An appeals court has ruled that a Ten Commandments monument at the county courthouse in Stigler, Oklahoma, violates the Constitution because its primary effect is to endorse a religion.
The 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled 3-0 in a challenge to the monument brought by the American Civil Liberties Union of Oklahoma and by a county resident.
“We hold that the [Haskell County commissioners’] actions in authorizing and maintaining the monument . . . had the impermissible principal or primary effect of endorsing religion in violation of the Establishment Clause” of the Constitution, the judges wrote in a 52-page decision…
On May 18, Gov. Brad Henry signed a measure to place a privately funded monument of the Ten Commandments at the Capitol…
The measure passed despite concerns that it could draw a costly legal challenge and could be interpreted as the state’s endorsement of a religion.
This crap never seems to end, does it?
They should have put it in the law library.
@ Troublemaker, Laserdisc and other wannabee atheists
“Please keep all religious displays out of our government buildings.”
Now, if there is no god then how can these be religious documents?
They are simply historic human documents. Like a statue of a Greek god.
If the state capital has a statue of Zeus or Athena sitting around … do we consider it religious? No.
If you are an actual atheist, how can any documents be religious documents? We all know they were made by man.
I love how some of you guys claim to not believe in a god and also fear some old document from 4000 or so years ago.
Consistency, people!
Also, what line in the Constitution says that there can be no displays (statues, etc.) of a religious nature on public property?
#54, Meyers,
Stalin never suffered any consequences for his evil, neither did Mao.
While that is totally irrelevant, neither did Nero, Ivan the Terrible, Catherine the Great, King George III, Louise XIII, Cecil Rhodes, . . .
I’m saying the 10 Commandments was one of the most successful — at least in the long run — early attempts to codify morality.
I understand your point but do disagree. This was an attempt to control a certain group of Hebrews into following their leaders without question. This is less about morality than subjugation.
Remember, “Thou shalt have no other Gods before me” implies that at that time there were other Gods. By declaring the wrath of God would hurt them if they disobeyed could keep most in line.
Now, if there is no god then how can these be religious documents?
They are simply historic human documents. Like a statue of a Greek god.
If the state capital has a statue of Zeus or Athena sitting around … do we consider it religious? No.
If you are an actual atheist, how can any documents be religious documents? We all know they were made by man.
I love how some of you guys claim to not believe in a god and also fear some old document from 4000 or so years ago.
Yes because it is the documents that they have a problem with and not the people who believe in them and want to make everyone believe in them…
# 60 Troublemaker said, on June 9th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
“Belief in religion is a MENTAL ILLNESS.
All signs off it should be scrubbed entirely off the planet for the health and safety of all humanity.”
So almost every hospital will need to be shut down. St Jude’s Children’s Hospital, Methodist Hospital, Lutheran Hospital, St. Mary’s Hospital, and all hospitals with religious names being “scrubbed entirely off the planet” would not do much for the “health and safety of all humanity.”
I don’t see any Atheist Hospitals. I guess there would be no hospitals anymore.
The Salvation Army Thrift Stores would have to be shut down, so there would be no place for low income people to buy used clothing.
Many homeless shelters and canned food kitchens places are run or were started by churches. Those would go away. Most charitable giving in this country comes from the various churches.
Many of the schools and hospitals built in (the countries in ) Africa and other third world countries were built by missionaries. Many of those people learned to read because a missionary taught them how.
Religion has done a lot more good than bad.
Benjamin, just change the names of the *publicly funded* hospitals would be a good start. Publicly funded hospitals should have nothing to do with theism. The General Hospital is an obvious example that you couldn’t come up with.
Hospitals like St Jude’s Children’s Hospital are funded by public donations, INCLUDING atheists.
If these religious organizations are so righteous, they’d do it anyway. Because it helps people.
Why does it have to be done in the name of god, or not at all? Why not be good for goodness sake?
Also, as for secular charities?
Toys for Tots
American Cancer Society
American Red Cross
God does not have a monopoly on compassion.
Who cares, leave it up.
“tax the churches, tax the businesses owned by the churches” .. Zappa
@64 Fusion
“This is less about morality than subjugation.”
First, although you may be right about that you don’t know.
There have been benign philosopher kings that cared about their people and maybe some of them even believed a god entrusted them to care for them.
Look at King Arthur … “The Land and the King are one.” Although fiction, that attitude had to be somewhat common that some rulers legitimately cared for their people.
Either way, 4000 years ago man was only about 2 or 3 steps out of the caveman era and they certainly needed the threat of a skygod for many of them to grasp any ideas of morality.
—-
But Fusion, putting that aside …
Atheism means you don’t believe in religion.
Isn’t it odd that many atheists spend all their time fighting and arguing over a god that doesn’t exist?
A peculiar use of time, I’d say.
Over the course of the future, religion will play a less and less prominent role in the world the same way so very few people remain that actually believe in horoscopes, vampires, bigfoot, voodoo, potions or superstition.
All the Kings Horses and All the King’s Men can’t put that egg back together again.
I think many of the people that are religious are more sentimental about their religious roots and the role that as children religion revealed interesting tales of morality and learning.
And I think the people that grow out of religion do it on their own.
As a result, I don’t see any religion as a threat and it is more a game of showmanship by some.
But that is of course only my view.
When is someone going to put the Bill of Rights in front of a courthouse?
#71 HMeyers wrote “Isn’t it odd that many atheists spend all their time fighting and arguing over a god that doesn’t exist?”
It’s a worthwhile pursuit, although I think you probably overestimate the number of people who spend all their time in it.
An extreme danger posed by worship of the god of Abraham is that the “holy scriptures” (Bible or Koran) depict this god commanding his servants to kill others in his name. Therefore, anyone who worships this god believes that there is a Creator, and he has the authority to order deaths on earth, not just waiting to punish people in the afterlife. Dutiful obedience to the Creator may require believers to kill others, just as depicted in the scriptures.
This give extraordinary power to anyone who can convince others that he is God’s oracle (or prophet). Is it true that every such religious killing has been the result of actual communications with the Creator of the universe, or have followers occasionally been fooled into performing acts of violence dreamed up in the minds of evil men who merely posed as God’s oracles?
Do you really think this isn’t dangerous?
This subject alway brings out allot of ferver… But the point is not religion as most here are harping on. The point is the Constitution and it guarantees a seperation between church and state… thats it!! and to be seleective about what you want to take from the constitution is a dangerous game.. If you want to pray fine,,but keep it out of the court room or any implication it may be in the court room.. Simple.. and I think most of you here should actually go and READ the Constituion instead of touting the Bible.. these are 2 disctinct subjects and should remain seperate. Have a Nice day….:-)
# 73 Gary, the dangerous infidel said, “Do you really think this isn’t dangerous?”
It’s a little less dangerous than extreme political ideologies.
@ Gary
“Do you really think this isn’t dangerous?”
Most of the people who join cults are troubled people or think they have no other alternatives in their life.
This is what makes them vulnerable.
Raise the standard of living in the world!
You never see a cult in an affluent and educated neighborhood.
It’s always the people that life has taken a crap on. They desperately need to BELIEVE there is meaning to their life.
In recent history, this tends to be countries in the Middle East and places like Palestine because the standard of living is terrible.
Case in point, the super depression of the 1930s and Adoph Hitler in an economically collapsed Germany.
Or the Cult of Mao (<— hey, no deity required there!) that rose in the 1960s in the wake of 20 million people starving in China.
The struggle for survival and shattered dreams is what brings dangerous cult movements that are a threat to people.
It can take many forms other than just religion, with scapegoats like “The Jews”, “The Infidels”, the “Non-Believers”, “The White Man is keeping us down”, etc.
Most people are good, it is during tough times that extremism finds its many forms — and I bet it can happen without religion.
As in ultra-nationalism.
Or whatever the hell the IRA was about in Ireland.
This isn’t crap John. This is 86% of the population imposing their will on our laws and lives. Soon you will see more and more heated discussions about issues like these as the Republicans whip their constituents into a voting furor in preparation for the next big election.
# 76 Hmeyers said, “You never see a cult in an affluent and educated neighborhood.”
Uhh, Scientology?
Roman Catholics?
Etc.
OK – a little step back…
How many of us would feel safe in a world where the majority of people elevated ‘divine law’ ABOVE the secular law of the land? And felt no duty to obey the secular laws, because they ‘answered to a higher law’?
It really does NOT matter if it is Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus or ANY other religious fanatics! They are scary, because they believe themselves to be ABOVE OUR LAWS!
THAT is why displaying religious laws on the lawn of a secular courthouse is unacceptable – regardless of anything else (history, accurate or otherwise)!
Few small points:
1. The Koran is NOT – not even partially – based on ‘The 10 Commandments’
2. Buddah (however spelled) is NOT a god. Buddhism is an a-theistic religion: it does not address the existence of God(s) in any way, as it considers such matters to be irrelevant.
3. The Christian Bible contains TWO – MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE – sets of ’10 commandments’! Read your Bibles! Exodus 20:2-17 AND Exodus 34:1-28 each contains THE 10 Commandments… I have read them – they are NOT the same! IF it is important that these ’10 Commandments’ be placed in houses of secular justice – for historical reasons – then placing only half of them is just as wrong as not placing any!
http://www.heterodoxy.com/societyofchristians/ten_commandments.pdf
4. ‘Atheists’ – by definition of the word: nay, by the VERY FORMULATING of the word as it was invented by its author – means ‘ABSENCE OF BELIEF IN GOD’. It therefore does NOT imply ANY ‘belief’ by any atheist: implying atheists hold specific beliefs is inaccurate and erroneous. By definition.
Oh, oh, oh: I forgot:
Mormons?
@Nimby
I knew someone would mention Scientology.
Still … they aren’t killing (a lot) of people as far as I know.
So it is unconstitutional for Barack Obama to be talking about Jesus so much? He’s done it more than George Bush.
#82, by mentioning Jesus so much, I think Obama is still just trying to reassure people that he’s not the secret Muslim terrorist that far-right wackos implied he was. Has it worked yet?
Thing is, if they _really_ wanted to have (and keep) a display of the 10 Commandments by their courthouse, they know how to do it: include it as one of several lawgiving scenarios from history. But that’s not the main idea here.
Their main purpose was to start a fight.
There was a hilarious bit on last evening’s rerun of the old Drew Carey improv show “Whose Line Is It Anyway?” In a game called “Scenes from a Hat” in which random scenarios are pulled from a hat and acted out by the cast, Carey pulled out one that said, “Something to say that will _always_ start a fight.” So Ryan Stiles walked out to center stage and said, “… Y’ wanna fight?”
That’s exactly what the Haskell County, Oklahoma commissioners have done here. They don’t really care about the marker at all, except as a vehicle to stir up trouble and rile up “the base,” and I’m always amazed that none of the news reports talk about that angle.
This Blog is bullshit…where’s the real news?
I believe in a living Constitution DUR DUR DUR.
#71, Meyers,
The first part I think we agree but are just using different views and words.
Atheism means you don’t believe in religion.
I stopped to respond right there.
First, and very important, atheist is the word used to describe me by someone else. I don’t accept that word anymore than I consider myself an infidel or gentile.
Call me what you want, those are your definitions, terms, and conditions. Just don’t expect me to agree with those terms.
I now return to finish your post
#71, Meyers,
Part II
As I said in #87, we basically agree.
Where I lean towards the subjugation side and opposite the morality side is most of the stories teach no morals.
Sodom and Gommorah? No morals, just do what God tells you to.
Jacob’s ladder? Don’t do drugs before bedtime?
Jonah and the big fish / whale? I tell you, ya jes gotta have faith. (And maybe after Faith, you should try Becky)
Noah and the great flood? So if you don’t believe in God, he is going to kill you.
The Good Samaritan is the only one I can think of where there is some morality.
I should add I enjoyed your post. Well framed arguments and fun to read.
Thanks Fusion
#2 “It represents divine authority for the rule of law and of self governance.”
IMHO, we should replace all public displays of the 10 commandments, with the 10 most important laws of physics.