Tuesday I asked a frequent commenter and staunch electric vehicle advocate whether he ever questioned the ethics of building an EV that can save one owner 400 gallons of gas per year while using enough batteries to build ten Prius-class hybrids that could save their owners a combined total of 1,600 gallons of gas per year. I then spent an hour in stunned silence as the critical importance of that question crystallized in my mind. I didn’t get a responsive answer from the commenter, but I did get one of those rare moments of clarity when everything suddenly falls into place.
For years the mainstream media, scientists, elected officials and promoters have written and spoken ad nauseum about how a new generation of plug-in hybrid electric vehicles, or PHEVs, will liberate America from the tyranny of imported oil. The problem is the promises are based on flawed assumptions and utterly false. At their best, PHEVs and EVs are all sizzle and no steak when it comes to national energy independence. At their worst, they are deep cover saboteurs that will undermine America’s drive for energy independence while stridently claiming to be part of the solution.
On par with asking if replacing gas guzzlers with new vehicles is a net positive if you consider the resources required to build that new car.
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If your math is correct, then you have hit the nail on the head. What is the best use of economic resources? Time to start asking the tough questions.
I think all electrics will serve a niche market. It’s not like you’re going to be loading two kids and a dog for a five hour trip to grannies in one. I test drove several hybrids before my last purchase. The motor came on and stayed on the whole time, because it was 95 degrees out and the AC was on high. I still lean toward clean burning small diesels.
PHEVs make total sense as long as the U.S. comes to its’ senses and adopts clean coal and Nuclear Electricity generation. Otherwise, it’s just trading a dependence on oil with an overpriced, underperforming, and aging grid. The United States needs more energy over the next 20 years, and, currently, wind and solar power just doesn’t provide the watts needed.
“The problem is the promises are based on flawed assumptions and utterly false.” //// I disagree. Define “utterly.”
State the assumptions and then workthem/tweak them to see if there are any solutions?
From the start I have read that batteries, their construction, recycling, and efficiencies still had to be worked out. Related stories about the main source of lithium being Bolivia and how they are trying not to get raped by International Corporations this time around—etc.
You got a bit of chicken little going on. Progress is not a silver bullet, its a process. Sounds like we need some kind of government intervention between consumers and car makers to make system wide resource allocations that make sense? Contra==what you say being true, wouldn’t MARKET DEMAND ((in a perfect system)) allocate the batteries correctly between pure and hybrid??
Good thoughts, just keep on thinking.
Can someone explain to me why we are building a whole bunch of Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors? How about a video on this awesome energy source?
In general I think enivronmentalists fail to do these calculations, but are batteries really so scarce that they can’t build enough for all cars? The article says the manufacturing is limited, but I would expect that limitation to disappear, especially with federal subsidies coming.
However, if batteries are themselves an environmental hazard, then these calculations are important.
Who do you have to frak around here to get post with links to go through unmolested? Jeebus.
Firefighters and paramedics are becoming very reluctant to touch hybrids involved in accidents because of the high voltage stored by these systems. Wonderful, you’ve been in a serious accident and no one wants to touch your car.
You have a valid point. I would add that electric vehicles are both being fought by oil companies in conjunction with the U.S. auto industry – or use to be fought since the downturn of that last group – and that they end up benefitting whoever provides electricity for the area in which you drive most / live. For me, that’s APCO and that means coal use.
But it’s a hard line to keep running. As battery power gets better the savings of an all electric vehicle becomes greater. And so will hybrid cars.
The main thrust of your argument is that it is cheaper to make hybrids than to make an all electric. I’d argue that there’s been more real, practical research done with hybrids than all electrics but I’d have to research that before using it as I might be wrong. And notice that the only reason we have so many hybrids on the road right now as cheap as they are – and they aren’t that cheap – is because a non-American company(ies) did the research into it and ramped up production to practical levels rather than kill the project after an appearance of doing something.
This isn’t an anti-American rant. It’s anti-corporate. The other companies did so with substantial government support too. And a different type of support than we have given “American” car manus. I’m not saying that support is good ’cause sometimes it’s anti-competitive and wrong but it can help in the developmental stages of production.
Anyway, I see your point and agree. So, can someone now give me that Prius for my old Ford Van? Nah, didn’t think so. I’m too cash strapped to afford something to save the environment.
The same people who think that electric cars help the environment are the same ones that think it is a good idea to use Ethanol. they never look at the total picture, they just want the appearance of doing good.
I read once about the paper versus plastic debate at the checkout line. Oh, always use paper since it is a renewable resource and therefor better for the planet all the while forgetting that producing paper has a byproduct of Dioxins that are oh so good for everyone……..
Always choose plastic bags unless you need a paper one to carry popcorn to the drive-in.
😉
First riddle me this…What constitutes energy independance, and where are we on that road? (as far as foreign oil, how much comes from where?) I was already under the impression that most of our oil came from Canada, and this hemisphere. Thats the first question to answer. But you raise a good point in that we need to carefully define the issue so we can actually get where we want to go.
Reducing the question to one of pure economic convenience is how we got to this situation of dependence and ecological fear. Just my opinion, but maybe it’s time to see outside the box.
Consider my path (as some of you know me from past posts)
G2 2006 Prius, @ 26K
– 4 year loan
– Buyback @ 9K next year, I’ll put it on 3yr
When I got my Prius, I knew it was just a matter of time that CHEAP PHEV systems will come out, because there is now a market for it, with over 1M sold, and the G3 will outsell the G2.
Back in 2006 a typical Hymotion EV-20 was 10K$.
Now, a more intelligent option for me, an EV-8 add-on (to the current EV-2) for 2k$.
*two thousand bucks* to be gas-free for about ten miles. System is good for 7+ years before it starts to degrade. Details at Enginer.US.
My daily commute is some 4 miles of highway and 10 miles of 40MPH boulevards one way, and I can plug-in at work.
The Toyota HSD is simply the best system – everything else is too expensive.
How many people know the following facts about a Prius :
– PZEV exhaust – scrubs 90% of smog emitting pollution, produce 1/6th the harmful pollution emitted from a Honda Accord V4 VTEC, which is already on the low scale of polluting cars.
– Has *two* electric motors, one paired to the gas motor and the other to the front wheels, thus minimizing friction loss.
– With a simple push on the gas pedal, you can drive in FIVE different modes:
1-Full gas + full electric (max power)
2-Full gas + generator to recharge batteries
(think of one of the two electric motors as being your alternator)
3-Full electric (for creeping in bumper-to-bumper traffic)
4-Frictionless (gas off electric off) for coasting to a red light or stop.
5-Let Go Of The Gas Pedal – full regenerative braking, both electric motors absorbing energy and some of it going to the batteries.
If you read the above 5 – you’ll understand how hypermilers do their tricks to obtain ridiculous mileage with a Prius.
Even the Honda Insight *cannot* do #4 and it only has 1 electric motor, so less regenerative capacity and less power for quick startups or passing power.
Honestly, the next best thing to a Prius? The Ford Escape Hybrid which is just like a Prius but scaled UP for the higher mass of the small SUV, if you consider the Escape to be *small*.
The new generation of PHEV batteries are LIPO, or Lithium Ion Phosphor. They are good overall, but expensive compared to NIMH which also acts the closest to a capacitor (quick absorb).
The Enginer.US uses the LIPO to feed the onboard NIMH whenever the HSD is in regeneration or full idle. So basically a large bucket of water that fills in a glass of water whenever the glass empties itself.
Simple PHEV solution = KISS = cheap & effective.
Hymotion powers the electric motors directly, bypassing the internal Toyota NIMH, which is a more complicated solution, but allows FULL EV, whereas Enginer.US is PHEV so that the Toyota HSD is even more effective.
In my *low* 12k miles per year it will save me about 500$ of gas per year, so a 4 year payback for a system that lasts 7+ years.
#10–Diesel==I thought dioxins were used to bleach paper==hence all the grocery bags are recycled brown paper==ie, zero dioxins.
While always appropriate to sound the alarm, shouldn’t your information be less than 15 years old?
#9 gmknob
I think in this book…
It said that a good deal of the research into hybrid tech was actually done in the US, and largely paid for by the government (to the tune of billions).
That tech was not used by US car companies, and the Japanese used the results.
As an aside, I believe ( I think this is from the union of concerned scientists book) – car productions energy is < 20% of total energy in running the car.
This says as much with the prius…
So mpg – does make a big difference in overall efficiency including the car production, even if it is a hybrid.
The flawed study is summarized as follows:
* We need to rid ourselves of dependence on foreign sources of energy – CHECK
* We go to start somewhere. Battery technology needs to mature sure, but this is an opportunity to lead not just seen as a problem – CHECK
* The ‘study’ does not factor in the US government subsidizing oil by having BILLIONS in military presence in Persian gulf to protect it.. This oil subsidy is the best kept secret in the world. – CHECK
* The cost of polluting the air today is ZERO. How much to do value clean air? When the cost of polluting the air is factored into the cost of energy, the numbers look much better for battery – CHECK
* When we shut down the whining conservatives with their DIG DIG DIG mater plan, we can move forward. – CHECK
Dallas wins
#10 Mr Diesel
Bit sweeping.
Hybrid and electric cars have a lot going for them. Throwing them in with Ethanol is misleading.
Your are right that Ethanol isn’t a great solution, for a lot of reasons, especially when the Ethanol comes from corn. Because
1) You’re making food compete with fuel
2) There isn’t enough space to produce enough corn
3) It has been argued it takes more energy (excusing the sun) to produce the Ethanol, than you get out
Perhaps when there is cellulosic process for corn, it may have more legs to stand on. Once that occurs – switch grass and other sources may work too.
Personally I think that’s a little way off, but is worth exploring. In the meantime, hybrid and perhaps electric has legs.
I would also say I don’t understand the whole hydrogen thing either. It’s effectively a battery not an energy source. It’s a distribution method too – requiring high pressure and very complicated containment vessels.
I also thought it was bizzare (as in stupid) that Bush pushed Ethanol as the answer to our ‘addiction to oil’. And the Governator pushed hydrogen.
Ask yourself this question: Is gasoline recyclable?
I know this is a way too complex question for Hoover, but the rest of you can have a crack at it.
Just look at the “Dust to Dust” report. People refused to believe it a few years ago…
This was the report that showed that the Prius was worse than a Hummer H1 over its total usable life expectancy.
This behavior can be most easily summarized as: “Stepping over a Dollar to pick up a Dime.”
It is no different than the Ethanol crackpots and the wind/solar obsessed people. In the mad rush to “look” like something is being done, they pay no attention at all to the total impact of the decision.
Good to see someone else finally unplugging from the far left crackpot “matrix” and thinking for themselves.
#9 Plenty of research was done with full EV’s. The problem is strictly the batteries.
A full-EV car is mechanically simple, the problem is voltage and voltage drop (loss) at 12dcv.
Every car has miles of wires, and plenty of loss at 12v, which is why household wiring is 120/220v, to bring Amps to the appliance.
The only way around this is a lower gage wire (thicker) which is very heavy and expensive.
A hydrogen hybrid or natural gas hybrid is much better than Full-EV as well as being cheaper than a Full-EV.
Most people think the opposite.
The high-voltage necessary for a 100 mile range EV, when each cell is only 3.0 dcv, means a complicated mess of parallel+series to get to at least 300dcv.
The Prius is at 220-240v because the two electric motors are smaller.
On the LEAF or the VOLT, high voltage is necessary.
Now imagine a huge array of tiny D sized cells, and combining them to 300v you need 100 in series. So you get the proper voltage.
However, you don’t have enough Amperage !
Voltage adds up, but now amperage, or else the wire would melt if it’s 12 gage.
You don’t want the wires to weigh more than the batteries.
So you need to make tinier groups, four cells wired in series is the norm, each group of four on a parallel bus leading to a larger sub-group, and so on, to split the amperage load across all your cells.
Also helps in distributing the charging.
Now each small group needs a sensor/distributor that analyzes the cells in it’s group of four to ensure a 2.8 to 3.2 volt at full charge, or else, you have a defective cell, causing the other three to work harder, thus they die faster.
See how complicated it gets real fast?
Lead-acid batteries is a much simpler design, as each cell is 12v instead of 3v, but the problem is total weight to get 300v.
And lead-acid dies quickly if you discharge them a lot.
So the GAS motor is here to stay – however let’s improve the gas motor – instead of staying with 1990’s fuel injection technology.
The new Ford gas motor with direct injection is a great move forward, expect great things.
Another improvement is a cleaner fuel, like natural gas, which burns clean causing no smog compared to gasoline or diesel.
Since gas motors often over-produce energy, capturing that extra energy in a cheap battery hybrid system makes a lot of sense.
The guy who wrote the article, kindly enough added a disclosure at the bottom of the article:
Both companies are involved in the creation of traditional lead-acid car batteries. No wonder he’s so against electric vehicles, because this type of batteries aren’t good enough for electric vehicles. Perhaps he should encourage his companies to follow the cheese?!
The problem with these kinds of articles is that they tend to assume that all energy sources are equal. If I burn a bunch of tires to make enough heat to boil a cup of water or if I use solar reflectors to boil that same cup they both require the same amount of energy to boil the water but one of them is a lot more polluting than the other. I’d like to see a study that looks at the amount of pollution used in manufacturing and driving a Prius vs. a Hummer.
#20 Jason bad move with the dust-to-dust report.
Very flawed analysis, anyone that graduated high school with at least an 75% overall average is intelligent enough to see past the flawed math.
The simplest : A Hummer last 20 years and the Prius 5 years. Duh, can’t you see the flaw in that statement???
Any Prius will outlast a Hummer in years of life, most Hummers with 15k miles per year need engine overhauls by the time they reach 100k miles. Taxi Prius have run 500,000 miles without even changing the shock absorbers, only thing changed were the wipers, oil and tires.
Jason, use your brain for critical thinking. See past propaganda.
If the dust-to-dust was really true, Hummer would not have gone bankrupt.
As for 4×4 capability, talk to any off-roaders they will tell you the Hummer is a joke, even a standard Ford Explorer is a better 4×4, and
cheaper to fix too.
#21 OvenMaster
The reason that an ‘external’ engine can be more efficient than an ‘internal’ engine, is for a variety of reasons.
The main one is that industrial power stations extract far more energy than an engine in your car can. They are much more efficient. I think internal combustion engines < 30% efficient. Power stations can be towards 90%.
It is also much easier to clean, and process exhaust from a big power station than from lots of exhausts.
You have the downside of energy loss over power lines – but as long as you still got more energy for your input you still win. I've read about smaller local power stations, being tried in european countries, this basically removes the transmission line problem.
Also with a power station you have many more options on what kind of fuel. Be it fossil fuels, nuclear etc. Ie removing our dependence on foriegn oil.
And of course you can use renewables – hydro electic, wind, geothermal, etc.
So independent from renewables – it's got a lot going for it.
As an aside if you take a car as a human transport solution. It is less than 1% efficient. Thats largely because the majority of the work being done is moving a heavy car.
Oil being a precious resource as it is – you'd think it would be well worth the effort of trying to better than that.
Interesting to recognize the MULTIPLE interactive issues and how they get confused, unrecognized, misinterpreted.
Coal based electric vehicles are FAR less polluting than petroleum based vehicles.
Look at the limits of technology==how clean can petroleum ever be? How efficient can photo-electric converters get? Battery improvements?
The future is electric. Figuring out the challenges should provide USA with jobs and world leadership. Or not.
Mark, you made me remember something…
Mazda did some research on making a normal gas motor stop when at the lights or any similar situation and then immediately start again when you pressed on the gas. IIRC, the net benefit for city driving was a 20% reduction in fuel consumption. Why is this not on all cars???
A European car mfgr did research into making the flywheel in the transmission also double as the alternator. This also reduced complexity while increasing efficiency. Where is this one???
The Hummer and a few other cars have the cool auto tire inflating thing. If maintaining proper tire pressure is such a big deal, why the hell is this system not on ALL cars???
There are just so many smart little tricks out there that would let things work so much better… But where are they?!?!?!?!
The Hybrid/EV markets are suffering from the classic “delivery of product” vs “technology gains over time”. As well, these product development/assembly are mostly still stuck in the western world.
As soon as the technologies we are talking about today / tomorrow reach reasonable maturity, then the whole product can be put through “Chinafication” (excuse the verbage). Drive the volumes way up, the costs/competitiveness way down… The same thing is happening with Solar Panels for the masses.
Once this happen over the next 5-10 years (which is why we need to stay focused on going the Hybrid/EV way, even if it’s blind hope), most of this discussion will be mute.
The larger issue is going to be infrastructure on the last mile in my opinion. Cities seem to be pushing the mass transit route, citing pollution and traffic as the main issues. Cities will push to have EV/Hybrid, allowing certain perks to those who drive them. In 5-10 years, most people will be purchasing/driving Hybrid/EV, over time those will get to be Zero Emmission… thus taking the pollution factor out of the problems of the cities… great, except there will be no migration to mass transit with “Traffic” being the only problem.
The other issue I also often hear people say is that they can’t wait for an EV or plug in Hybrid. 99% of those people live in large cities. Often, they have two cars. Often, they don’t have a driveway, only street parking.
I then look at them in the eyes and ask them exactly where they plan on plugging this thing in? They usually have a quick answer but usually, they don’t remember that you can’t pull an extension cord from your house to the curb to plug your car in. Often, you don’t get the chance to park in front of your own house. So EV for the longer term, will be very niche.
As well, there is no way the city will build out plug in locations on sidewalks… in the end, it all still needs to be power cable (yes, wireless charging, but we’re talking 20+ years from now for the power needs of a car), it’s a nightmare. Ever try walking down a dock with boats having their extension cords plugged in all over the place. Not a nice walk…
I do think Hybrid technology with 120V plugin option is great. This is where it’s at and where it needs to go. Efficiencies in fuel consumption, flexible fuels, battery/capacitor storage, regenerative systems… the key is to simplify the system, not to put all the whistles in… otherwise, you will be at the repair garage every week in a few short years.
What will really change the game is a battery swap (like Gas station infrastructure, but I highly doubt that will happen) and instant charge capacitors (plug in at a station, wait 5 mins, 90% capactiy ~200miles)… Really, it’s going to be all about electricity in 10-20 years.
The D-D report was skewed but never soundly refuted. The only thing out there was a lot of Op-Ed from the greenies.
As for centralized power production, that is correct all the way. It is far easier in the long run to do EVERYTHING with electricity and then upgrade the power plants as we go along. Any improvements in efficiency or reductions in env impact are shared to ALL consumers of the electricity.
Gasoline power is only abut 25% for those trying to remember. The rest is lost in heat/emissions.
My and others shared annoyance is that the enviro-nuts WAY oversimplify the situation and demand action NOW with no TRUE thought to the future. The whole switch from petroleum to electric needs to be planned out and then executed with long term dedication in mind. There is no solution out there at the moment that can simply be “turned on” and then all the “bad” gas powered cars go away.
And just so things are clear…
I drive nothing but 4-cyl Hondas, have CFLs in all my lights, use a Geothermal HP for heat and A/C and live less than 15 KM from my job. I am not a “greenie” but I am as responsible as I possibly can be for both the environment AND my wallet.
#28 Jason, GM has done the best in this area, and some of it is used in large trucks / buses.
A typical school bus has like 5MPG, they do frequent stops. Most garbage trucks are built on a GM truck frame.
These energy saving technologies need room, only available on large SUVs or trucks.
So far the auto-stop simply requires a larger alternator, and Volks has introduced in some models.
Auto-start, PZEV exhaust, better/accurate air pressure sensors, can be on all cars. The manufacturers think we’re too cheap to pay extra for it, so the US Gov’t needs to mandate it.
What sickens me is the high-end cars like BMW/Mercedes don’t even have the *only 500$* PZEV exhaust, what’s 500$ on a 50,000$ car?