John T. Elson, TIME Editor Who Asked “Is God Dead” Dies At 78 Amusing since every site in the world has this story except TIME! (As of this posting.)
The quiet, studious Mr. Elson, who died on Sept. 7 at the age of 78, was an unlikely bomb- thrower, and his article, for those who ventured past the cover, reflected his scholarly bent. Meekly titled on the inside as “Toward a Hidden God,” it began: “Is God dead? It is a question that tantalizes both believers, who perhaps secretly fear that he is, and atheists, who possibly suspect that the answer is no.”
This thread is getting boring. What we urgently need is Pope Alfred the 1st to wade in with an infallible statement in order to invigorate the discussion.
Where is he when we need him?
#30-bobbo-Why would it be “fun” to witness a fellow human beings pain at realizing they have been wrong all their life.
A guy has to have a hobby. Some people collect model trains.
Life is like a movie trailer. You learn just enough about the coming attractions to help you decide what theater you want to enter.
Your personal choices determine what ticket you get and where you sit.
None of us know the full story until we see the movie.
Re #29, Dr Dodd “Not that it would be possible. Do I need to say anymore?”
Well, yes, you need to say more. On one hand you believe on can see god upon death AND be cognitive of his wrath or approval… and on the other hand you don’t think it is possible. So which is it?
Just to make myself clear in post #33 Dr Dodd…
when you said “Not that it would be possible” you were referring to taking a picture of my face when I met up with God.”
The rest of your post inferred that you actually believe in God and I will be judged. If that is true, have the courage to answer my questions in post #28.
re#32, Dr Dodd: “Life is like a movie trailer. You learn just enough about the coming attractions to help you decide what theater you want to enter.”
Well not exactly… bobbo and I are already watching a documentary on evolution, brimming with new discoveries, facts, and reasonable hypotheses based on those facts.
You are still in the lobby watching cartoon animation trailers because there is nothing that can be factually tied to your god that can be filmed.
BTW, why does the snake in the garden of eden always have a lisp?
#35-JimR
You and bobbo have already made your decision on the theater and movie you will see. The only thing left is what seat number you will get.
I should mention those without the golden ticket never get a good seat.
Although there is time, for some reason I doubt you will take advantage of the easy upgrade. Still, this is one time I would like to be wrong.
-Why does the snake in the garden of eden always have a lisp? Probably the idea of a gay Hollywood screenwriter.
Well, maybe thats our problem right there. How old do we have to get before we realize that trailers are all Capitalist Lies?
I never look for a trailer and when I fall across one, I assume it has nothing to do with the movie.
No, personal referrals and film reviews is what I like. The discussion boards at IMDB give a good idea about the film.
If a lot of people are saying the special effects are kewl, or that it was a magical story of human redemption, odds are it is a loser.
On the other hand, if everyone is saying the director is a foreigner and the movie didn’t make any sense, I have a hot lead.
To each his own unlike gods mandatory after class detention.
Ah, the golden ticket… also imaginary. But if to look around you, much of reality has already been explained by scientific process. There is no actual movie-like existence for people like bobbo and I… reality is our stage and we are participants in the only act, only scene.
Meanwhile, Christians and Muslims alike prefer to devalue this life as as nothing more than a waiting room… the lobby as you say… as they wait… imaginary golden ticket in hand… for the end of real life to be replaced by one imagined thousands of years before them by simpler minds with vivid imaginations.
You refuse to look at the gaping holes in your expectations… the death of your brain, taking with it all knowledge of your life, all of what you felt saw and heard… of what makes you who you are.
And what of the insane, and imperfect.
We are ALL … including you… have imperfections and we are products of our lot at birth. A child molester or serial killer is nothing more than an exceptionally imperfect human… bad wiring … and by your account… is of god’s creation. So please explain why god will send his imperfect creations to suffer in hell as well as live a life of hell?
There are no rational answers for those questions, and yet you criticize those who live and behave rationally. Dysrationalia fits you perfectly. Good word MScott.
Hmmm…..”Golden Ticket”…..why JimR, I think you were right the first time. Wasn’t a Golden Ticket the Primus Mobile of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory? Not “exactly” a cartoon, but given live actors, about as close as you can get.
Poor Alfie, errrrr—Dr Dodd. Revealed. They probably don’t show adult films at the matinee’s he attends in Retardo Town.
Oh, how could I forget the golden ticket bobbo! … Dr Alfie Dodd the 1st, must be hoping to inherit Willy Wonka’s chocolate factory and live forever in Oompa Looompa land. Too bad Dr Dodd, Charlie already won. But that could mean…
…we’re all destined to be Oompa Loompas. Well, I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.
(G,night eh?)
People die. Ideas live longer than people, but eventually die too. Think of all the gods of history who are no longer worshipped, the ones you actively disbelieve in, and and ask yourself: what’s so different about yours?
#39-JimR-#40-bobbo
Everyone loves a good mocking and you do it so well. However in this case you are working under the false impression that I care what your fate is in the afterlife. I mean if you don’t care then you really can’t expect me to.
Each of us make our own decision… you’ve made yours.
I can respect that.
Has anyone actually read this article? The God is dead movement in theology was a reaction to the stale state of Christian theology for the last 800 years. Well actually 2000 years when you realize that 90% of Christian theology is just a rehash of Greek philosophy.
Since that time various fundamentalist reactions crushed the life out of the exploratory thinking and debate that infused the movement (these guys did believe in God) and it is pretty much dead. For example, Pope Benedict’s entire career is a triumph over liberal theology.
Fundamentalist thinking has replaced traditional and liberal religious thinking in much of the world since that time. For example the replacement of mainstream churches in the US with marketed consumer style evangelicals and the Muslim state in the middle East and Africa. In Western Europe the conservative crackdown in religion has only led to a decline in Christianity.
The only place where liberal Christian theology has survived is South America and has been married to various social theorist and linguistic schools of thought.
#48 Thanks Alfred1. You just the proved my point that fundamentalism has crushed thoughtful Theology.
However strict orthodoxy, which is really what you’re pushing, eventually wants to become political and it’s never pretty.
BTW, the word “apostate” is from the greek “apostasia” meaning defection or revolt.
Fundamentalism is about whether a fact is acceptable before you’ve explored it. It can religious. It can be left wing eco-nuts. I don’t care.
Of course, the bible was written in a different Greek dialect than classic Greek since the two were written ~500 years apart. Really dude, use your brain.
Scriptural theology is interesting and fascinating. But it is only one small branch of theology and philosophy.
Alfred1, you’re starting to see the light.
First appeal to authority: “a strict adherence to or interpretation of a doctrine, set of principles, etc., as of a social, legal, political, or religious group or system” sounds pretty similar to “Fundamentalism is about whether a fact is acceptable before you’ve explored it.” Thanks for agreeing with me.
On the philosophical front you’re going in the right direction but you’ve got to realize that there was more than one philosophical school in 800 years of Greek history at that point.
The dominant Greek philosophical schools in the Roman Empire were (wait for it) Epicureanism and Stoicism. (OK, there was skepticism, but that’s another story). Of course, this pissed of the Greeks (the Vulcans of the Empire) and the Jews. When Christianity showed up the Socratics found natural alignment with Platonic teachings and so Saul/Paul and the other Roman hating misfits married the two together and, voila, Christian theology was born.
Neo-Platonism ran for several hundred years through Augustine and Plotinus and made Christianity more legit in the empire because it had educated Greek thinking back it up – in other words, not just a smelly Jewish sect. Of course it didn’t hurt that Roman Emperors neo-Platonists because that would imply political thinking among the Christians, right?
Then the dark ages showed up, bummer. Eventually those darn Muslims showed up in Spain and reintroduced Greek philosophy (and zeros) to Europe. Christianity grabbed Aristotle and that whole categorical/logic paradigm and the Parisian school ran with it. This led eventually to Aquinas, the Summa Theologica, and of course the 5 proofs for the existence of God which you’re so fond of.
Unfortunately this also took over scientific thinking for the next few hundred years so we ended up burning witches because they weighed the same as a duck. Even then, religion and science didn’t mix. Eventually Descartes, Kant, and a bunch of other drunks waylayed the academics and their natural philosphy, beat the crap out of Aquinas, got science back on track, and pushed Theology back into it’s happy Platonic existence. Platonic Theology was also a favourite of Protestants while the RC’s still clung to their Aquinas until the mid 20th century. See “Is God Dead” story in Time.
Latley Ayn Rand, Whitehead, and Sartre beat the shit out of Kant and Descartes, but then they were just showing off. Of course Greek skepticism has been reborn lately (it also flourished in Roman times) and has been seal clubbing everything it can find, including God. Hello Libertarianism.
So when you read the Acts of the Apostles and see the reaction of cool kids of philosophy in those days, you start to see the conflicting schools of thought. Paul didn’t hate all Greek philosophy, just those Romanized limp-wristed, bed-wetting Epicureans and Stoics.
#55–qb==Bravo. If I had unlimited wishes from the Genie, one of them would be to “really” understand the weave and warp of what you have posted. Sadly, I only impercive bits and pieces.
bobbo, I wouldn’t even think about it. I wasted too many years studying philosophy – I should have studied beer making. Beer is closest thing I’ve seen to a proof for the existence of God.
#57-qb-Beer is closest thing I’ve seen to a proof for the existence of God.
Granted, good beer is important.
After reading with great interest a few of your and Alfred1 posts I find it a bit tragic that you have accumulated so much book knowledge and still fail to grasp what is really important.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not disagreeing with your statements just that it’s sad you don’t know what to do with the information you’ve no doubt spent a lifetime collecting.
Just knowing historical facts is useless unless you can also form it into practical application. Perhaps enlightenment will one day come your way.
WOW, MOM, WOW. Beer brings us all together. ha, ha. One of Dodds best summary statements. Greeks had an expression about too much philosophy making someone indecisive (or something), and knowing what one is talking about does make one tend to avoid the easy answers that many others rally around.
Good thing is, one can have philosophy and beer, and even god. or not.
#58 Dr Dodd
You may be enlightened. I’m not sure I’m enlightened, or ever will be, but I’ve never been happier – and your comments have only made me more so. Thank you and I acknowledge the Buddha within.
#59 bobbo
The older I get, the more I appreciate beer. I mean, I’ve always like beer but I’m increasingly amazed at the variety and creativity that people into brewing. It’s art and science celebrating in your mouth.
#60–qb==”art and science?” Somebody made the point that wine making was an art, but that for beer you needed civilization (science?). I think that disctinction flowed from the wine appearing first, like cheese, an observed accident that then got applied to beer making.
Gee, I must have been drinking when I first heard it because it made sense then, and doesn’t now.
I’m making 2 gallon batches of cheese right now. Easy to do until about 2 months in when humidity becomes critical. Given the time frames involved, its hard to experiment with different procedures. Much more complicated than beer or wine.
bobbo, I was eating some Sylvan Star Gouda tonight and you got me thinking about how tough it is to make something that delicious. I love cheese but now I’ll treat it with more respect. I hope your cheese turns out well – keep us posted.
#62–qb==as you like cheese, you should try a batch or two of your own. Its edible from day one thru 2 months. After that, the technical side of “aging” is eluding me right now. But I still have excellent cheese much cheaper than store bought. I am able to judge all elements except requiring cheese cloth. I use 37 inch squares of muslim cloth from the local yardage store. Its all kinda fun.
My favorite meal right now is a shrimp and cheese platter with 4-5 types of cheese. After Blue Cheese, then my own home made soft cheese, I like SMOKED GOUDA the best. Really does go with everything.
This is where I started:
http://schmidling.com/making.htm
#63-bobbo
Now this is what I call turning history into practical application.
Thanks for the cheese making link.
Dr Dodd said “Now this is what I call turning history into practical application.”
History is useful only as long as we don’t use it to examine faith and religion. 😉