The controversy over gender row champion runner Caster Semenya deepened today — after reports claimed sex swap tests have shown she is a HERMAPHRODITE. South African gold-medallist Semenya, 18, has both male and female organs, it was claimed.
And sources close to the International Association of Athletics Federations — who ordered extensive tests on the teen after her amazing 800m win at the World Athletics Championships last month — say the results mean she could still be stripped of her medal.
Do we need a third category in competitions?
#29–scient==nice review. I have never mentioned testosterone or really any other issue other than: define the competing category and go for it. Not what the contestant thinks, or the contestants family thinks. I googled (Olympics “gender definition”) and didn’t turn up anything in the time I gave it.
Fact is what’s interesting as you demonstrate is that things we take for granted upon closer SCIENTIFIC (greg!) scrutiny invariably show reality to be more complex, more variable, more sublime, more intricate, more mystical than the black/white simplistic scenario’s foisted on us by our great leaders.
Define female as you wish and if it is determined later you gotta add an X or delete a Y then go for it but anyone qualifying under whatever the defintion is should be allowed to complete.
The WHOLE POINT of female competition is to see what females are capable of==not what a transexual is capable of. and THAT has nothing to do with all the other tangential issues that idiots will try to cram in.
#13, “They’re not hermaphrodites anymore. They’re called Intersex person now.”
lol, until the next feel-good term gets invented because the current one stops being vogue.
#33–Hey Pedro==isn’t daylight required in order to have shadows? And the brighter the light, the darker the shadows?
Hysteria? Gee whiz. Is what the Greeks thought that much relevant anymore? “Mental Agitation” applicable to men and women? Update your dictionary.
I’ll stop now.
Here’s the thing. When you give a blood test for athletic testing of some sort (doping, whatever,) you are giving info on markers in your system, but NOT your gender.
If there is no way gender is defined by a governing athletics organization, they cannot discriminate against anyone who claims to be of any gender.
However, most likely there is a definition (albeit simplistic) of gender at this level. If you have a Y chromosome, you’re a male–cut and dry, right?
Well that’s fine if they do a karyotype to show this lovely 23rd pair on EVERY participant. But the fact is, they don’t do this. Ever really. This person has been discriminated against in this way by having to do a karyotype while other contestants did not. Why? Because this person ran faster than expected and doesn’t look traditionally female.
If the article is correct, Semenya also has no ovaries, which in addition to any elevated testosterone level the testes are contributing to, she also should have a lower than normal estrogen level as well, which seems as though it could also contribute to having a physiological advantage over her other female competitors.
Heh, watching the accompanying video, without knowing any better, I wager most would say that is a young man being interviewed.
#35–scients==Why should karyotype testing be done if everyone is satisfied with the performance of everyone in a race?
If Semenya had come in fourth, it wouldn’t be an issue. Semenya isn’t claiming anyone behind her needs to be tested.
Wanna join the real world, you aren’t making any sense at all.
Who woulda thought someone named “Semen” would have extra testosterone? What is this, a Victorian morality play?
So, can hermaphrodites be gay or straight?
#33 Yes, Pedro, I do see shadows in broad daylight. You proved my point.
Also, what spices are you talking about?
Are you on 1/2 medication to cut costs? It’s not working.
3 categories? Why do we even have 2?
One category — the best, open to all.
everything after that is kind of like the special olympics.
btw — there are many different shades of sex :
XY, YY, XXY, XXYY, etc.
bobbo–I would tend to ask you the same question.
If Semenya had come in fourth it wouldn’t be an issue.
EXACTLY. Yet this would still be an “unfair” sex advantage (a nonfemale against females.) So logically to prevent this from ever happening, we would have to be darn sure that everyone ever competing in the future was a female or male. Only black and white method = karyotyping.
So is this the case, or is it really only an unfair advantage when we notice? When we’re not all “satisfied” with the results.
If Semenya came in fourth, gender would not have been an issue. But Semenya would still be an intersex and may have beaten the 5th, 6th, etc. place women based on that. So is it still an unfair advantage?
If we’re going to test one person for their gender based on whatever qualitative data some officials have (she ran too fast and she looks manly,) then really this needs to be applied across the board for the sake of fairness, which hopefully still exists in athletics.
I’m not trying to pick a fight–tone is a tricky in text…I know it’s ridiculous to karyotype everyone. But, it’s also ridiculous to assume that only the outliers have an unfair advantage.
Basically I’m saying this targeting should never have happened. It can open a can of worms.
Oh, and I loved (!!!) this earlier:
If the tracks were big enough we could just let all the qualifiers run and let the categories of humans sort themselves out.
Brilliant statement
NOT an hermaphrodite. By definition an hermaphrodite has BOTH male and female reproductive organs. According to the referenced article, this poor young man does NOT have female repro organs. What we have here technically is known as ambiguous genitalia. Sadly many males with this condition are surgically transformed into girls during infancy.
Typical of The Sun, the article contradicts itself. Early it says there are both male and female organs but later states there is no uterus nor ovaries.
I suspect the latter is true since true hermaphroditism (in humans) is exceptionally rare. Superficially, I see no real signs of breast development and masculine muscularity so I would guess the family did NOT know or chose not to use the hormone therapies many with this condition use.
And, yes, there is a move to refer to persons with ambiguous genitalia as “intersex.” I don’t like the term as it insinuates a sort of halfway status.
They are not half female, they are all male just with imperfect genitals.
Life is harder for some than others. For this person life is not going to be easy.
Photoshopped, I’ve seen real herms in Usenet. Cute little blondes that could pitch and catch.
#44–Animby==thanks for the review. Isn’t it true that the “brain sex” or sexual orientation varies as much as the physical attributes? This case is demonstrating how “male” and “female” is much more jumbled up than we first think on casual review. You hit the body characteristics pretty well them miffed it on the psycho/social.
Anyway–do-ill==as usual, just because someone is not exactly like you doesn’t mean they have a hard life. Semenya may be well adjusted or not all independent of what we know so far. Usually all it takes is “one” loving adult in the young persons life. More is better of course, but often one is enough.
Did you have one do-ill?
Everybody in the World will eventually be tested minute by minute, to track any changes in DNA, endocrine levels and especially cholesterol. This data will be used to handicap every conceivable level of human endeavor.
“I see you were speeding, but your double y chromosome predicted that, so I’m going to cut you the mandatory break here. Please drive safely.”
#47 – Bobbo : I started a little treatise on the psycho-social aspects but figured most people wouldn’t feel like reading overnight. Most of these are treated by emasculation, hormone treatments and, lately, intense psych therapy. Many are raised never knowing they “were” male. Very many go on to have sexual orientation or other psych problems. And, of course, they have no vaginal vault so, without surgery, sexual intercourse may be impossible. If caught early enough, there are now some surgical modalities that ease the problem, though not cure it. In fact, it’s a toss up (to me) whether it’s best to go through life as a non-functional woman or a man with a micropenis.
I hate to sound too solicitous. Lord knows I’ve seen much worse birth defects. But there’s something about sexual abnormalities that hits people hard.
give her/him half the medal.
If the reports are correct, Ms Semanya has PAIS-6. Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome grade 6, where grade 7 is Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS).
What this means is that she’s almost completely immune to testosterone and other androgens. “Almost”, but not quite completely. If she’d had CAIS, she’d be ultra-feminine, more so than standard factory model women. It’s an open secret that most of the supermodels who don’t have children have CAIS, as did Miss Teen USA 1991.
From the Internation Amateur Atletics Association rules on the subject :
(The crux of the matter is that the athlete should not be enjoying the benefits of natural testosterone predominance normally seen in a male)
6. Conditions that should be allowed:- Androgen insensitivity syndrome (Complete or almost complete – previously called testicular feminization);- Gonadal dysgenesis (gonads should be removed surgically to avoid malignancy);- Turner’s syndrome.
(b) Those conditions that may accord some advantages but nevertheless acceptable:- Congenital adrenal hyperplasia;- Androgen producing tumors;- Anovulatory androgen excess (polycystic ovary syndrome).
Unlike other women, she cannot get the full performance benefits of testosterone, since she’s almost immune to the stuff. Having three times the female average could well be less effective when it comes to building muscle mass than a normal amount in an average women. Many female athletes have high natural levels of testosterone anyway – though still a third or less of an average male, and a tenth of a male athlete.
As regards the “dangerous condition” of internal testes, the danger isn’t exactly immediate. There’s a tenfold normal risk of cancer, and it would be wise to have 6-monthly checks, and gonadectomy if any pre-cancerous lesions are found, but that’s it. At worst, 1 in 50, and the estrogen, the female sex hormone also produced by the testes, is useful for preventing oteopyrosis and other conditions, so it’s swings and roundabouts. The real reason for gonadectomy is to stop other people from being upset about the idea of a woman with testes in her body.
I’ve stated the IAAA’s policy – but that policy is not always followed. The Indian athlete Santhi Soundarajan had CAIS, but was stripped of her medals by Indian authorities, not because she had an advantage, but purely for being Intersexed, a sub-human. She attempted suicide shortly thereafter, as Ms Semanya may do.
She’s an 18 year old girl from a backwoods African rural village who has given her all to become a world-class athlete. Now she’s had the double blow of being told she’ll never be able to have children, and having her life and ambitions shattered by a global surge of ignorant bigotry.
Some of which is apparent in these comments.
Oh yes, I’m Intersexed too. I’m also 51, a middle-aged woman old enough to be a grandma, and used to this kind of thing. She’s only a teenage girl. Some here forget that. (
Wow, I’m surprised O.o
i think that this “woman” shouldnt be classified in the womans race because it is not fair to the other WOMEN that this “woman” has extra testosterone which enables her to run the race faster than all the other women. She should be classified in the male races because 1 she is mainly male and 2 because she would actually have competition instead of always winning, because either those other women who run the 800 stop running that race or they should start shooting up testosterone. And if she really wants to be classified as a woman then go get what you need taken off off and start taking more estrogen. No one is hating on this woman or on hermaphrodites we are just saying that you have the ability to choose what you want to be so choose it!
#49–Animby==thank you. Brevity is the soul of wit, and a few other things as well. Interesting that you would come at the psycho-social continuum of sexuality with the disease model. Now I know once the issue is raised, you will quickly provide “other” information. Still, you are tagged.
#51–Zoe==good website, I’ll spend more time there later today. Bias is an interesting issue. YOU think “we”/I have it because we consider ourselves “all” male or female. But rather unreasoning bias is shown by yourself saying: “(Semenya) was stripped of her medals by Indian authorities, not because she had an advantage, but purely for being Intersexed, a sub-human.” I assume you made this up out of whole cloth==if I am wrong, please post a link?
The truth is just the opposite. She was disqualified exactly and only because she showed an extreme advantage voiding the entire purpose of the competition. She is not subhuman–I assume that is sarcasm on your part, but nonetheless you play into the stereotype you are against.
To be fair, my rendition is also made up. I have no links. Only my perceived history that where on the continuum the sexuality of a person lies is not an issue when they lose==only when they win, and even more often when they win by SUPERHUMAN margins.
Bias. Seems to vary independently of sex.
bobbo – I think you’re referring to Santhi Soundarajan, a woman with CAIS or PAIS-6 – opinions vary – who was stripped of her medals.
This was *not* done by the IAAA – the International Athletics Association – as they concede that high degree AIS provides no benefit.
Neither was it done by the International Olympic Committee, who accept that women with high degree AIS are women.
It was done purely by the organisers of the Asian Games (in 2006), the Olympic Council of Asia and against medical advice, simply because she “failed a sex test” by having 46XY chromosomes. No further excuse was given, and the diagnosis of AIS came as the result of later tests after disquakification.
The excuse given by the AOC was “disqualified as per the recommendations of the medical committee on a Games rule violation”, a blatant untruth as the IOC policy shows.
It was a decision based on wilful ignorance, against expert advice, and on bigotry, not Science.
See the recent article in TIME magazine on the subject. (URLs omitted to avoid spam filters.)
“At the 1996 olympics in Atlanta, the IOC reverted to the buccal smear test, and a comprehensive process for screening, confirmation of testing, and counselling of individuals “detected”, was carried out. Out of 3387 female athletes 8 had positive test results. Eventually however, all of these were ruled “false positive” as it was established that 7 had androgen insensitivity, 4 incomplete, and 3 complete. The last one had previously undergone gonadectomy (removal of internal testes) and is presumed to have 5-alpha-steroid reductase deficiency (deficiency of an enzyme necessary to activate testosterone in responsive tissues). All individuals were permitted to compete.”
Women with high degree AIS have always been cnsidered female by Olympics medical committees. It is only by looking at the social attitudes towards the “biologically unusual” prevailing in the Asian Olympic movement that their action is explicable.
#55–Zoe==excuse me. YOU were quite clear about Ms Soundarajan and somehow I just switched in Ms Semenya. I apologize for my confusion.
So==what would you do? I say define the sexes for competition any way you wish and apply THAT definition until it is changed. This will result in a few people not being qualified to compete==unless “all comers” would be allowed to run in the “all open”/male category.
Should handicapped people with carbon spring feet also be allowed?
Do you make a clear distinction in your mind between sex determination in societal contexts other than competitive sports, and competitive sports?
What do you think careful readers should conclude on sober thoughtful reflection?
#56 bobo – no matter, I got your meaning from context, just a typo really.
What I would do is to have a “norm” baseline, and anyone outside that would be excluded. The baseline would have to be pretty broad though, allowing people with abnormally large hearts, abnormally large feet etc to qualify.
Look at the results for sprinting and middle-distance running. How many in the finals are *not* of East African ancestry? Yet we don’t exclude them just because there’s an obvious genetic advantage.
The IAAA guidelines say it all in one sentence: “The crux of the matter is that the athlete should not be enjoying the benefits of natural testosterone predominance normally seen in a male”.
Three times “normal” – especially when in conjunction with insensitivity to the stuff – while it may provide some advantage is less of an advantage than other conditions (such as PCOS) which are allowable, and in some cases, impossible to measure. And less than the advantage of East African ancestry that the Kenyasn runner had.
Yes, I do make a distinction between biological category in a sports sense, as opposed to a social sense. I also make such a distinction in a fertility sense as opposed to a sports or social sense. One can be unable to have children, yet still be considered male or female.
The trouble is that sport assumes a sexual binary, an ability to strictly partition all people into two categories. Biology isn’t like that. The binary is an excellent approximation, good for 59 people out of 60, but 1.7% are Intersexed in some way, great or small. Usually small.
You mentioned “Handicapped” people. That’s also the essence. Is there a true “handicap” here, a disadvantage that penalises the runner? I’d say yes, and don’t see people cutting off their legs just to have the advantage of spring steel. It would be reasonable to specify that only prosthetics that don’t give a significant advantage would be used, but I think the disbenefits of lacking legs outweigh the benefits.
I have no idea what readers should conclude. I prefer to lay out the facts, and let others decide. I can’t be objective, as I’m Intersexed myself, and one of the rare and truly spectacular conditions, unlike plain common old AIS, which is 1 in 20,000.
#51, 55 Zoe — thanks for your insight.
one question that bothers me — shouldn’t an 18 year old know there is something amiss if she hasn’t had a period yet?
C’mon, let’s have some common sense here. When I first saw a picture of this athlete I said…She’s a MAN baby!!! And so did anyone else with any common sense – an increasingly rare commodity these days.
I feel sorry for Semenya, and if he/she wants to continue to go through life as a woman, that’s fine with me. It’s too bad that this had to be such a public revelation. However, the reality is that most women cannot compete against most men directly in athletics. In that sphere, men have a natural advantage in anything requiring strength or speed. Why do we even bother arguing about this? It just IS what IT is. We really have to leave the ideological arguments behind and bow to the realities inherent in nature. It doesn’t make one sex inferior or the other superior – just different. As the French used to say, and maybe still do, Viva La Difference!!!
And good luck to Semenya – perhaps if he decides to live as a male, he can compete effectively in male competitions.
I fault her parents who insisted she was “our little girl” when they must have realized something was up. They wanted the big bucks that came with an Olympic medal and they lied.
The glamor shots that were done to prove she was a woman were pretty awful, too.