From the Denver POST
If the only way we compared the two systems – U.S. versus Canada – was with statistics, there is a clear victor. It is becoming increasingly more difficult to dispute the fact that Canada spends less money on health care to get better outcomes.
Yet, the debate rages on. Indeed, it has reached a fever pitch since President Barack Obama took office, with Americans either dreading or hoping for the dawn of a single-payer health care system. Opponents of such a system cite Canada as the best example of what not to do, while proponents laud that very same Canadian system as the answer to all of America’s health care problems…
As America comes to grips with the reality that changes are desperately needed within its health care infrastructure, it might prove useful to first debunk some myths about the Canadian system.
Myth: Taxes in Canada are extremely high, mostly because of national health care.
In actuality, taxes are nearly equal on both sides of the border. Overall, Canada’s taxes are slightly higher than those in the U.S. However, Canadians are afforded many benefits for their tax dollars, even beyond health care (e.g., tax credits, family allowance, cheaper higher education), so the end result is a wash. At the end of the day, the average after-tax income of Canadian workers is equal to about 82 percent of their gross pay. In the U.S., that average is 81.9 percent.
Myth: Canada’s health care system is a cumbersome bureaucracy.
The U.S. has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world. More than 31 percent of every dollar spent on health care in the U.S. goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, etc. The provincial single-payer system in Canada operates with just a 1 percent overhead. Think about it. It is not necessary to spend a huge amount of money to decide who gets care and who doesn’t when everybody is covered.
Not so incidentally, single-payer systems run by the U.S. government can approach Canadian efficiency. Medicare and Social Security run at less than 3% overhead.
Myth: The Canadian system is significantly more expensive than that of the U.S.Ten percent of Canada’s GDP is spent on health care for 100 percent of the population. The U.S. spends 17 percent of its GDP but 15 percent of its population has no coverage whatsoever and millions of others have inadequate coverage. In essence, the U.S. system is considerably more expensive than Canada’s. Part of the reason for this is uninsured and underinsured people in the U.S. still get sick and eventually seek care. People who cannot afford care wait until advanced stages of an illness to see a doctor and then do so through emergency rooms, which cost considerably more than primary care services.
What the American taxpayer may not realize is that such care costs about $45 billion per year, and someone has to pay it. This is why insurance premiums increase every year for insured patients while co-pays and deductibles also rise rapidly.
Myth: Canada’s government decides who gets health care and when they get it. While HMOs and other private medical insurers in the U.S. do indeed make such decisions, the only people in Canada to do so are physicians. In Canada, the government has absolutely no say in who gets care or how they get it. Medical decisions are left entirely up to doctors, as they should be.
RTFA. The article continues on to examine more myths…and lies.
Thanks, Cinaedh
#17..jeraa2t
Maybe Quebec’s is poor, but they don’t want to be a part of Canada anyway. They still insist on restricting their children from learning to speak English because they might learn something other than what the ruling elite want them to know. Very similar to North Korea and Iran in that aspect.
In the ROC, (rest of Canada) the only people who complain are the ones who spend their winters in Florida and have to buy medical insurance like the Americans do. They are upset that they can’t get treatment in the US hospitals for free on their health care plan as if they were at home.. When was the last time your insurance paid for health care in a foreign land? Remember those machines in airports where you can buy insurance for travels abroad..
I have medicare and a supplemental insurance. I also live on the Canadian border. They won’t give me free care over there either. But I wish I could go over there for health problems as I still can’t afford it here with all my insurance until after the deductibles are met. There are no or few deductibles in Canada. A stroke and three weeks of hospital care cost a good friend $47.
#33 – Don Quixote – Maybe Quebec’s is poor, but they don’t want to be a part of Canada anyway.
They’ll stay as long as the billions come rolling.
#34 – Mr. Fusion
Good post.
RE #34,
I missed the lab, which has several people, X-Ray and diagnostic imaging, which also have several people and must be staffed around the clock.
Before Congress votes on anything… lets rememeber…most of the congress (persons) Individually are Millionares, so their perspective will always be tainted by their personal interest. Repub or Dem. And Letting the Representatives/Senators stay in washington for ever and a day, simply lets them forget about their constituants… example: Olympia Snowe has been in washington so Long I doubt she can find Maine on the map, and that goes for a whole host of others as well… Their should be term limits. Then Special interest would remain less powerful. Why not abolish the ability to Lobby all togehter?? That would also illiminate some of the special interest. We have allot of things to fix in our Government, lets hope a health reform bill can be passed that people can actualy use, wont be over complicated, that will eventually conme out of washington. I doubt it..and whos to say the Republicans wont scap it next time around?.. Rule of the day…back to what can I get out of this….ha?… nothing ever really changes… A Pure Capitalist will always want to screw the little guy for a penny. We needa happy medium and a system we can be proud of, right now we have neither..
The common talking points from ignorant conservatives is “it takes 6 months to see the doctors in Canada”, which is total crap.
My wife lived in Canada for 48 years and has never had to wait for “urgent care” such as a cold or worse. “elective” care does take second place there.
The US is just the opposite. My HMO is so short of primary doctors, I cannot get an appointment for an illness for 3-4 weeks, but if I wanted surgery they could do that in the morning. (As long as I have insurance, that is.)
In the US, you spend more time at the doctor’s office wating for office staff to prepare the paperwork then you do talking to the doctor.
In 2008 the United States spent 711 billion dollars on the military. China spent 122 billion dollars. Why are we spending this much money on our war machine when that money could be put to use here at home? Eventually we wont have the money to continue this recklessness. Draw down the military now while we can still do it responsibly.
#8, #10, #11
Another one for the stack. Canadian doctor sends child to USA for treatment.
Where are the articles about USA doctors sending patients to Canada?
Hmmmm?
http://bit.ly/f5323
Good point in the article that nails the inherent problem of socialized medicine.
http://bit.ly/f5323
“Why wasn’t there a NICU bed for the child in the entire nation of Canada? Because the government of Canada won’t pay for more. They don’t exist to expand supply to meet demand; their single-payer system exists to ration care as a cost-saving mechanism.”
#42 jbenson2
Americans prefer India which probably reflects the US outsourcing more accurately. In most things, it doesn’t make sense to send to Canada (nearshore vs farshore).
What I do see (anecdotally) are American couples I know who have moved to Canada will move their parents here when they get sick. In both cases, it’s the patients not the doctors who make the decision.
Patients go across borders all the time. Get used to it.
Just because gov’t could do something as good or better than private industry, doesn’t mean that it *should* do it.
There is no way that a single-payer system can work in the U.S., because “government is bad, let’s make sure it gets even worse” Republicans (and Democrats who have received large campaign contributions from the insurance companies) would do everything they can to sabotage it, should it actually come into being.
From a philosophical perspective, there is an inherent problem with taxes. Being born somewhere, having “benefits” forced upon you, and then being expected to pay for those benefits because of you place of birth doesn’t make any sense. It’s like painting someones house without them asking for it, then demanding money for your work.
From a practical standpoint however, I do see how taxes in current form are better than some alternatives, but I would really want a middle road, where you at least could opt out of this ‘insurance’. I live in Sweden and we have extremely high taxes. Including VAT and all those things, about half of what I earn goes to the state, and I sure as hell don’t get many benefits that I actually want. Healt care is ok I guess, but non-critical operations means that you have to wait… for a long long time before getting your surgery.
#42 jbenson2
I was just talking with my neighbour (block bbq this afternoon). She’s an administrator for a private eye surgery clinic that handles both lasik (corrective surgery) non-lasik (injury, emergency, etc) procedures here in town. I asked her how many non-lasik (real medical problems) they do for US citizens.
She said they do 3-5 each week. Mainly overflow from Montana, Idaho, and Utah. Some weeks it’ll reach 20. On the lasik side (pay yourself) about 4% of their business is American. I guess this cross border stuff goes on all the time.
The numbers used in the article are screwy, notably the % of total healthcare spent on overhead. There are several ways to run the numbers of course, but during the last two years while I’ve earned a masters in health care administration I’ve never seen overhead numbers remotely close to those cited. 1% overhead for Canada’s system?? 3% for Medicare and Social Security?? What are the sources?
Republicans love
Truthiness
Truthiness: a term used to describe things that a person claims to know intuitively or “from the gut” without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts.
#43, benson
More fud.
Why wasn’t there a NICU bed for the child in the entire nation of Canada? Because the government of Canada won’t pay for more.
Opinion does not make fact. A good question is why there aren’t more NICU beds available. But instead of in Canada. IT WAS THE REGION. Buffalo is 60 miles from Hamilton. It makes much more sense to transfer a baby 60 miles than 300+ to Ottawa or Montreal or any other large city that might have had a bed available. Transporting anyone that sick is a very dangerous problem.
My wife’s hospital uses a helecopter medi-evac for those above the capability of her hospital. So why do they ship severly injured people to a Trauma Level 1 in Fort Wayne, 100 miles away, instead of South Bend or Chicago, both much closer? It sure isn’t because of the cost or convenience to the family.
The rest of that was pur bullshit opinion with no fact. And quite wrong too.
#42, #42 – jbenson2,
Both of those links are to the same blog. Do you really think an isolated case makes your point?
OK then. My mother flew to France for brain surgery 13 years ago. The surgery, deep brain stimulation, was not yet performed here. It was pioneered by a French doctor named Dr. Benabid.
She spent 31 days in the hospital and had 3 surgeries, the largest being a brain surgery that lasted 15 hours. Obviously, this was not covered by insurance.
Her total bill was $19,000.
Can you honestly imagine a month long stay in the hospital in the U.S. with 3 surgeries, numerous tests, for a mere $19,000 even 13 years ago?
I should add that the care there was exemplary. Not only were they top notch medical professionals who had pioneered this procedure, but the hospital was actually NOT run as a prison.
One day, with a steel halo screwed into her skull, the doctors told my mother that they had no procedures planned for her. They suggested that she buy a hat and go into town and have a nice lunch.
Imagine that.
#47 – Johan,
From a philosophical perspective, there is an inherent problem with taxes. …
Will you also opt out of using all of the other services of your government? Roads? Rail? Police? Fire Fighters? Water? Sewage treatment?
#43 Blow it out your ass… for each isolated case like the one presented here how many times did the US health care (not really a system) let someone down..today?… Get a grip and look at all the facts with reality… and why are we comparing everything to canada?… whatabout germany, France, Austrailia, England.. Etc… seems like the discussion is too focussed on canada.
Rail…. What rail only a few selected states have this service. Another area we are behind in…welcome to America!!!
Roads..partially federal funded…+ Local taxes
Police,fire,water sewage etc…all Local Taxes..
People are fed up, the guys inside the beltway are living it up..with you tax money and forgetting about you the people… The Congressmen/women that will be deciding the future of americas health care system, are once again, not effected by the laws they pass.. they are fully covered at no cost to them for every whim and muscle spasm… good for some… so its easy for some republican 3 piece 1000$ suite to stand up and speak out against the curent system. he/she does not have to put up with the same level of dice throwing chance with his insurance company the normal folk do…
Because we are nasty, vicious, hateful, racist, stupid people that liberals like yourself should kill.
The US has more NICU beds because they Need them.
Neonatal mortality rates for the US 4.7 deaths per 1000 births, compared to 3.0 in Australia, 3.7 in Canada, and 3.8 in England
Reason most often sited is low levels of prenatal care in the US.
Hmmm, prenatal is cheap compared to a stay in an NICU, I wonder if its those uninsured not getting that prenatal care and then having the State pay for there BABY’$ NICU time.
#12, You didn’t tell the whole story. They also spend less than 1/4 of what the US does per capita. Which I suppose leaves plenty of room for HC costs.
For every dollar a US citizen spends, Canadians spend 24 cents. Where is the other 75+ cents going?
Below is a little cut & paste from another part of this site. I believe Myth #4 says the government doesn’t do things like this. hmmm
As for trying to favorably compare Canada military expenditures with US as justification for Canada’s high taxes….How many air-craft carriers I can get for 16 billion? Just wondering.
+++++++++++++
# 186 Rick’s Cafe said, on June 26th, 2009 at 3:34 pm Similar, but slightly different topic from our wonderful medical system up north. As I’ve said in the past, giving away existing checks and balances to a bureaucracy is a scary thought.
*********
Manitoba chiefs angered by delay in sanitizers
Updated Tue. Jun. 23 2009 11:53 PM ET
CTV.ca News Staff
First Nations leaders in Manitoba have slammed federal health officials, after a report said Health Canada delayed shipping hand sanitizers to reserves because the products contained alcohol.
***********
It’s a lengthy article, but ya all get the gist of where it’s heading.
I suspect the reason we don’t hear more of these stories is NOT because the stories don’t exist, but rather that it would be just as uncommon to subscribe to a Canadian newspaper for the sole purpose of gathering local information as it would for a local editor USA to include it in his paper.
#59, I wonder if its those uninsured not getting that prenatal care and then having the State pay for there BABY’$ NICU time.
Prenatal care is easy. You have to educate the mother to take care of the fetus. Premature/low birth weight babies are a large percentage of the neonatal deaths in the this country.
Why is that we have a generation of mothers who don’t know how to take care of themselves with all the money the government gives them?
What a crock! All you have to do is read this sentence, “As America comes to grips with the reality that changes are desperately needed within its health care infrastructure, it might prove useful to first debunk some myths about the Canadian system.”, and you know the contents of the article. Think there might be some bias? Hah!
As for Aunt Betty, my wife had the same surgery. It was scheduled in less than a week and the out-of-pocket expense was $0.00.
I wish the US would look to Australia’s medicare system rather than Canada. This is because I think that AU system better fits our needs.
The problem with looking at Canada is that Canada doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Most Canadians live close to the US border. Canadians with money have an easy option of buying US medical care. So it takes the pressure off the Canadian public system.
Now compare that to Australia. AU is pretty well isolated. Your average Aussie can’t drive a couple of hours to another country to buy first world medical care. They pretty much have to do it all themselves.
In Oz, everyone is covered. But you can buy extra medical insurance to get better care, for example, private hospital rooms. They also have private hospitals that those with means can elect to use. The UK also has private doctors that you can pay, and they do a damn good job compare what you get in the US.
The Aussie medicare system is not perfect. There are horror stories there too. But I think what they have there fits the US much better than either Canada’s or the UK’s system.
This is wonderful propaganda from the Denver Post. Since, apparently, there IS such a thing as a free lunch, does this new health care system come with a free lunch?
We’ll get the change we deserve no?
#64, Ron,
Another ignorant one getting his talking points from the “NO” party press releases..
Fact, the average Canadian has equal or better than health care than the average American.
Fact, the vast majority of Canadians want improvements BUT they do not want privatation of the system.
Fact, Canada, as every other Western, industrialized nation, does more while spending less that does America.
Fact, Canada has higher life expectancy rates, lower infant mortality, and equal or better outcomes for most major illnesses.
Fact, average Canadian minor chronic care patients; diabeties, etc, are healthier than the average American patients.
Fact, very few doctors work for the government. Those that do have similar counterparts in the US.
Fact, the government does NOT dictate who gets what service.
Fact, if you ever get sent to a Canadian hospital ER, the last thing you are asked for is an insurance card. You will receive the same high quality of care if you have one or not. Not so in the US.
Fact, The American system has more FUD per comment that McNeil Labs has Tylanol.
I am familiar with both systems.