Since our current system doesn’t work what with continually rising costs that are unsustainable, millions uninsured, the country’s financial health in bad shape and on and on, what should we do? With so many aspects and facets to the problem to consider, which ones are most important?
From minor tweaks to scrapping it all and starting over, where do you stand?
Look at the question from two perspectives. First, what would you do if you could wave a magic wand and start over without politicians being involved? In other words, the health care system of your dreams.
Second, given where we are and the idiotic political realities of the US these days, what are the politically and monetarily feasible changes to what we now have that you would like to see?
I live in England, I like the way it works here. I’ve been healthy all my life but I know plenty who haven’t and they have all been treated pretty well.
What I’d like to understand is how wealthy does a US citizen have to be for a reasonably ordinary event not to be financially crippling.
For reasonably ordinary I’m thinking broken arm or leg; Glandular fever (mononucleosis) the sort of non-self inflicted, non avoidable damage or illness that could happen to anyone at any time.
The impression I’ve got (from the reformers side) is that bills mount up at (multi) thousands per day is that wrong?
#32–Animby==you made the right choice. But yes, millionaire docs are appropriate only IN America==not FROM America.
And the million dollars really is just a counterpoint to the free market system so lauded here wherein presumably poor people would pay their charitably minded docs in chickens and potatoes just like in the good old days.
No, government reimbursement has lead to docs becoming the highest paid profession. I don’t even disagree with that, its ACCESS and PROVISION of needed services that are the nub this decade.
Hah, hah. I’d love to hear what LOSER thinks is the regulatory scheme that has healthcare so controlled??? Don’t even need to say that the Repugs and Charlatans gut regulatory enforcement when they can’t get outright no regulations to begin with. Acts like there was no financial crises in the unregulated debt/swap market in 2008 at all.
Remarkable Blind Spot. Spot Defined: Your entire field of vision.
Dolts.
#37
so say you want to have a baby in the states… Even if you have insurance, you are looking at a 25-50k dollar bill. Now I realize we are currently in hyper inflation, but still that has to work out to 200-300 pounds.
It has resulted in a situation where unless you are a banker, having even a single child causes you to be in poverty. To the point that 80% of American children will be on welfare at some point in their life.
Additionally we have a social movement that thinks this is not only an acceptable state of affairs but is even desirable. Makes for a good all volunteer army don’t cha know.
Think potato famine. That is where we are as a nation. In the past when this happened. So while we are not yet as bad as darfour or Bosnia in the 90’s we are getting there. Civil war is just around the corner here. We are gonna make the soviet break up look neat and orderly.
#39? Huh? 25-30K for a delivery!?!?! Even with the 90/10 insurance model many of us have, we’re looking at 2-4K at most for a normal 3 day delivery. We’ve got gross problems, but the system’s not THAT broke.
Now, have a kid WITHOUT insurance, and that figure is more likely. That’s why a public option is so important.
Insurance should cover the big expenses, cancer, organ failure, etc.
The day-to-day checkups and ellective medicines should come right out of the sick person’s pocket.
Do you submit a claim to your car insurance company if you get a ding?
First, even if we restart from scratch, the fundamental rules of supply and demand are still going to apply. If the government artificially caps the price of a good or service, the supply will drop (Lookup the problems with the supply of geriatricians these days). If the government takes over an industry so that there is a single supplier and demand remains the same, prices will go up. What keeps us from being charged a million dollars for a bottle of soda? It isn’t the humanitarian nature of business owners; it is competition. Competition is what keeps prices down. So, if I could wave my magic wand, I’d ensure that any insurance company can insure any person in any State. I’d require that all insurance rates be posted to a Department of Insurance and that insurance companies provide rates for a standard basket of services so that individuals could compare plan costs. I’d provide vouchers for low income individuals so that they could purchase a plan and I’d not let insurance companies deny individuals for pre-existing conditions. Lastly, I’d add caps to medical lawsuit settlements. The only other action I’d suggest is one for which I’m not sure exactly how it could be done. I’d find a way of having insurance companies sell to individuals and not corporations.
Amazingly, these sorts of changes could be done now so it answers both questions.
Cancel all insurance and have doctors accept cash only. The price of medical care will drop like a rock. People will only go to the doctor when absolutely needed, unlike today where medicine is viewed as a free RIGHT by many. Why aren’t new cars a right? Or food? Or housing?
The biggest problem with healthcare at this point is our Rich Uncle Sam, promises to provide FREE healthcare to large parts of the population. Like any good moneygruber, the doctors and other healthcare providers take advantage and charge as much as they possibly can.
The next biggest problem in healthcare is doctors are trained to aggressively use the latest and greatest medicines and tools without consideration of cost, or strangely enough outcomes. Healthcare education must change. It’s no wonder over half the middle aged doctors in my area are of foreign origin because they know the system will pay virtually any bill submitted.
Finally, there must be some constraint over Doctors charging for essentially not service. A doctor I had neveer seen before dropped by my dad’s room at the hospital. A month later a bill for over $200 for a doctors visit came through. A month after that, he was paid by secure horizons $80 after the excess above medicare allowed was disallowed. Literally a 5 minute social call. What CRAP. Dig deep enough and discover the problem with health care is none other than the doctors, who have learned to play the game of the current system. The insurance companies only enable it because they can’t disallow ridiculous charges.
#17
It is amazing how liberals still fail to understand the fundamentals of supply and demand. If you restrict the supply, price will go up assuming demand remains the same. If a single payer system is so great, then implement it in your State and let’s see how it goes. Until at least one State puts in a working single payer system that does not bankrupt the State, no one will accept the argument that it is a good idea to do it at the Federal level.
> Second, no amount of free market
> reform will fix healthcare, because that is
> how the insurance companies make money.
> They charge you as much as they can
> then they deny you care. As for
> profit enterprises that is their imparitive.
Are you saying that a government system will not try to minimize costs and increase revenue through higher tax rates? Oh, that’s right, they will. The difference is that when the government runs a system and it sucks, you still have to pay for it.
1) Single payer.
there is no #2
#41, Bingo.
People have gotten so used to the idea that insurance should cover the “oil change” that anything less than that is unacceptable.
A six month dental checkups costs $70.
A three month oil change costs $65 (synthetic oil, big engine, etc.).
Why should the dental checkup be “free?”
#44, Thomas,
Are you saying that a government system will not try to minimize costs and increase revenue through higher tax rates?
Yes, they will, as they should, minimize costs. Everyone knows there is a huge amount of waste in the system no one cares to control.
As for higher taxes, I fail to see them being any higher than what is currently spent on health care. The highest per capita in the world.
Stop having insurance pay for every health care cost, and instead be like life insurance. You hope you don’t have to cash it in.
#41 – I could live with this. Otherwise, scrap the whole thing.
So we have more support for the proven failures of primary care physicians… Which are used as a red herring to support the idea that people should pay for it them selves.
Lol.
Here is my primary care cost cutting procedure. In stead of people seeing a doctor once every six months one on one, we put everybody in a local school gym and have a doctor come in and tell them to quit smoking, eat better, get more exercise etc.
On the way out the door we have a blood drive where we log your vital stats and do propflactic bloodwork.
There more primary care physician red herring, oh and you have better primary care that way as well.
But this is America and we shake our fists angrily at facts.
#50, I am not sure what facts you are shaking your fists at.
Do you not agree the health industry is the most regulated in the country?
If it isn’t, where is all the federal money spent on it going?
For people who think eliminating insurance company profits with single payer or public option, will pay for everyone’s health care, could you please tell me how much are insurance company profits?
I don’t know the insurance company profits, however I do know we spend 14% of our GDP on healthcare while… England only spends 7% and that English guy in here earlier, the idea of paying for health care seemed alien to him.
So the health insurance industry profits and overpayments to their executives is about 7% of GDP.
Anyone wanna guess how many of the countries with single payer pay about half what we do? All of them.
#53, I want a smokin-hot, red-headed Dr. Crusher in Sick Bay who can wave a wand over my ass when I’m sick and fix me, and I just walk in.
Me, too! Unfortunately, Star Fleet doesn’t exist yet.
So where do we start? United States Declaration of Independence states that “Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” is an “Unalienable right”. Having this “right to life” should, more importantly in my opinion, extend to those outside the womb. We band together in organized societies & create governments for many reasons, such as building roads and crossing rivers and protecting land from invaders. Why would be have so LITTLE compassion for our fellow man as to NOT band together to SAVE LIFES by providing proper healthcare to all of our citizens?
There is nothing to stop you from doing that. Get together as many citizens as you want and start handing it out if you want. I’m not going to stop you.
However, Unalienable means it can’t be taken away. You are taking someone else’s property when you force a tax at the barrel of a gun to help someone else. What about THEIR right to life and the fruits of their labor?
The man who wrote the Declaration of Independence had this to say on his 2nd inaugural address:
“[Our wish is to ensure]…equality of rights maintained, and that state of property, equal or unequal, which results to every man from his own industry, or that of his fathers.” [bold added]
Thomas Jefferson
He knew people would not end up equal.
If you are going to quote the Declaration of Independence, you should know what it is about first. The best place to learn that is to read the man who wrote it.
So by liberty Jefferson was talking about owning slaves and a mans right to rape women…
maybe Hitler, Stalin, or George Bush can offer more recent gems of wisdom?
I want none of the liberty you are selling dude.
Do you suppose he raped that slave of his at the point of a gun?
#56
So, are you saying that everything that Jefferson did or said is forfeit because he owned slaves? I suppose that’s also true for Washington.
#57, Thomas,
What Postman is saying is that just because some one says something, don’t take it at just face value. Put the whole thing in context. Liebertarians are infamous for taking small pieces of quotes and denying others made by the same person.
How someone be the arbitrator of “liberty” when they purposely denied that same “liberty” to others? And not just blacks. Even when Jefferson was Governor of Virginia, only those worth so much were allowed to vote.
#55, Loser,
However, Unalienable means it can’t be taken away. You are taking someone else’s property when you force a tax at the barrel of a gun to help someone else. What about THEIR right to life and the fruits of their labor?
Since when has the right of ONE person ever take precedent over the rights of society as a whole?
Tax collection has been a problem ever since the first group got together. In the beginning those who refused to contribute were kicked out of the tribe to die in the wilderness. Today, we will allow you to leave but don’t keep claiming ownership to part of the society you deny. If you wish to remain a part of society great. Just contribute as per what society claims you owe. If you don’t want to be part of our society, don’t claim you are part of it.
We already know why you hate America. You won’t be missed. I bet your mother will cheer.
#58
It is a poster child ad hominemn to dismiss Jefferson’s notions of liberty simply because he owned slaves. We can extrapolate Jefferson’s ideas of liberty, which we all admit in his time only applied to free men, to all men and woman today and therefore his ideas about liberty are as relevant to everyone today as they were then to free men.
We can take what Jefferson did say in LibertyLover’s post, remove the prejudice of it applying only to free men and the sentiment still stands. Inherently, people will have different results (the state of their property) based on their talent and effort even if equal rights are maintained.
People who think Dr. Crusher is hot shouldn’t be deciding anything about health care.
#60
nope. It was common for slave owners to “put down” slaves that became sick or I’ll. That means Thomas Jefferson was probably also a cold blooded murderer exactly like Hitler and Stalin. Morally he is no different and shares a place in hell with them. After all he was a slaver, he shares guilt with them of the worst possible crimes.
But it also makes Thomas Jefferson uniquely irrelevant in any debate about healthcare. You know, because he murdered people because they were sick.
So just like america grew and put slavery behind it, it can also grow and make health care a right.
At the point of a gun if need be. With the bloody deaths of half a million people if need be.
#59 Well said, Mr Fusion, I couldn’t have put it any better. 🙂 Libertarians are whining soreheads who don’t want to pay their share.
Go create your libertarian paradise somewhere else, LL. Or accept that taxes are the dues we pay for civilization. If you live in America you can’t help but benefit from what all our tax dollars pay for. If you don’t want to pay taxes, then stop taking what they pay for and get the hell out. Have some integrity, for god’s sake.
#62–Postman==I’m all for your iconoclastic viewpoint even though I think the real issue is much more mundane that by coinkiedink is often exhibited by Liberty Loser – BUT – you go from a group generality about slavers even saying only that Jeffereson “probably” put down slaves but you go on to form conclusions based on assuming that he did?
Thats just poor form. Very much like a slaver yourself.
I can’t believe that nobody has yet stated the obvious;
Some people are nothing but a burden on society and should not be saved.
Give me a healthcare reform that lets die the people who should die and then maybe we can talk. We are only having this debate at all because we made the mistake of preserving that which shouldn’t be preserved at all.
#59, Before you talk to me about anything substantial, you need to prove your credentials to me.
You can do that by telling me why you would sacrifice others to save your wife.
#65 You are a jolly guy, jollycynic. Shall we set up some death panels to decide who should live and die? 🙂