 What?!?! |
Cold water on waterboarding | Philadelphia Inquirer — Interesting. FYI
A former FBI interrogator who questioned al-Qaeda prisoners testified yesterday that the Bush administration incorrectly declared success from extreme techniques such as waterboarding, when those methods actually were slow, unreliable, and led an important witness to stop talking.
Ali Soufan, testifying to a Senate panel from behind a screen, said his team’s nonthreatening interrogation approach elicited crucial information from al-Qaeda operative Abu Zubaydah, including intelligence on Jose Padilla, who was convicted of supporting an al-Qaeda cell.
Soufan said his team had to step aside when CIA contractors took over. They began using harsh methods that caused Zubaydah to “shut down,” Soufan said, and his team had to be called back.
#32 – I hope she goes down HARD. Hard enough to scare the rest of spineless sacks on Congress to do what they were elected to do for at least a few minutes.
#40 Alfred1, Cheney became a very wealthy CEO in an industry more often pervaded by corruption than almost any other. Halliburton just recently had to pay another fine for the bribery of Nigerian officials by one of their subsidiaries, and no one was shocked, except possibly that they weren’t able to bribe their way out of the bribery charges.
I’m really at a loss to understand why you would admire Cheney so much, especially when you also consider his open advocacy and behind-the-scenes efforts to expand the scope of executive branch authority. I thought you were against that sort of expansion of government power.
#40, Ayatollah1
Why don’t you post that reference or citation showing where, when, and with whom he sold drugs. C’mon, you lying sack of sh!t. Instead of hiding behind your anonymous mommies petticoat, c’mon and show us the proof. Quit with the bullshit and act like a man.
#45 Mr Fusion
While not taking sides (sort of) the methodology is called inference. Security people use it and so does the NSA. You can infer that someone did something by their other actions.
You can infer that Obomba sold or passed out drugs since most (not all) drug dealers sold drugs to support their usage.
I don’t give a shit what Obomba did back then, it is his fucking us now I’m worried about.
Alfred: Vice President Cheney is an accomplished CEO
Really? What did he accomplish on his own? How many startups does he have? Was he ever a CEO through a typical business cycle? Did he get the job because of his connections and access to power? What CEO experience did he have prior to Halliburton?
How many people has Obama and his administration shot?
You’re such a turd.
See some of what you’re missing
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/05/here-are-few-of-torture-photos-obama.html
Looks like torture to me. And presumably this is the nice stuff.
It was never about getting information. It was about revenge. You know, the good old Christian Right revenge thing.
#52 Alfred1, your position is absolutely not consistent with Christian faith. You’re quoting the Apostle Paul instructing men to simply provide for their families. There’s no reason to believe he intended this to include torturing strangers for possible information about intended harm. And there’s especially no reason to believe that he was intending to contradict Jesus, who taught his followers in this manner…
“You have heard that it was said, ‘an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.”
Alfred,
If you are morally obligated to help my family from being terrorized, then would you not also be morally obligated to help those in other countries that are being terrorized by your government? Or does your moral obligation only extend to those within the imaginary lines defining your country? Or to those of your faith?
# 3 Lou said, “Cheney still trying to cover his ass with more lies. Why is he not is jail ?”
Don’t know. Maybe ask Obama why he won’t release the docs Cheney keeps talking about…
Paddy- the CIA has declined to release those documents.
“The process for Mandatory Declassification Review is governed by Executive Order 12958, as amended. That Order excludes from review information that is the subject of pending litigation. The two documents that former Vice President Cheney sought contain information that falls into that category.”
“For that reason–and that reason only–CIA did not accept Mr. Cheney’s request for a Mandatory Declassification Review. The Agency simply followed the Executive Order. This request was handled in accordance with normal practice by CIA professionals with long experience in information management and release. It was for them a straightforward issue.”
Torture. Does it work? Almost a 100% success rate to get ANYONE to confess to something that both parties know is a lie. How about revealing “future plans?” That seems to be conditioned on how dedicated the torturee is to his cause and the particular technique used.
So, we need to keep WHAT we are talking about firmly defined and in mind.
Is torture “wrong.” I would say in the area of international affairs and national defense, the question is irrelevant. Or, to phrase it the other way, the fact that it can work is also irrelevant.
The issue for a nation is “do we benefit from using this “weapon” in our arsenal.” Nuclear Bombs “work” but we don’t use them for other reasons. Torture is in the same category. Only a gorilla in a skin suit would use a Nuke, or torture. Of course, we have both and both should always be on the table, but only used in the balance of terror between nations today that passes for diplomacy.
BTW- what are the chances that Cheney knew they couldn’t be released before he asked for them? I think he’s aware of any relevant regs regarding this.
It shouldn’t go without comment that Alfie has stated his IQ (Post 16) as 150+. Every person with a high IQ that I know states it specifically, no rounding off. I guess in Alfies mind, his own IQ is high enough to mention by way of arguing by authority, but not high enough to remember exactly?
Hah, hah. IQ is no defense to insanity. Speaking of which, I have also never known a really intelligent person to quote the bible. Be religious, for some confounding reason yes, many very intelligent people have some belief in god or the mystical, but NONE of them quote the bible.
Alfie. Whats it all about Alfie?
#58–badtimes==the rule is that the President can release any piece of paper he wants to any time he wants to without review or input or permission from anyone else.
#60 – Correct.
#61–Paddy-OH===You are always right when you agree with me, unless I’m kidding. Like now.
But just for fun, did I miss or can you confirm that you have never used your IQ as a reason your position is better than someone elses, nor have you quoted the bible.
Just proof that we can always become better or worse people as the flap of a butterfly’s wing may direct us? May the force continue to be with you, Paddy-0-Zero Plus One.
#64 Alfred1, how do you reconcile Jesus’ instructions to turn the other cheek and “do not resist an evil person” (with no contextual limitations) with the directly contradictory instructions to buy swords for self-defense? And is there any Biblical text that tells us how to treat schizophrenia? 😉
And by the way, Alfred1, I’m always amazed at how tenaciously you and your fellow “Christians” seem to cling to your mortal shell. It’s almost as if you realize this is the only life you’ll ever have…
Oh wait, that’s right — you do it for the children, perhaps not realizing that God may hate your children as much as he hated the thousands of Egyptian children he once killed in his act of terror against the Pharaoh.
*eyes roll* Yes, good Christians go out of their way to torture…oh wait, no. What about those…what are they called? Oh, jihadists! Do an online search, their handiwork on infidels is plain to see and they’re proud of it. Guess you’d rather term that the Islamic form of ‘missionary work’.
#65 Gary – There are NO contradictions in the bible. Just your failure to understand. I’m sure Alfie will be along soon to explain everything soon…
#47, Mr. Diesel,
While not taking sides (sort of) the methodology is called inference. Security people use it and so does the NSA. You can infer that someone did something by their other actions.
But an inference is not a claim. The instances you refer to are for a heightened security or observance, not for accusing someone.
The Ayatollah claimed Obama was a drug dealer. Not as something a kid might have shared with friends, but something in a mean spirited way meant solely to demean. Not for something the President has done, but out of pure spite and hatred. If you didn’t read that specific accusation, I’m sure you’ve seen the Ayatollah write similar things.
Sheesh. Once more for the Gipper:
From the Chicago Tribune:
“Consider Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the 39-year-old former Al Qaeda operative who was the Sept. 11 mastermind and bearer of many Al Qaeda secrets. If anyone had a motive for remaining silent, it was the man known to terrorism investigators as “KSM.” But not long after his capture in Pakistan, in March 2003, KSM began to talk. He ultimately had so much to say that more than 100 footnoted references to the CIA’s interrogations of KSM are contained in the final report of the commission that investigated Sept. 11.”
http://tinyurl.com/7wcsz7
That it apparently did not work on ONE witness suggests waterboarding may not be the torture everyone including Jesse Ventura thinks it is.
RBG
#64, Alphie,
Last week you claimed that the bible is fallible because it is a bad translation. Why should we believe what you quote when even you don’t have full faith in it?
#71 Alfred1, I don’t bark at scripture so much as use it to reveal the personality of the demon you worship as a god. The scriptures you love to quote ad infinitum depict a god who lacks all the attributes one would wish for in a deity: chief among them fairness, goodness, and true love for all. Your deity allowed various Israelites to conduct mass murder sprees with his blessing and support, yet on other occasions he commanded torture as punishment for sins as trivial as breaking the Sabbath.
As a Christian, Jew, or Muslim, you have to believe that all of the justice and fairness you attribute to your deity will take place in the afterlife, because the scriptures show countless examples of favoritism and unequal treatment on earth that lack any aspect of true justice. Any expectation you have for justice in heaven is the expectation that your god will behave very differently from the depiction of his actions in the Bible.
His act of terrorism against Egypt, carried out by his own hand, clearly demonstrates his complete disregard for innocent Gentile life. God was apparently so grateful to the Jews for having invented him that they quickly became his favorite race of people, and it was a long time before he allowed the Christians to reform him enough to start loving Gentiles.
I came here for a political discussion and a Sunday school class broke out.
I guess that can be considered torture too…..
Happy Friday everyone!
# 32 Mr Diesel said,
“She also said that the CIA lied to (mislead) congress on what they were doing……”
“Right, you lying c*nt.”
“Now she brings up WMDs. Throwing every buzz term she can to get the heat off her lying c*nt ass.”
– – –
To quote a line I heard on a recent TV show, “Every writer reveals much more about himself than he realizes.” Can you say “gender issues”?
# 24 Alfred1 said,
“#23 Not a BASELESS claim…given most drug users deal to support their habits…even if its [sic] in small quantities…even if it was only once…its [sic] still dealing…”
“So its probable Obama gave or sold drugs, to others, at least once…”
“Its you who argue against probable reality, not me.”
– – –
So here we see the process of Alfie’s “logic,” starting with a “fact” garnered from TV (“most drug users deal to support their habits”) and from that we see that it’s proven that President Obama is a drug dealer, QED! (I think some stuff was left out in the middle there.)
– – – – –
# 26 Alfred1 said:
“#25 Your premise is disputed…Water Boarding isn’t torture…and it is effective…”
– – – [comment:]
Then why don’t amusement parks have Water Boarding rides? Why won’t Sean Hannity submit himself for it, for charity? Why do _all_ the actual interrogators (as opposed to the torturers) insist it is _not_ effective?
– – – [back to Alfie:]
“If American families die from a terror attack that could have been prevented if we had used ‘harsh interrogation techniques’ on combatants…”
– – – [more comment:]
You can make up any hypothetical situation you want (for example: What if Hitler were cloned and given a million nuclear bombs and he was in your basement eating your grandchildren while making prank phone calls to Barbara Bush while pissing on a poster of Anita Bryant?) but it does not change the fact that torture is 1) against American law, 2) against international law, 3) ethically and morally wrong, 4) as dehumanizing to the user as to the victim, 5) harmful to our national security in that it is a great recruiting tool for the other side. I could go on, but since Alfie will not believe or even consider even one, I wonder why I should even bother. For evidence, I offer up the remainder of his post below.
– – -[wtf?:]
“I propose Obama, Pelosi and Reid, and their families, be put to death as just punishment for letting our guard down…in spite of their knowing how implacable the enemy is.”
– – –
I don’t even know how to respond to that…..
#77 Uncle Patso
Interesting point. Nothing to do with me but it is interesting all the same.
I just happen to loath that fucking c*nt. No gender issues, she is just the worst lying bitch the Democrats have to offer.
#75 Alfred1, it’s one thing for you to suggest that my “dark thoughts” produce some sort of “caricature” that misportrays your god’s holocaust against the Egyptian firstborn children as evil, but it would be much more entertaining for me to see you explain your position, and in your normal scholarly manner, of course. I love to awaken to the sound of chirping birds and prattling lunatics in the morning, so please don’t disappoint me 😉