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The smoke is getting thick and the mirrors are blinding while the important question is left undiscussed: should we all move to a beach in the Bahamas until this crap is over?
On one side is Sarah Palin writing on her Facebook page and Sen. Chuck Grassley, both using misrepresentation and FUD instead of discussing solutions to the real problems that exist in the current system.
Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) is warning that Americans should be worried about an “end of life” provision in the House health care bill.
“In the House bill, there is counseling for end of life,” Grassley said Wednesday during a town hall in Winterset, Iowa. “You have every right to fear. You shouldn’t have counseling at the end of life, you should have done that 20 years before. Should not have a government run plan to decide when to pull the plug on grandma.”
On the other is Howard Dean who wants retribution against Democrats who question the President’s idiotic mess of a health plan and don’t vote for it.
Former Democratic National Committee chair Howard Dean fired one of the clearest warning shots at hesitant Democratic lawmakers on Thursday, insisting that if the party was unable to produce a health care bill with a public plan, there would be electoral consequences.
“I do think there will be primaries as the result of all this, if the bill doesn’t pass with a public option,” Dean said, in a phone interview with the Huffington Post.
The former Vermont governor added the caveat that he thought “cooler heads” would ultimately prevail and that a government run option for insurance coverage would be passed. But his remarks are some of the most threatening yet to be directed at Democrats from within the party.
I’m still waiting for your plan.
We single-payer liberals believe we can reduce costs by getting everyone insured, lowering the per-person costs.
We also believe that taking the huge profit out of insurance means lower premiums.
We also believe ending the vastly-more-expensive use of emergency rooms for primary care will save money.
We believe that allowing the government to negotiate the price of drugs will reduce that cost.
We also believe that paying for outcomes rather than more and more proceedures will lower the costs.
We believe that a “government option” will bring REAL competitiveness to the insurance companies.
And, yes, believe-it-or-not, we beleive that tort reform could lower the costs by a couple of percent.
And more.
If your have better ideas, I’d like to hear them Seriously. I really would.
Oh, we also believe that doubling the cost of health insurance every 8 to 10 years is unsustainable. Eventually, the cost of health insurnace will be more than the salary!
We believe that insurance companies should not be allowed to dump customers just because they got an expensive illness.
We don’t believe that insurance company agents should be able to get between a doctor and his patient.
We think it is crazy that Americans pay WAY MORE but get WAY LESS than other developed nations.
Yet, best I can tell, conservatives think all he above is fine-and-dandy. They sure has hell oppose reforming any of it.
>># 32 Faxon said,
>> And, by the way, we really do need a few more G5 Personal Jets to take our families and pals to Paris or Beijing.”
How come I never hear conservatives complain about jets being owned by insurance executives, paid for by DENYING claims for desperately-needed healthcare?
(I also don’t remember you complaining about the government owning jets when Bush was in power!)
So, I don’t get off-topic…
Faxon,
What is your proposal to stop the price of healthcare doubling every few years, eventually collapsing the system?
All the name calling from both sides and shouting is doing nothing.
But explain why any one would want to entrust the government to run anything?
They are claiming they can cut costs and improve efficiency. Please provide examples where either of those worked out.
Approximately 1,500 people EVERY MONTH are dying from lack of health insurance.
My solution to that is single-payer, like other developed countries do. It’s cheaper, better results and everybody is covered.
What plan do you CONSERVATIVES have to end 1,500 needless deaths every month?
By the way, I really would like an answer to that question.
My uber-conservative uncles are in a near panic at the mere rumor that their _government run_ health care _might_ be altered.
Why is that? Seriously, can any conservative explain this to me. It’s a true mystery.
I have an idea. How about you read the bill before you start arguing.
It’s HB3200 for those who don’t know or who haven’t taken the time to look at any of it for themselves and are listening to the ‘tards on the left and ‘tards on the right.
While I think “death-panel” is a term used for scare value (scares me) I just read the appropriate pages and it sure as hell reads like the government appointee is going to be thee one making your life decisions based on quality of life and cost. Oh sure they say they are going to council you every 5 years or less if need but but when it comes down to treating you for serious cardiac issues the government is stepping to say hold on there. We can’t afford that.
Since some of you can’t use Google:
(It formats like crap but you can get the idea)
‘‘(B) The level of treatment indicated under subpara12
graph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treat13
ment to an indication to limit some or all or specified
14 interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may in15
clude indications respecting, among other items—
16 ‘‘(i) the intensity of medical intervention if the
17 patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac
18 or pulmonary problems;
19 ‘‘(ii) the individual’s desire regarding transfer
20 to a hospital or remaining at the current care set21
ting;
22 ‘‘(iii) the use of antibiotics; and
23 ‘‘(iv) the use of artificially administered nutri24
tion and hydration.’’.
VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:51 Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00430 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 C:\TEMP\AAHCA0~1.XML HOLCPC
July 14,
If I’m wrong one of you arm chair idiots will try and point it out to me but please tell me exactly what page to refer to because I have the bill right here with me.
My mom is on Medicare and I’m on an HMO.
She chose her doctor, goes when she wants and says that she had NEVER been denied a proceedure.
My HMO chose my doctor for me, delays appointments by up to two months and had denied my daughter a procedure that her doctor said would work.
And for THIS privilege, I pay through the nose!
Great system, conservatives!
Well, I can’t wait around forever to get a factual, informed response from the conservatives.
Bye.
#44 Greg Allen…
Sorry to see your impatience. I did not imply you specifically were name calling or shouting. I was referring to the town halls, blogs, TV, etc. in general. There are very few facts being discussed anywhere.
Please explain how the Feds will make healthcare available to all, at lower cost and with better care. Facts please. From anyone would be nice.
As for the hypocritical seniors about no government interference vs. their Medicare, they are indeed ignorant. Just as ignorant as the blind supporters of this bill.
What I’ve gotten out of the health care bill debate could have been written on a few pages.
Every system of insurance normally has limits on what you get for your money.
Members of the Obama admin at various times and the bills themselves make it clear the people in the age group 15 to 40 are the people most worth investing large sums of money in including illegals.
While people with pre existing health issues will be covered based on the English modal and what Obama’s friends/advisers have said and even things Obama has said people who are older or younger, over weight or have chronic health issues are going to get less. This is a reasonable and prudent use of money but it leaves the outs to take care of themselves or die.
Do expect to wait in line because this is a fact of life with all government plans everywhere.
We are told that medicare is going to vastly expand coverage for the same money and that they are going to do this by cutting out wastes. The only way you can recover that kind of money is cut hugely the amount of money spent on seniors in the last few years they live.
You can call the people that do this a death panel, euthanasia incorporated or people engaged in seeing to it that the government is getting the most bang for its buck. The results are going to be the same. Public health care for seniors is going to suck. If you are a senior get over it. You are no longer profitable so go ahead and die if you can’t cover the bills yourself.
As for Obama’s personal take on this sort of thing: When his grandmother had cancer and fell and broke her hip he said he would pay for joint replacement because it was unreasonable to expect the government to cover things like that. Fare enough as long as you have the cash.
The Chinese are on record that no matter how much butt kissing our government does we are going to have to come up with some way to pay for the Health plan or they won’t buy our bonds.
If they don’t all we have left is the printing press and taxation and one means run away inflation and the taxation means the private sector is going to be much to broke to create jobs. We are bleeped.
How England or California are going to balance there budget next year is way beyond me unless they do things that are truly ruinous and we are walking in their footsteps.
If one more lack witted Congress Critter says we need universal health care in order to compete with the Chinese I’m going to scream!
We beat the bleep out of the Chinese for decades without Universal Health Care and we are on the verge of completely tanking now and the cost may well push us past the point of no return.
I don’t care what you make you can only spend so much and run up so much dept before you go under.
One way to convince me this plan is so wonderful would be for Congress and the White House to cancel their elite healthcare and take what the rest of us would get in the proposals.
Ok Conservatives==we are on a sinking boat and changes are being suggested. You are criticizing what you don’t like about the life boats while staying on the sinking boat. I wish it was a sinking boat instead of healthcare.
The one thing that would convince me of the wonderfulness of the proposals would be if Angels from on High floated down with golden laurels to confirm for us it was the perfect thing to do.
But we live in a world of trial and error. Stumbling towards a better system.
We won’t have cost savings until for-profit is eliminated from Government Reimbursement. Its only Obama’s inane attempt to compromise with Repuglicans that is corrupting his plan for change.
Sin – gle – Pay – or!
Sin – gle – Pay – or!
Sin – gle – Pay – or!
If not now, then later. Its the only approach that will ultimately “work” as our economy goes down the drain.
Single payer will send the economy the rest of the way down the toilet – but that’s OK we won’t be alive to see it because of single payer.
Still no one explaining why I should trust the government. Here are some reasons I don’t:
–> Cash for Clunkers Lack of financial market oversight/bank de-regulation VA Hospitals Medicare/Medicaid Funding Pork Barrel Spending/Special Interest NAFTA Federal bailouts Federal Stimulus Social Security Funding Mortgage Rescues $500 Hammers Congressional enforcement of habeas corpus and the Constitution post-9/11 Digital TV Conversion Tax Code <–
For regular Joes, there's not much to it. But for the wealthy, it's a game. A costly game involving accountants and lawyers on one side and politicians and the IRS on the other. Think of tax laws when you think of health laws this bill and the ones to further "fix" it are put in place.
Why suddenly is everyone turning to government after generations (and multiple parities) of laughing at it's corruption and inefficiency?
Still no one explaining why I should trust the government. Here are some reasons I don’t:
–> Cash for Clunkers
Sure the money went fast. Free money to anyone that wants it! But what about the long term costs? How about the repair shops and used car dealers that got left out? What happens when the “stimulus” ends? Detroit started rebates decades ago and never found a way to stop. How about Congress wildly misplanning in how much money would be needed? Now more money for everyone! Make everyone happy!
–> Lack of financial market oversight/bank de-regulation
–> VA Hospitals
–> Medicare/Medicaid Funding
apologies… messed up my tags… embarrassing but my points still hold true…
If we can fund everyone’s healthcare, how about ending the need for supplemental Medicare insurance payments?
Pork Barrel Spending/Special Interest
You really think the medical and insurance industries are just going to roll over? Naive to trust any politician with your future…
NAFTA
Federal bailouts
Bonuses anyone?
Federal Stimulus
A road by my home finally got a much needed resurfacing. But I could have lived without the thought of more debt. And while on vacation this summer, I went through 4 interstate construction zones that were nowhere close to needing new pavement. But the signs proudly stated it was putting people to work – in areas with more political clout.
Social Security Funding
The perennial ‘kick the problem to the next guy in office’ issue…
Mortgage Rescues
“We are going to save people’s homes!” Yet report after report shows the mortgage companies are dragging their feet. Nice oversight and control Congress. Great experience for running healthcare.
$500 Hammers
Oh it still happens… like the Feds are any better than the medical/insurance/ambulance chaser industries…
Congressional enforcement of habeas corpus and the Constitution post-9/11
I didn’t hear many Dem politicians jumping up and down at the time. Only when politically convenient. Typical. And so trusting we should be. Yes Obama voted against Iraq. But he and his team are keeping too many Bush policies.
Digital TV Conversion
This one was simple. A gimmie for a Democratic Congress. If only Bush/Cheney hadn’t got in the way, right? Convert from analog signal frequencies to new digital signal frequencies. Something much of the civilized world has done already. So… we needed Federal financial support to buy converter boxes. And the program runs out of money. And the deadlines get pushed out again. Great project management.
Tax Code
For regular Joes, there’s not much to it. But for the wealthy, it’s a game. A costly game involving accountants and lawyers on one side and politicians and the IRS on the other. Think of tax laws when you think of health laws this bill and the ones to further “fix” it are put in place.
Why suddenly is everyone turning to government after generations (and multiple parities) of laughing at it’s corruption and inefficiency?
#50–Evil==who said trust? Framing any issue that way is beyond stupid. Not even naive. Silly.
Yes, government is a very bad institution/acitivity to turn to. Too bad all the others are worse.
See USPO above and argue against the benefits/worth of that program compared to its for profit alternative.
BTW Uncle Dave==good caption and excellent photo. Just that little bit of cleverness/interest that makes the blog worthwhile.
# 52 bobbo
Typical American. Vote for the least worst. Even worse is if you are actively supporting the bill knowing it’s inherent flaws. Not silly in that case. Reckless.
As for the USPO, I am shocked by recent developments. They are acting as a true for profit enterprise. Demand is down so regression is appropriate.
BTW Uncle Dave==good caption and excellent photo. Just that little bit of cleverness/interest that makes the blog worthwhile.
I disagree (I must) with the picture. I better not have nightmares with those two tonight. Scary. My eyes are burning. Cartoons of political pork would have been much appreciated.
Misrepresentation???
Obama’s “health czar” writes that only the productive should receive health care, Obama says that the elderly should suck it up and take painkillers instead of getting a hip replacement, and said in the near past that his goal is single payer but it would take a while to get rid of the insurance companies.
It’s representation, the left is just upset that their guys talk so much about their goals when the obvious tact is to lie and try to pull the wool over people’s eyes.
#58–Evil==when I comment that someone isn’t making sense, I don’t expect/need/desire further proof of it.
Waiting for Godot is your response? A red herring==I don’t believe you.
Anyone can rationally choose a $5.00 overnight service over 3 Day .43 cent delivery but it is ASININE, not evil, ASININE, to think most people, any reasonable person, would think it would be appropriate/legitimate to “DO AWAY WITH THE .43 SERVICE.”
You must be sleepy or hungry to reveal so much of your perversion. Yes, you went from questionable to ASININE. Could never have shown it by myself, only suspected it===as I do of all Repuglicans and LIEBERTARIANS now.
Heh, heh. “I got mine, not happy unless I ruin what you’ve got.”==Well done.
Daschle says health-care reform will not be pain free. Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them.
Gee, that sure sounds like they want to cut them off to me.
But, let’s move on past that for now.
There is not a single government program that has ever produced a product more efficiently than the private sector.
There are several efficient non-industry specific agencies (OSHA is a good example), but anytime the Federal Government tries to do something already being done by the private sector or control an industry in the private sector, they screw it up. History has shown this.
Is it the government’s fault? Well, there sure is a lot money on the table.
To think that a government run health-care program of this size can be immune to that lobby money and still actually do some good . . . well, I want some of what you’re smoking. It’s amazing people think this will work.
How do you propose to keep the lobbyists’ fingers out of the pie?
THE PRESIDENT: So that’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues. But that’s also a huge driver of cost, right?
I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health care bill out here.
DAVID LEONHARDT: So how do you — how do we deal with it?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that’s part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It’s not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that’s part of what I suspect you’ll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now.
For all the talk that Big Insurance is rationing just like Big Government, insurance companies can’t deny you the ability to pay fort your own treatments.
People pushing for this health care bill are calling for SINGLE payer, so any denied treatments means you are stuck. Already, elderly on Medicare are not allowed to pay for additional treatments, at least from doctors who accept Medicare.
As a physician, I have seen the best and the worst of American medicine. And, since I have traveled and worked in many other nations, I’ve seen pretty much how it can work all around the world. I do believe the US system works very well much of the time but does leave a lot to be desired.
So, just let me say here, I have no fundamental problem with revamping the US system. But I do have problems with the “we gotta do it NOW” approach. Instead of having contentious town hall meetings debating a bill no one has read, we should be having town hall meetings to find out what people would like to have in the bill. We need a participatory approach to such major, nation changing, legislation. Six months or so of data gathering across the country and then a deliberative bipartisan committee carefully drafting a bill without the influence of lobbyists or the distraction of a deadline. We’ve seen the disaster of rushed legislation, most recently in the stimulus bill with it’s tons of non-stimulating pork. Let’s slow down and THINK for a change…
#63–Animby==fine sentiments. Want to get real? Clinton in 1991, Obama in 2009==vested interests pull out all the stops. Lies. Delays. Poison Pills.
Not a rational process.
Requesting a rational process puts you off the game board.
No, its the rough and tumble world of political sausage making. I don’t think its coming this year.
Looks like we have to be closer to bankruptcy to get any meaningful change. Just like healthcare (health of the individual) itself.
Any of you in favor of government health care here able to answer these questions?
1. WHY is the cost of health care increasing so much faster than inflation?
2. WHAT can the government do to solve this problem aside from limiting amount of care or forcing doctors, who barely see a dime until at least 10 years after they start school, to work for less money. Any fundamental solution other than rationing health care or reducing quality of health care?
3. If the government doesn’t fully understand WHAT the problem is and HOW to fix it, WHY should we trust them to fix it?
And for extra credit: Why has has the cost of education been increasing at a rate much higher than inflation, just as health care has been. I believe that a major part of both problems has to do with government giving out more money for both, which increases demands. If anyone has any better explanation for what these two have in common I would like to hear it.
Hey, Animby==just yanking your chain. I know it is rare for you to be treated as an equal, much more rare to be looked down on? I assume you relish the juxtaposition. I know I do. Love to be taken to task. Always refreshing. Keeps me “in touch.”
You have been more revealing about your particulars in earlier posts. Gave up quite a bit when some threads were addressing health tourism in Thailand. Don’t know why it stuck with me.
The list for cost/price/charge inflation in healthcare is much longer of course. Living longer might well be the greatest factor of all–or dying in the hospital rather than at home?
I doubt you would ever hesitate to represent yourself “as” yourself. I’d say my post #64 is closer to real and half the reason I was short tempered with cranky.
“I” think healthcare reform has been way too long in coming and I don’t see it coming soon. Some arguments are honest, others aren’t===and often its the same argument, just made by different people.
Thats why in dispair–I am for *any* change just to get the change rolling. Status quo tyrany has reigned for too long.