On today’s “Morning Meeting with Dylan Ratigan” on MSNBC, Iowa Senator Charles Grassley, ranking member of the Senate Finance Committee, said that even if the
committee’s final version of a health insurance reform bill gives him everything he says he wants, he will vote against it.
When NBC’s Chuck Todd, in a follow-up question on the show, asked the Iowa Republican if he’d vote against what Grassley might consider to be a “good deal” — i.e., gets everything he asks for from Senate Finance Chairman Max Baucus (D) — Grassley replied, “It isn’t a good deal if I can’t sell my product to more Republicans.”
In short, Grassley says he’s willing to walk away from legislation in which he gets everything he wants. Over to you, Max Baucus…
Why won’t our politicians lead nowadays? Is it really that hard to explain to your constituents why unpopular legislation should be passed? It seems that everyone’s afraid to stick their necks out on anything.
#40, #59:
“A ‘Straw Man’ argument is an argument, usually weak, put up as a diversion from the main argument. It is usually weakly related to the main argument.”
Right.
So when the opposition brings a host of concerns to the table, only ONE of which is the ‘death panel,’ and you attack their position based solely on that, you’re guilty of the straw man.
One concern is the cost. How are we going to pay for this? Obama says that he’s going to squeeze the other programs, that he’s going to fix the programs we already have, and eliminate fraud.
That sounds great, really. I’ll go along with this reform.
So why can’t we do that FIRST, see how it pans out, see if the gov’t really can do that, and IF it works, start another discussion about offering a new health plan?
That makes sense, doesn’t it? We’ve gone this long without a big reform, what’s another couple of years? Shouldn’t we see if we can pay it? If Obama really can squeeze those other programs and take care of the fraud?
Why do we have to ram *everything* through all at once? It doesn’t make sense, and you can’t blame people for being concerned about this.
There’s nothing wrong with reform, but can we please take it one step at a time? To see if we can really do it?
The President needs to prove his case to a country where over half the people are scared of single-payer. Now, I’m not going to change my mind about it because I have philosophical problems with single-payer. BUT, if the president can PROVE that we can pay for it, I might not be such an asshole about it.
But he doesn’t want to do that, doesn’t think he needs to do that. Can you understand why we think we’re getting shafted with this rush job?
Like I said, I’m sitting here as an ‘independent,’ and this rush-don’t-read-it approach is reminding me of the Patriot Act ram-job.
But really, do you guys think taking reform one step at a time is really a bad idea? Before we run up the deficit to astronomical levels? Like Bush did and you all (probably) complained about?
“Aahh, the youth of today.”
Hey, I’m not the one calling you “shit for brains.” That makes YOU look like the child. (I’m 30, btw. Not old, but not a kid either.)
AND I’ve been using the term ‘straw man’ properly, whether or not you want to believe it.
#62 My boss pays my health insurance. I want to keep my current plan. Obama wants a single payer plan. If my insurance company denies my benefits, I can sue in court to overturn that decision. Under Obamacare there is no appeal when you are denied coverage.
Benjamin, Benjamin, Benjamin. You’ll just sue a megamillion dollar insurance company in court, a company with deep pockets and lots of expensive lawyers, that has made an art form of denying claims in order to increase its profits. How delusional can you be?
And it’s obvious you’ve been listening to Insurance Company propaganda. Obama doesn’t want single-payer, he wants competition between insurance companies, with a government-run OPTION for more competition. He also wants you to get coverage for pre-existing conditions if you change Health Insurance Companies, which you don’t have now.
And there’s your straw man in action right there, brm. People like Benjamin are convinced Obama’s trying to push through single-payer right here, right now. Insurance Company propagandists scream SINGLE-PAYER and you just believe. Try reading the actual legislation.
brm said, on August 19th, 2009 at 1:45 am
#34:
“you have shit for brains.”
so that is how you respond to some one who gives you all the information you questioned about criteria of the WHOs ranking and takes the time to respond to your other questions
I’m done with you, you are a rude person
good day sir!
# 33 brm, Talking about government vs. private corporation bankruptcies, can you cite some actual examples.
“bankrupts every other major program”
For every one government program you declare bankrupt, I am sure I and many others can cite 5 recent and actual (not just self declared) private corporation going bankrupt due to greed and corruption; and that, the cost of bankruptcy is even larger then any actual government bankruptcy.
#64 MikeN, don’t make me laugh. Bipartisan compromise, my ass. Republicans have no interest in helping Obama achieve anything. Your number one Republican Rush Limbaugh said it: He hopes Obama fails.
You Republicans got your butts kicked in the last election, and just like in 1992, you’re pissed as hell about it. Never saw such a sorry bunch of sore losers in my life.
The Republican party is so intellectually bankrupt that your only hope of electoral success is to screw up and sabotage anything and everything Obama tries to do, then at the next election say “See? Democrats can’t do anything!”
Republicans are putting their own petty partisan motives above what’s good for America. You don’t care if America stays mired in a recession, with millions of people out of work, losing their homes, etc., as long as it will benefit Republicans.
Why do you hate America so much?
#73:
“For every one government program you declare bankrupt, I am sure I and many others can cite 5 recent and actual (not just self declared) private corporation going bankrupt due to greed and corruption”
I’m sure you could site thousands. That’s not the point.
If a corp goes bankrupt, there’s still an entire industry of competing firms that continue to provide their product.
If we get single-payer, and that goes bankrupt, there’s nothing to take it’s place. And since we won’t be able to get rid of it, we’ll be stuck with it, forever loosing money.
The problem with the gov’t running this biz is that they’ve already bankrupted their own health insurance companies.
And they’ve bankrupted the post office. I mean, they can’t even break even with a *monopoly* for crying out loud!
#74 Phydeau, well put!
I have the same question, why do RePUGNICANS hate common Americans so much?
Is it
a.) It’s not worth a RePUGNICAN time to represent any American who doesn’t contribute more then 1K to the PARTY?
b.) They have Rush Limbaugh head stuck so far up their ass they can’t care what average Americans think?
c.) IT’S BRAIN DAMAGE?
#75 brm, every other civilized country in the world has figured out how to get decent healthcare to all their citizens without bankrupting the government.
Please tell us — what makes us Americans so stupid that we can’t figure it out?
I’m all ears.
#75 Take your time, brm… and keep in mind that some of them have a (gasp!) single payer system (and yet their countries have not gone bankrupt!) and some have a multiple-payer system like Switzerland.
Also keep in mind that various agencies that rate such things have countries with (gasp!) single payer systems rated above ours.
Now, go ahead. Like I said, I’m all ears. What makes Americans so stupid that we can’t figure this out?
I was going to copy over all my covered benefits from my Pacific Blue Cross but the page is much too long. All for $54/month.
We even have this:
“Hospital Daily Cash Benefit
If you are confined to a hospital, we will pay you $20 a day, for up to 90 days, from the 4th day of hospitalization, up to age 65.”
How much does it cost you for each day in the hospital?
#79 How much does it cost you for each day in the hospital?
Um, the way costs are nowadays (hey, those hospitals gotta make a profit too, ya know?) I suspect $20/day might cover your kleenex bill.
Sorry, might have not been clear. Our hospital stays are included in our monthly medicare bill (so no extra cost) *and* we get $20/day after the 4th day.
#66 Mr. Fusion said
“Where is the Constitutional authority?
‘To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;'”
You invoke the interstate commerce clause. Most people don’t travel out of state to seek medical care. I want a doctor in my home town, not in the next state. The Federal government does not have the authority to regulate intrastate commerce. Lawmakers are constantly trying to shoehorn legislature that had nothing to do with goods crossing state lines into this clause. That is contrary to the original intent of this clause.
“This is further defined by the preamble to the Constitution where it states,
‘promote the general Welfare, …’
Don’t they teach kids anything in school anymore?”
I memorized the Preamble in school. The Preamble to the Constitution states the purpose; it does not give powers. Articles I, II, and III give powers to their respective branches. Madison, one of the founders, said that Congressional Authority is limited to Article One, Section 8 which I will not requote here. Our we going to argue as in United States v Butler that any law can be struck down on the basis that it does not promote the general welfare? Why wouldn’t someone use that argument to overturn the DMCA. That law is not promoting the general welfare. And no one would argue that Congressional pay raises promote the welfare of more than 550 individuals.
Before you decide that anything the Congress deems promotes the general welfare, look at this quote attributed to Adam Tyler or de Tocqueville:
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can exist only until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy, always to be followed by a dictatorship.”
Are economic collapse and a dollar that will be worth almost nothing in the general welfare? Congress may borrow money, as in Art I, Sec 8, but out of control government spending will sink this ship.
#82 We’ve passed plenty of laws in the U.S. without Constitutional amendments. What’s your point? Medicare is socialized, single-payer healthcare. Where’s the Constitutional amendment for that?
Your Tyler/de Tocqueville quote applies more to Republicans than Democrats. At least when Democrats spend money, they try to raise taxes to pay for the expenditures. Today’s Republican spends just as much but doesn’t tax, instead runs up a huge deficit, to be paid for by who knows not my problem man. One might suspect that the borrow and spend policy of the Republicans is intended to speed us toward a dictatorship. After all, your hero Dubya said:
“If this were a dictatorship, it’d be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I’m the dictator.” (Washington, D.C., Dec. 19, 2000)
Congress Critters aren’t supposed to be leaders. They are supposed to be representatives. If Grassley or any other member of Congress beleives that what they want isn’t what the people in their state or district want then they should vote agianst it.
#66 – Benjamin,
Also can anyone tell me where in the Constitution authority is given to Congress to pass this health care bill?
Hmm… I don’t claim to be a constitutional scholar. But, the Declaration of Independence seems to have some wording about life, liberty, and the pursuit of
terroristshappiness.Do you see these three being consistent with denial of health care? If so, how?
Besides, I thought from another thread you were religious and probably Christian. Was I mistaken?
If I’m right, and I admit that I may not be, do you think your buddy Jesus checked for citizenship and health insurance before healing the sick? No. He was a bleeding heart liberal, at least according to the legend. You should try to be more like him. No?
Whether you fit that category or not, would someone please tell me how a bunch of followers of a character who is generally described as a commie pinko bleeding heart (literally) lefty liberal would end up voting for the borrow and bomb party and against things like universal health care?
Think!!
Does no one see the contradiction here?
These days, if Jesus ever did come around again (or even a first time), he’d be arrested by homeland security in about 12 nanoseconds.
#75 – brm,
If a corp goes bankrupt, there’s still an entire industry of competing firms that continue to provide their product.
Funny, I didn’t see that entire industry of banks lining up to take the places of the bankrupt ones. They were all hurting severely and most of the big ones were among the worst off.
Ditto for the auto manufacturers.
Pay attention. Times have changed. 28 years of supply side Reaganomics and rampant deregulation has run its course and run this country into the ground. We’re trying to dig ourselves out. We won’t do it with health care costs at 17% of GDP and rising.
#82 – Benji,
A) We’re not a democracy. We have no national election. I realize that this is not really relevant here, but you should be aware of this.
B) Would you really call any country a democracy in effect or in fact if it deliberately targets poor people for an early death?
There is no country in the world that provides every possible health care option for every citizen. In civilized countries, such decisions are made based on effectiveness and costliness of treatment. Here, we decide it based on wealth.
Further, our for-profit, fee-for-service system is set up such that as one nears their end of life, as all people must, those with funds left are intubated and respirated to extend suffering with no hope of healing until they are fully bled dry of all their funds. Then and only then will we unplug the torture apparatus.
Those who would council people on how to avoid such a fate are now seen as peddling death. I think you’ve been drinking the repugnican kool-aid so long that you have no brain cells left.
#86 –> But, the Declaration of Independence seems to have some wording about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Do you see these three being consistent with denial of health care? If so, how?
I am being denied happiness because I don’t own a SUV. I want a big house, lots of beer, a swimming pool, a new shotgun and sex with your wife (mine’s ugly).
I think that’s enough for now.
You think you could get your congressmen to give me those? I mean I am really not happy because I don’t have those.
#89 –> Oops. That was supposed to be from Redneckerson, not Redneck.
Phydeau,the Republicans probably aren’t interested in bipartisan compromise, unless they get a lot of what they want.
Grassley’s statement just says that he won’t put his interests ahead of the party’s preferences.
Something that’s not unusual. It has nothing to do with obstruction(which also happens plenty.) If his party is interested in compromise, he’ll negotiate on their behalf.
I don’t know why people are objecting to this.
#87 Scott:
“Funny, I didn’t see that entire industry of banks lining up to take the places of the bankrupt ones.”
Really? How many thousands of smaller credit unions and savings banks survived the crisis? My small bank is still in biz, and doing just fine.
“28 years of supply side Reaganomics and rampant deregulation has run its course and run this country into the ground.”
I don’t disagree that an improperly regulated financial industry has hurt us, but a big part of our problem is our trade deficit.
Borrowing money to fund the big programs, and loss of industry because we can’t compete on price (thank you unions and minimum wage.)
#77 Phydeau:
“every other civilized country in the world has figured out how to get decent healthcare to all their citizens without bankrupting the government.”
Just because a bunch of relatively tiny, economically and politically homogeneous countries can do it doesn’t mean a huge federation can or should do it.
There is the possibility that we really can’t do it. The system might not scale up that well.
To say that it absolutely can be done is silly.
Here’s a doctor talking about socialized medicine. He brings up good points.
http://tinyurl.com/mlwecu
My favorite lines:
“Medicare rules alone are 133,000 pages in length. This makes the 10,000-page income-tax code look like a model of simplicity.”
“The delegation by the state legislatures to the AMA of the power to regulate the medical industry in the public interest is on a par with giving the American Iron and Steel Institute the power to determine the output of steel.”
“According to a recent article in the Journal of the AMA, modern medicine is the fourth leading cause of death in America, just behind cancer, heart disease, and strokes.”
Now that’s “Status Quo” we can believe in!
#92: It’s easy to blame the unions but they are simply playing the same game as the CEO’s who get more compensation than they deserve. How can anyone dare broach the subject of union pay without talking about limits and caps on CEO and management compensation and golden parachutes? As soon as you do that, the anti-capitalism argument always rears it’s head. The Union’s goal was only to serve to match power with management so that they can’t abuse the individual to enrich only themselves. Granted that there are abuses here also but why should the BoD and management be the only ones allowed to rape the company?
#93–brm==”Just because a bunch of relatively tiny, economically and politically homogeneous countries can do it doesn’t mean a huge federation can or should do it.” /// That being true, it is even more true that such state of affairs doesn’t mean it can’t do it.
Japan is socialized==better health, better outcomes, cheaper, more doctor visits. Worlds Second Largest Economy.
You know brm, when you make such foolish arguments, it pushes the poor arguments that are on the line over into being nonsensical.
I was going to let it go, but since we’re here: Death Panels was the first argument used that caught on with the Ditto Heads to attack the idea of healthcare changes. YOU asked for facts that made the yelling tactic different. I gave the first, best such fact and stated it was only one. You dismiss that as straw man. Your position is that as it was only one of many arguments, it is straw. So==the only response you would accept is a serial listing of ALL the arguments as each one presented individually to make the discussion incremental is invalid straw arguing??????
As stated, you didn’t use the straw argument fallacy correctly. You have only demonstrated continued idiocy in your arguments against universal healthcare. If you prefer, you have straw for brains, more than shit for brains.
And just to finish, saying you have shit for brains is not calling you names. It is characterizing your deficiencies as a human being–an ad hominem attack. All these issues are “close” but always telling when you can’t think your way thru them.
Also VERY DEMONSTRATIVE of the point I made back to you is how Ghost misread your response to Fusion and declared he would not talk to you. See how people who get “offended” at name calling (sic) really display a misordering of priorities?? More shit for brains.
#96:
You still don’t know what a ‘straw man’ is, but whatever.
My arguments against our Federal gov’t being the single payer is that it can’t run it’s other large programs.
If it could, we wouldn’t always be discussing “what to do” about Social Security, Medicare/caid, the VA, Amtrak or the Post Office.
Of course this is the point where someone will say, “but you drive on teh highway!”
If you can say with a straight face that you believe the aforementioned programs are well-run, you’ll have a hard time understanding why the opposition wants to take health care reform one step at a time.
What all members of the opposition have in common is a simple request for some proof that this isn’t going to bankrupt us. A report that says we can find the money while we’re transitioning to single-payer isn’t proof.
Sorry, but it’s obviously not enough, or else people wouldn’t be freaking out. Why does Obama need to enact a new plan while streamlining the existing programs? Can’t he streamline first?
Could we please just find the money before starting another program? It shouldn’t be too much to ask for, and that’s exactly what we’re asking for at these town hall meetings.
#97, That is one of the most lucid posts I’ve read on this subject.
I especially liked the “highway” bit. Like a bankrupt highway system that everyone uses brings something to the proof department.
Two things stand out during any “discussion” with a Democrap. Their colossal ignorance and arrogance. What snarkey little whiners.
What final bill in either the House or the Senate are you discussing? There is none you jerks and when there is a final one it will NOT have a single payer option so you better get used to it. You cannot jam that down the nations throat.
It should say something to you clowns that you are unable to get one of your pet options included when you have a majority everywhere except in the hearts of the people.
#80 FIDO
“Um, the way costs are nowadays (hey, those hospitals gotta make a profit too, ya know?) I suspect $20/day might cover your kleenex bill.”
Thats from paying for all the “undocumented” wetbacks that you guys court for votes.
#55 – Named,
“Can someone please tell me, a poor ignorant foreigner, what VALUE insurance companies provide with regards to health care?”
Well at least you know what you are, thats something. How about paying the hospital bill is that value?
#62 FIDO
Obama (Blessed be his name) doesn’t want single-payer, he wants competition between insurance companies, with a government-run OPTION for more competition.
You think Insurance copanies don’t compete now? Think they form cartels? You poor dumb shit, go to school.
#99 Web – A typical slurred based rant by another Republican low IQ cretin.
Oops.
So many bad talking points that don’t make any sense to the average person is what he’s spewing.
Why don’t you go back home to your Sean Hannity forums where you belong?