And so it went Friday morning when WLS radio host Erich “Mancow” Muller decided to subject himself to the controversial practice of waterboarding live on his show . “I want to find out if it’s torture,” Mancow told his listeners Friday morning, adding that he hoped his on-air test would help prove that waterboarding did not, in fact, constitute torture. Listeners had the chance to decide whether Mancow himself or his co-host, Chicago radio personality Pat Cassidy, would undergo the interrogation method during the broadcast. The voters ultimately decided Mancow would be the one donning the soaked towel and shackles, and at about 8:40 a.m., he entered a small storage room next to his studio that was compared to a “dungeon” by Cassidy.
“The average person can take this for 14 seconds,” Marine Sergeant Clay South answered, adding, “He’s going to wiggle, he’s going to scream, he’s going to wish he never did this.” With a Chicago Fire Department paramedic on hand, Mancow was placed on a 7-foot long table, his legs were elevated, and his feet were tied up.
Turns out the stunt wasn’t so funny. Witnesses said Muller thrashed on the table, and even instantly threw the toy cow he was holding as his emergency tool to signify when he wanted the experiment to stop. He only lasted 6 or 7 seconds…..
“It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that’s no joke,”Mancow said, likening it to a time when he nearly drowned as a child. “It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back…It was instantaneous…and I don’t want to say this: absolutely torture.”“I wanted to prove it wasn’t torture,” Mancow said. “They cut off our heads, we put water on their face…I got voted to do this but I really thought ‘I’m going to laugh this off.’ ” Last year, Vanity Fair writer Christopher Hitchens endured the same experiment — and came to a similar conclusion. The conservative writer said he found the treatment terrifying, and was haunted by it for months afterward.
Hey, at least he had the guts to try. Sean, Rush, Dick… we’re waiting.
Setting aside the torture question for a minute (which is a no brainer by the way), and setting aside what kind of country you want to live in (if it’s not torture then you should be free to use it on your citizens) think about the results you get.
You want good information to stop heinous crimes like bombings and hijackings. These “rough” interrogation techniques don’t produce great results. I think everyone agrees that you want the best possible outcomes from your intelligence and policing (it takes both). Don’t waste your time on this crap.
Like most things in life, it takes hard work to be successful.
The idea that we can play nice with those who want to kill us is a bit childish.
Let’s look at WWII Japanese methods to see what torture REALLY is.
>> RSweeney said,
>> The idea that we can play nice with those who want to kill us is a bit childish.
The idea that we have to torture our enemies is more than a bit barbaric and un-American.
>> Alfred1 said, on May 22nd, 2009 at 5:56 pm
> Its irrelevant it feels like torture…its not torture, its a harsh interrogation method that works because it feels like torture…
“harsh interrogation” is a liar’s term for torture.
What was done can’t be undone. It was not a shining moment in American History but we’ve had more than a few of those before. When people are scared they do bad things to people and many people in positions of power were scared.
It may be best to move on. At least we didn’t murder any prisoners that I know off.
The real issue before us now is what do we do with the worst cases in Gitmo. The best I can come up with is to leave them there.
If you want them in your state get your governor to ask Obama to send the prisoners there.
# 12 Greg Allen said,
“Here’s a question to ponder:”
“Why does it take TORTURE for a conservative pundit to divert from the party line?”
Because those folks value loyalty above almost everything else. Cross them and you lose your well-paid job with the conservative think tank when you retire, or your kids lose their admission to the “good” school, or you even lose the job you have now. They don’t take such things lightly.
– – – – –
# 15 EvilPoliticians said, in part:
“What would you do if you knew the captive 100% knew the disarming code for a nuclear bomb about to be set off in NYC?”
Man, I really HATE when that happens! Three, four times a day, time bombs in big cities, with big red LED displays counting down the minutes and seconds (BEEP … BEEP … BEEP …), ominous music playing on the sound track. Do I cut the red wire or blue wire?
Get real! How many times has that actually happened? Seriously. Outside of another cliché-filled script, how many times?
What if, what if, what if! What if the only way you could get the disarming code (what terrorist who wants to blow something up is going to build in a disarming code?) was to stab your wonderful little three-year-old grandson in the gut with a rusty brick-layer’s trowel covered in dried mortar and retrieve the capsule with the information encoded on microfilm from his small intestine? What would you do THEN, huh?
Sorry. I just get irked by these ridiculous “hypotheticals.” What if Spartacus had had a Piper Cub? What if horses ruled the Earth? (Instead of just their hind ends, like now.)
The worst part of condoning torture is it makes us worse than our enemy, and deserving of defeat and destruction. I paraphrase a quote (originally about slavery) from Abraham Lincoln, from his statement to an Indiana Regiment passing through Washington circa 17 March 1865: ‘When I hear anyone arguing for torture, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally.’
More smokescreen tactics by these minor media players. Yes waterboarding is torture. I very much doubt that’s still an issue. Only these conservative idiots would think it is. But what they’re really obfuscating is whether torture is actually effective, moral, and legal under the Geneva Convention? An issue that’s been swept under the table by them all. Is Cheney really guilty of being a war criminal? By violating the provision of the Geneva Convention? Yeah, he might keep on saying that he thought it was necessary, and that it worked. But that’s not the damn point. He signed off on this sh*t. And he ought to have his left pinkie chopped off, or something. Whatever punishment works to deter future presidential shadow men, from pulling this crap.
My girlfriend used to do this to me.. I sure do miss her.. *sniff*
Alfred
Its irrelevant it feels like torture…its not torture, its a harsh interrogation method that works because it feels like torture…
But isn’t.
You talking about Electro-Shock Torture on the genitalia right.
No permanent harm no foul… that your logic?
Reading your posts is Torture. I can only hope some of what you read here sinks in.
As far as I can tell if you are a Christian you are going to your idea of hell unless you get to repenting very soon. The end is near get busy
War if for the violent. If you disklike violence, stay the hell away from it. Sure torture is un avoidable at an individual level, but it shouldn’t be institutionally tolerated. Because if it’s tolerated we’ll have to decide what other methods are tolerable, and if 12 years old is old enough to be the victim, or if a pregnant woman can take it or not. Just prohibit it and keep a couple of sadists close by for emergencies.
EvilPoliticians said
Unfortunately, there is a dilemma. What would you do if you knew the captive 100% knew the disarming code for a nuclear bomb about to be set off in NYC?
Torture the Mossad agent that planted it.
THE PROBLEM HERE IS FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE..
These are independent cells..
there is NO time lines, EXCEPT IN THE CELL.
there is VERY LITTLE communication to OTHER, or OTHER CELLS..
FEW in the group KNOW what MAY/MIGHT happen until near the end.
The MAIN leaders, give ideas, and let the groups DO as needed and what is Quick and easy..
there are FEW time lines, and FEW REAL plans, there are only objectives, and sometimes NO PLAN of attack(how to do it).
so telling anyone WHAT is to happen, and NOT WHEN, REALLY dont help.
If they are SMART. they will lay low until things arent so crazy. THEN HIT AGAIN..
UNTIL that time, WE BECOME PARANOID.
#39, Uncle P.,
RE #15,
Very well written comment. I thank you sir for posting that.
For all those who parse their words trying to find justification for torturing (ie. “enhanced interrogation”, geeze you are a sick bunch.
Alphie, you have an excuse. You are just an idiot, completely unable to think for yourself. You follow your hero, Boss Limpdick as if he were a god.
Lyin’ Mike, Why don’t you volunteer to be waterboarded. Then we’ll let you decide. Just for yourself. It might be a little uncomfortable, but you can be the Judge.
thegreygeek, How do you KNOW it was only done to three people? The CIA destroyed all the evidence except for witnesses coming forward now. Previously released Guantanamo prisoners have all said they were tortured.
RSweeny, yes, and the Japanese were prosecuted, as were the Nazis for torturing and other crimes against humanity.
RBG, how would you like to be tortured after YOU surrendered. Maybe, you would really like to feel a bullet coursing through YOUR gut in order to extract information. In my opinion though, you should really get a life and seriously start thinking about the ramifications of what you write. Sort of a “put brain in gear before putting fingers in motion”.
EvilPoliticians, if someone is not a POW, that means they are covered under criminal law. Both, criminal law, along with military law (including the Geneva Conventions) forbid torture. Under the Geneva Convention, torturing civilians is prosecuted as a Crime Against Humanity.
‘dro, still playing the asshole. It’s OK, I understand the history of your country as well as so many nations in your region. Your favorite caudillos . Torture is nothing new to so many of the regimes you would support.
You know we a doomed to loose in any war with Islam and we are at war with Islam. The Progressive Anti-Religious government now in place and without the general culture has placed at war with Islam. It’s the sex crazed all invasive culture promoted by the Left/Socialsit/Communist Demoncrats that has brought into conflict with the Muslims and it’s the same people that have doomed us to be conquered by the Muslims and become Dhimmi.
Christianity will survive and will triumph in the end, but the only that will survive of the Demoncrats is the smell as they morph into a Aristocratic Totalitarian governing class that they work so hard to imitate today.
Welcome to the dawn of the new Dark Age…….
Whatever…..
Traaxx
Torture is political ventriloquism.
Cool with that?
I was in Beirut in Oct 1983. I helped dig up dead Marines from a barracks bombing. It’s the closest I want to get to war.
That being said, I still don’t believe in torture to get information that may or may not exist.
Waterboarding is torture. If it isn’t, why aren’t we using it to get confessions out of suspected murderers in the states?
If we allow the definition of torture to exclude the use of waterboarding, it will soon be used in police stations around this country. After all, it would be harmless, right? It doesn’t fall under cruel and unusual punishment, right?
#9 #10 I’d pay good money to do this to Hannity, even just to see it done to him. They ought to line up all those tough talking pussies at Faux news and waterboard the lot of them.
Finally, an economic recovery idea from Republicans – a new water park theme.
This should now bring bipartisan support for that infrastructure spending bill.
Dear Stupid Blowhard Conservatives,
Instead of having yourself tortured for seven seconds, you might want to keep the following in mind for future reference:
Any time you physically or mentally assault a helpless prisoner and convince them they or their loved ones are about to suffer grievous bodily harm or death if they don’t tell you something, anything to stop you – that’s torture.
Waterboarding yourself is not entirely necessary – or very bright – but please feel free to go ahead and do it if you’re convinced you must.
>If it isn’t, why aren’t we using it to get confessions out of suspected murderers in the states?
Because brutal treatments aren’t allowed. We aren’t allowed to throw suspects against the wall to get a confession either.
>… and Mancow wasn’t even convinced that they would kidnap his wife and kids and do this to them. (unlike the Guantanamo detainees)
So now that is torture? What is the difference between that and telling a criminal suspect that if they don’t confess, give up a ringleader, etc., they (or their relative caught on another crime) will be given the death penalty?
The terms “enemy combatant” and “harsh interrogation” are made up phrases by the Bush administration to justify what they have done.
#5 “Three, thats 3 nutcases were waterboarded shortly after 9/11 and it worked.”
#30 “Its irrelevant it feels like torture…its not torture, its a harsh interrogation method that works because it feels like torture…”
Where the hell are you guys getting this information that torture worked? ITS A LIE!!
Torture will get you a confession all right, but not the truth. None of the torture at Guantanamo came up with decent intel on anything.
This is what torture does: http://dvorak.org/blog/2007/03/15/new-and-sudden-confession-of-khalid-sheikh-mohammed-aka-fat-tony-says-he-is-responsible-for-pretty-much-everything/
#22
> The war against Santa Ana was entered
> into more or less reluctantly, and
> the Civil War was entered into
> (by the Union, at least) involuntarily.
You mean the war was entered into involuntarily by the Confederates. It was the South that was invaded, not the North. The South simply seceded; it was the North that decided that action merited military action.
#53
> Any time you physically or mentally
> assault a helpless prisoner and convince
> them they or their loved ones are about
> to suffer grievous bodily harm or death
> if they don’t tell you something,
> anything to stop you – that’s torture.
The problem with that statement is that it is naive and leaves quite a bit of grey area. I don’t like Brittney Spears’ music. If I was forced to listen to Brittney Spears until I provided some information is that torture? At what point does it merit being called a “mental assault”? What exactly is the line where discomfort become torture?
Let’s look at the second part: telling the victim that their family will be subjected to grievous harm. Lying to a victim is not torture. Jailors are not obligated to be honest and upfront with those that are captured.
The camel jammers attacked America first for no reason then slowly cut the heads off captured Americans. ’nuff said.
There’s only 2 acceptable responses. Question enemy combatants however necessary. Nuke the entire region. NOTHING else is acceptable – so choose.
I always thought waterboarding WAS torture. I would respect the Neo-cons if they would admit this, as they should, and THEN debate whether or not it should be allowed.
Here’s the full video:
#7: “It is also not illegal in to be gagged and whipped if that is what you are into (I’m looking at you repressed conservatives).”
Depends on the state where it takes place. For example, in MA, even consensual BDSM is considered chargeable criminal assault.
Yo guys! and gals!
Only THREE guys were water boarded by the CIA. That is documented and provable.. Of course every whacko that was ever at GTMO is going to say they were tortured. But, heck, you want to see torture go downtown and spit in a cops face at random, you will see some. Oh, btw, There are CIA documents for every interrogation the only stuff that was lost was some video. And, yes, for those 3 that were severely interrogated, it did work and good intel was received that resulted in good things for the US., Is water boarding an acceptable thing, Hell NO! should it be done, Hell NO! But, think about like if it was some dude that had information as to where your six year old son was being buried alive, would you then permit it? You know the answer. All this is now just political BS., It was done, it then Now it is not.. But we also do not want the bad guys to think that whatever they do the worst that will happen to them is a few nights at some Marriott. Come on …Let it go Get some rest!
Tell you what: every time you have an urge to write that torture doesn’t work, read this:
From the Chicago Tribune:
“Consider Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the 39-year-old former Al Qaeda operative who was the Sept. 11 mastermind and bearer of many Al Qaeda secrets. If anyone had a motive for remaining silent, it was the man known to terrorism investigators as “KSM.” But not long after his capture in Pakistan, in March 2003, KSM began to talk. He ultimately had so much to say that more than 100 footnoted references to the CIA’s interrogations of KSM are contained in the final report of the commission that investigated Sept. 11.”
http://tinyurl.com/7wcsz7
Every time you feel like writing that torture results in unreliable info, ask yourself whether it is conceivably possible to check the info out by, say, actually going to the location in question.
Hope that helps out.
47 Mr. Fusion. I would not like to be tortured or even put under extreme stress for even 14 seconds, so I would tell everything including where my buddies are hiding. Maybe you, and the enemies wishing to kill our fellow citizens, are different, I don’t know.
I would not like a bullet coursing through my body to extract info. In fact I would not like a bullet going through my guts for any reason. But our “civilized” society seems to feel this is an ok activity in spite of the extreme duress such events produce. Something like torture I would say. Again, you might feel differently about these things.
That was all you needed to know, huh? Or was there some kind of point you wish you could make?
RBG
#57 Thomas
Typical Americans, willfully misinterpreting and splitting hairs to make themselves feel better. Sounds like the Bush/Cheney mentality isn’t entirely gone yet.
“At what point does it merit being called a “mental assault”? What exactly is the line where discomfort become torture?”
How about at the point of waterboarding? Waterboarding is not designed to kill you, Thomas. Mental assault via physical assault is the entire point of the exercise.
“Let’s look at the second part: telling the victim that their family will be subjected to grievous harm. Lying to a victim is not torture.”
Telling? Lying? Who said anything about telling and lying? As a rule, I think you need to do a little bit more than telling and/or lying to convince religious zealots you’re serious.