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The smoke is getting thick and the mirrors are blinding while the important question is left undiscussed: should we all move to a beach in the Bahamas until this crap is over?
On one side is Sarah Palin writing on her Facebook page and Sen. Chuck Grassley, both using misrepresentation and FUD instead of discussing solutions to the real problems that exist in the current system.
Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) is warning that Americans should be worried about an “end of life” provision in the House health care bill.
“In the House bill, there is counseling for end of life,” Grassley said Wednesday during a town hall in Winterset, Iowa. “You have every right to fear. You shouldn’t have counseling at the end of life, you should have done that 20 years before. Should not have a government run plan to decide when to pull the plug on grandma.”
On the other is Howard Dean who wants retribution against Democrats who question the President’s idiotic mess of a health plan and don’t vote for it.
Former Democratic National Committee chair Howard Dean fired one of the clearest warning shots at hesitant Democratic lawmakers on Thursday, insisting that if the party was unable to produce a health care bill with a public plan, there would be electoral consequences.
“I do think there will be primaries as the result of all this, if the bill doesn’t pass with a public option,” Dean said, in a phone interview with the Huffington Post.
The former Vermont governor added the caveat that he thought “cooler heads” would ultimately prevail and that a government run option for insurance coverage would be passed. But his remarks are some of the most threatening yet to be directed at Democrats from within the party.
The Repugs “dirty fighting” is in polluting/lying in the PUBLIC ARENA==directly aimed at the dumbsh*t publick using brown shirt tactics.
The Dems have done no such thing. Twisting party member’s arms is called “politcal discipline.”
Big differences not to be lost in the misguided urge to make everything equivalent. “Most things”—-aren’t.
The Democrats even had one of their organizers pretend to be a doctor at a townhall meeting.
#2 MikeN
So – death panels.
Would you say that was dirty fighting or not?
#2–Mike==I believe such things happen. Would love to get the details. Link please?
The D’s are amateurs compared to the R’s when it comes to party discipline.
I’ve still yet to hear why the Gov. feels that they have to be the ‘solution’ to this issue.
Just cause its ‘broken’ doesnt’ mean they are the ones to ‘fix’ it…yes?
#6–Thunker==why are you documenting the dismal state of your entrenched ignorance? “I’m a Repuglican and proud of it.”
Lets see==what are the business opportunities in providing a needed service for people who CAN’T AFFORD TO PAY FOR IT!! Yes, healthcare–excellent subject for the free market.
On a tangent but it pissed me off everytime it is used: The USPO is in fact an EXCELLENT EXAMPLE of how good a service the Government can run, day in and day out.
What a topsy turvey world we live in.
#7
and by USPO you mean? US post office or US patent office?
I fail to see why you would go out of your way to slander the person of the comment you were responding to.
You can just respond you know…
The “death panel” illusion comes from the same group of magicians that say you need to accept Jesus or you will face a “death panel” for your soul.
It’s appropriate and legitimate to object to the dead hand of government being placed on 1/6th of our economy.
Bobbo, your hostile response to a simple question is dumb. Are you unable to answer him civilly? ’cause that is what your response tells us.
By the way, the USPO is OK NOW. It certainly still does not measure up in any way to the quality of service available in the private sector. But it was absurdly bad 20 years ago. Why are they better now? Competition from the private sector. How old are you?
What gets MY goat is all of this squeamishness about vigorous political fighting. We’re a vast, diverse commercial republic. We’re MEANT to be divided against ourselves in a thousand ways, none of which cut to the quick. We’ve got divided government EXPLICITLY because the branches will contend with each other and therefore none can dominate. Hell, even our media and the overall ‘level’ of public discourse is soft and cuddly compared to 100 years ago- at least now it’s not fair game to bring your opponents’ mama into things.
Let’s fight! It’s WHO WE ARE, and it’s a big part of the reason we are the preeminent nation on earth today.
http://patterico.com/2009/08/12/roxana-mayer-im-not-a-doctor-but-i-play-one-at-town-hall-meetings/
#10–bob==heh, heh. Why don’t you figure out which side of the fence you are on and be consistent? Its fair to naively criticize my hostility but how then turn around and recommend even worse in the political arena? If there was to be different standards, I’d think it would be just the reverse? People isolated on a blog given more license than people gathered together with their elected representatives?
Too subtle for me.
#8–whiteout==because I think “Thinker” is posing as an innocent when he is nothing of the sort.
BTW==where was the slander? As a pure fact matter, isn’t claiming such ignorance of the issue rather entrenched? And why is calling someone a Repuglican slander? THAT seems more slanderous to me. Was it the typo???
Haw, haw.
Post Office–43 cents a letter.
Private Service–what is it==$5.00?
Typical repuglican “I got mine, screw you.” Probably think our healthcare is the best money can buy too. Ooops. It is certainly that.
But what if you just want a .43 cent service??? We have it for mail, not for healthcare.
#10 Uh, bob, there’s fighting, and then there’s willfully lying and misrepresenting your opponent’s side. I don’t consider that fair fighting.
>So – death panels.
>Would you say that was dirty fighting or not?
Pres. Obama has talked about how we are spending so much money on the last six months of life.
The stimulus package had billions for Health Information Technology and ‘Comparative Effectiveness Research’ to identify cost inefficiencies, similar to Britain’s NICE program. The NICE program is the one that denies treatments, just recently recommending not paying for back pain. Previously they have disallowed cancer drugs and hip replacements, based on being more costly than their estimate for “quality adjusted life year” (QALY).
If you are now giving incentives for doctors to consult you on end-of-life care, and the government saves money by having patients die sooner, I don’t think this is out of bounds for political debate.
#11–Mike==thanks. Interesting read. A warning for all people who get their news from unchecked sources.
People who “really care” are a menace.
People like “me” except I don’t lie. Often wrong, but never lie.
You have to chuckle sometimes though==people lying to gain credibility. Hah, hah.
This dispute is pretty simple when you do what investigative reporters say — follow the money.
The insurance companies and everyone else who’s making a profit off healthcare stand to lose big if any kind of healthcare reform is passed. It’s funny, they say government-run healthcare won’t work. But behind the scenes, they’re fighting to the death the public option — basically the government offering a competing health plan. Because they know they can’t compete. They take so much of our healthcare dollars in profit that they know they couldn’t beat the price of a health plan that has no profit in it.
And because the insurance companies have big bucks, they have big lobbyists and big PR firms working overtime to convince us to keep things the way they are.
#15–Awwwhhhh Mickey===how come your roll never lasts more than one revolution?
Does what you post make sense to you or is it totally manipulated?
Why should I even ask? Worse than lying to achieve credibility is lying to look stupid.
Well done.
#15 MikeN: lying like a wingnut or just stupid?
Dude, health care rationing ALREADY HAPPENS. The big insurance companies do it EVERY DAY. You don’t think they want people to hurry up and die so they don’t have to pay for expensive treatments? Every treatment they pay for takes profit directly off their bottom line! Wall Street needs them to have acceptable profits!
Every horror story you wingnuts gin up about healthcare reform is already happening, with “big insurance” in place of “big government”. But big insurance adds the insult of charging you more, because they gotta hit those Wall Street numbers.
#15 MikeN
>>So – death panels.
>>Would you say that was dirty fighting or not?
> I don’t think this is out of bounds for political debate.
So I’ll take that to mean that you don’t think it’s dirty fighting.
So you think waving around ‘death panels’ is fair enough. Either that you believe that Obama literally has ‘death panels’ who will choose when granny dies, or that it doesn’t matter if he doesn’t but it’s a reasonable thing to say he does because it is ‘inside the bounds of political debate’.
If that’s what you think is reasonable debate – then I’m not sure we can debate. Because it’s clearly scaremongering. You know it. I know. Hell – the Republicans know it, and some even have the guts to admit it.
No wonder debate is so polarized nothing insightful is said.
#10 bob
>Let’s fight! It’s WHO WE ARE, and it’s a big part of the reason we are the preeminent nation on earth today.
Sounds like you think anything goes. Fighting doesn’t mean making up a bunch of scaremongering rubbish.
It certainly isn’t the reason why ‘we are the preeminent nation on earth today’. Because no meaningful discussions can be had if the majority of it is meaningless scaremongering disinformation.
Unless you mean fighting as in ww2.
I cant find it..
The survival rate in the USA from birth to death.
#19 Phydeau
Exactly.
I really don’t know why they claim that with the current system that the Insurance companies – do just that and worse. And you pay them more for the privilege.
>> MikeN said,
>> The Democrats even had one of their organizers pretend to be a doctor at a townhall meeting.
Got a link for that?
Excuse me for not taking your word.
The conservatives have proven themselves to be such shameless lying jerks.
You’ll hear a conservative say a sentence with three points about health care and there will be four lies in it!
The survival rate in the USA from birth to death. = zero.
Greg–I thought you showed “some” respect for all those here.
but no.
Continue posting without regard to the thread.
I sincerely hope this is a one off error?
Heh, heh. I’ll bet you won’t even apologize as you should, even with this encouragement.
I apologize for seeing that MikeN did post a link.
I read the link — it didn’t back up Mike’s claim that “”The Democrats even had one of their organizers pretend to be a doctor at a townhall meeting.
The woman admits to lying (which I condemn!) But I saw no reference to Mike’s claim (lie?) that the Democrats made her do it or that she was an “organizer.” (whatever the heck that is!)
OK, you found one Dem liar. There are probably others but the vast majority of Democrats are telling the truth about the problems in health care and the need for reform.
But turn on conservative talk radio and there is LIE after LIE after LIE for hours and hours on end, with no stop!
#26–Greg==well done. You are a scholar and a gentlemen.
The next time you apologize, drop the quibbling.
Next, we’ll move on to what you should have learned in high school.
Oops. I flubbed my apology — I apologize for _not_ seeing Mike’s link.
Like most Dems I respect and am eager to discuss HONEST, TRUTHFUL concerns about health care.
But these lies about “death panels” “rationing” “pulling the plug on grandma” “taking away medicare” “commie government take over” etc are just too stupid and cynical to even entertain.
Here is my honest question for Republicans — how do we get affordable healthcare to people of low income and pre-existing conditions?
What is your plan? (and for the love of God, please don’t say “tort reform.” or “tax cuts for the rich.”)
OK, Bobo,
What did I miss in high school? That it’s common for black men to secretly be Nazis like Obama? And a communist, as well!
The lies the conservatives are saying about Obama are just relentless. He’s not a Nazi. Or a communist. Or a Muslim.
#29 Whew! That’s a relief! Er.. What exactly IS he?