look up the Braidwood Inquiry.
So yes, your bullshit eyewitness testimony is just that…bullshit.
#119-fpp2002-So yes, your bullshit eyewitness testimony is just that…bullshit.
OK then, I guess you win?
Come on Dr Dodd, the whole my God has bigger thing than your God is pretty weak. Same with the whole rise from the dead thing (at least 30 people did that in US last year – seriously), the eyewitness accounts argument (Mary Magdelaine stories vary wildly from gospel to gospel), and the numbers game (non-Christians are 2:1 over Christians and increasing everyday).
There are way better arguments for your beliefs (I’m not going to make it too easy for you) than this line.
Xmas = Peak Judeo-Christian Buying Season !!! Christmas, Chanukah, New Years, etc … (Retailers finally pass into the BLACK – out of the RED – in the shopping frenzy on Turkey Day + 1 ! The Business of America is Business !
Somewhere I saw the term “Giftmas” starting to appear. And no doubt that will be replacing Xmas someday. As “X” still refers to somebody’s name, signed as a X. Or it’s a tilted cross. And “mas” still refers to something religious. But even devil worshipers have “mass”es. So I guess it’s Ok to retain that part of the name Christmas.
What you won’t be seeing anytime in the future, are terms like Gift-Hannaka or Gift-Kwanza. Apparently there is at least one made up minority religion that’s too sacred to screw with.
But the Urban Dictionary has some other examples.
http://urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hannaka