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The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey.
More than half of people who attend services at least once a week — 54 percent — said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is “often” or “sometimes” justified. Only 42 percent of people who “seldom or never” go to services agreed, according the analysis released by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.
White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified — more than six in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did.
The religious group most likely to say torture is never justified was Protestant denominations — such as Episcopalians, Lutherans and Presbyterians — categorized as “mainline” Protestants, in contrast to evangelicals. Just over three in 10 of them said torture is never justified. A quarter of the religiously unaffiliated said the same, compared with two in 10 white non-Hispanic Catholics and one in eight evangelicals.
Is anyone surprised?
#76 Yes, but that shouldn’t stop CNN from putting out bad data to try and bolster its crashed ratings.
>> Skippy said,
>> By the way, Alfred1, you’re an idiot, acting like the bible is some kind of authority.
I’m Christian and I the bible is authoritative in my life. I read it all the time and learned Greek to read it that way.
And the peace teachings of Jesus lead me to a completely different stance than Alfred1. The same with my church and millions of other devout Christians.
That’s a clue that this story is about politics, not religion.
>> Paddy-O said,
>> #76 Yes, but that shouldn’t stop CNN from putting out bad data to try and bolster its crashed ratings.
I wish it was just CNN that does horrible reporting on statistics.
I don’t know many times I’ve hear someone on Fox News cite some “poll” only to discover that it is a Fox on-line poll!
That isn’t just bad reporting. That’s just shameless propogandizing.
>> Bill said,
?? I support enhanced interrogations and I’ve never been to church a day in my life.
C’mon, man. Don’t be a wimp. Say “torture” if you mean torture.
“Enhanced interrogation” is a weaselly liar’s term.
#78, Greg Allen. I have no problem with you using the bible as the authority in YOUR life. You party on. If it brings you strength and wisdom, more power to you.
It’s when religious people try to tell others that it’s an authority over the entire human race, or that I, or the government, or the schools should follow what it says, even when it contradicts itself on practically every page, that’s when I have a problem with it.
And this story is about religion. It’s about how religious people can twist the words or stories in the bible to suit their own agendas.
#78 .. Your interpretation of the bible puts you on a different point on the bell curve – which is great! You’re probably less prone to beat everyone that same bible who think different.
Still, this story is precisely about a survey (never mind if it’s conclusive) that links religious beliefs to the politics of whether torture is a good policy or not.
What you really are trying to say is that “Hey, I’m Christian too but not in the lunatic fringe range”. That’s terrific and agree that many are in fact like you. In fact, so many that they are starting to abandon the party.
An interesting tidbit, inspect social networks like facebook and myspsace where people volunteer their political and religious inclinations and you see surprising numbers of “Christian” with far left leaning social views.
Again, this story shows that the close one is to the lunatic fringe side of the religious bell curve, the more they justify a hypothetical case to torture another human being enough so to make it a policy of or country.
>> Skippy said, on May 1st, 2009 at 4:06 pm
>>It’s when religious people try to tell others that it’s an authority over the entire human race,
I agree. I also have problems when atheists supremacists claim that religious people are categorically inferior to them.
It’s the belief of collective SUPREMACY is the problem, IMHO.
Christian, Muslim, Atheist — all the same.
When supremacist Christians got power in th Middle ages Europe, they tortured and killed non-Christians and “apostate” Christians (even more!)
When supremacist Atheists got power in communist countries in the 20th century they purged society of religion, with a deep bloodbath, massive relocation and horrid camps.
When supremacist Hindus and Muslims get control of a region — they kill too. But they still have a long ways to go in order to out-kill us western Christians and atheists.
The Muslim Turks made a big try against the Christian Armenians (1 million?) but they still are a distant third to we Christians and you atheists. The Inquisition and Crusades actually had very low body-counts compared to Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, but the world was less populated then.
# 82 Dallas said, “Still, this story is precisely about a survey (never mind if it’s conclusive) that links religious beliefs to the politics of whether torture is a good policy or not.”
Where was there a survey question that asked about belief?
#83 – Greg Allen, I’m not an atheist. An atheist says there is no god. I am non-religious. I say, OK, maybe there’s a god, but prove it first. And all the proof that religious people try to present to me (e.g. the bible, the world exists, etc) is not proof.
And you make the classic mistake of claiming the Stalin, Pol Pot, et al, did what they did in the name of atheism. They did not. They did it in the name of Communism. There is no evidence to suggest that if they were religious, that they would have acted any differently. In fact, they probably would have done exactly what they did, only using religion to justify it all.
#76 – Greg Allen,
Statistics 101, class 1: “correlation does not mean causation”
Of course not. I’ll have to reread the article. However, all I got from it was the claim that correlation implies correlation. All they ever stated was that more people in group A believe X. I didn’t catch anything about causation.
That said, a literal interpretation of any of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic writings really is violent in the extreme. That you can pick your way through and pay attention to the peaceful bits means you A) are intelligent and B) do not get your morals from the bible directly but from functioning morals processing centers in the brain, such as the amygdala and prefrontal cortices.
#78 – Greg Allen,
Two things of note:
1) It varies by sect.
2) It never says all of any particular sect believe one way.
Hell, it doesn’t say there are no atheists who believe torture is acceptable either.
# 85 Skippy said, “And you make the classic mistake of claiming the Stalin, Pol Pot, et al, did what they did in the name of atheism. They did not. They did it in the name of Communism.”
What % of communist world leaders were religious, and what % were atheists?
>> Misanthropic Scott
>> Of course not. I’ll have to reread the article. However, all I got from it was the claim that correlation implies correlation. All they ever stated was that more people in group A believe X. I didn’t catch anything about causation.
The article is misleading from the beginning:
(to paraphrase:)
“Churchgoing Americans more likely to support torture”
Wow!
VS
“Conservatives more likely to support torture”
Duh!
See my point?
There are others you could do:
“Non-vegetarians more likely to support torture.”
“People who own all of Charlie Daniel’s albums more likely to support torture!”
“Women who wear polyester and men in ugly ties more likely to support torture!”
Wow!
All are statistically correct (I assume) but deceptive.
#87 – Paddy-O-Putz,
C’mon, even you know people kill for ideology, not lack thereof. You’re just blowing it out your ass now.
Its pretty much typical of right wing Christians to take the bits from the bible that appear to support their stance, and forgo the rest. Just like hard line Muslims. In fact if you count history as a document, then Stalinists and Maoist do it too.
You can use these documents to support pretty much anything you say. Therein lies the hypocrisy of claiming these texts as an authority.
#87 – Paddy-O, what percentage of communist leaders were left handed?
Oh, 100% you say! Well, it’s clear that they were evil because they were all left-handed.
That’s fallacious reasoning, as is yours.
#88 – Greg,
That is a highly valid point. I’ll concede more research is required before you go as far as to point out the correlation between shoe size and IQ.
Can I still say that while no statistical proof exists for the proper correlation that those who say it in their own words, such as Alfie the Rabid Scripture Spouter are indeed violent precisely because of their delusional beliefs that a largely self-contradictory work is literally true in every word?
How about those who actually go as far as to murder individuals and set off high explosives in populated areas for their beliefs?
I realize Alfie and other fundies are a minority. However, they are indeed a loud and violent minority because they do not possess your ability to process what they read.
# 89 Misanthropic Scott said, “C’mon, even you know people kill for ideology, not lack thereof. ”
Right.
ideology: : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture
I guess certain ideologies kill larger amounts than others. These atheist ideologues (an often blindly partisan advocate or adherent of a particular ideology) killed much more over the last 100 years than people belonging to other ideologies… 😉
You forgot to answer Li’s question, Alfie:
Given that many of the people tortured by the US in Iraq were only guilty by association, and often times not even that, I pose a question for you Alfie.
A member of your church begins a campaign of abortion clinic bombings. He is at large, and cannot be found. In response, by your logic, it would be justified to snatch up the entire congregation and their children in the night, and torture you, your friends, and your children until someone gives up the location of the ticking time bomb terrorist!
When your children are crying out because they have been shut in a small box with insects, will you still be of the opinion that torture is justified?
Just wondering.
So you wouldn’t mind your children, friends, and family being waterboarded because after all, it’s not torture, right? Or them being forced to stand in painful positions for hours at a time, or left shivering overnight in a cold cell after being doused in water. All things Bush has done, and none of them you consider torture, right?
Logically your argument is non sequitur…who is torturing who is NOT relevant to whether the act itself can, in certain instances, be proper.
So if one of the members of your congregation was bombing abortion clinics, you wouldn’t mind your children, your wife, your friends being waterboarded by the police to try to find out who the culprit is? Just some friendly waterboarding to get some information?
Hm, but you’re one of those end days people, so you probably would like it. You’d feel all martyrish and stuff. 🙂
#46: Noooobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Catholics were indeed big on torture in those days.
Gotta add one thing to the above: English Protestants weren’t above the practice of torture, drowning supposed witches, and people of faiths other than their own. Especially in the original 13 colonies…and Ireland.
Perhaps this just means that churchgoers are more knowledgeable on the issues, such as that ‘torture’ has saved American lives.
More likely is that this poll has nothing to do with religious views, and is really just a placeholder for political views. The more ‘liberal’ churches taking a Democratic view, etc.
my head is hurting trying to keep up with all of Alfie’s bullsh*t… better stop for now. 🙂
#93 – Paddy-Ole-Troll,
Like a neutered dog, you just don’t get it. There is no such thing as an atheist ideology. A-theism is a lack of ideology, by its very definition.
Boot to the Head!!
#94 Alfred1
How have you devised this ethical ‘red line’ of torture? By what means have you come to the conclusion that water boarding is not torture? How could you possibly know?
Also, you basically saying that while Christ encourages his followers to love their enemies, ‘rulers’ are exempt from this. Therefore is OK if the government tortures on your behalf.
This seems to me to be an incongruous and cowardly loophole.
#97 – Alfred1,
Good on you for being self-consistent. You will be the first to receive water boarding when the next clinic bomb goes off. It’s nice to know you will bear no grudge against those who
torturetreat you with kid gloves and plenty of water.You are also a complete and utter moran for thinking that torture can get any meaningful information at all. But, why let a little thing like presumption of innocence or quality of information get in the way of a good drinking party.
Cheers.
# 100 Alfred1 said, on May 1st, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Harsh interrogation of terrorists to gain intel on their ongoing operations is a Government duty…required by the constitution it protect us from our enemies.
Wow you’re dumb!! How do you know they’re terrorists? Did you hold a fair trial and convict them?
You have condemned people (mostly god-fearing people if that matters to you) as guilty terrorists by what? The look on their faces? Their religion (which as far as I can tell is the same as yours* )?
How do you get around the presumption of innocence? How do you decide who qualifies? You can’t just say terrorists don’t qualify because you haven’t yet convicted them as terrorists.
Your argument is as faulty as it is humanly possible to be.
* The Judeo-Christian-Islamic religion varies only slightly from sect to sect. You have far more in common with the fundamentalist Muslim terrorists than you do with anyone of any flavor of non-theism. In fact, your beliefs are actually more similar to those of Hindus, the ancient Greeks, ancient Norse, and even Wiccans than you do with any nontheist.
#113 – Alfred1,
a·the·ism n. 1.a. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods
i·de·ol·o·gy pl. i·de·ol·o·gies. 1. The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, a group, a class, or a culture. 2. A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.
dickhead
You just proved my point, not yours. What’s the doctrine of an atheist? How does it form any political, economic, or other system?
You too shall be honored to learn a lesson …
Boot to the Head!!
BTW, just because I know you have a hard time understanding a lack of belief when you believe so strongly, I will explain what atheism is.
Atheism is the belief that evidence must be presented for one’s assertions.
Antitheism, for contrast, is the belief that religion is inherently evil.
#166 Hilarious, mate. You really should join the Taliban. They are your kind of people.
#116 – Alfred1,
#112 Experts in the field, …
Hmm… experts publish papers. It seems you could have at least provided a link. There actually are many. But, you chose to expect us to take this on faith.
Faith is not all she’s cracked up to be.
So many have had her that she’s all reamed out now.
#120 – Alfred1,
Sticking your head farther and farther up your ass will never let you see the light of day. If you’re willing to read anything other than that same work of fiction over and over and over again, try some of these links.
From Faux Spews Ultra-right-wing crap who one would expect to take exactly the opposite side.
http://tinyurl.com/dxdvlc
Some 800 men have been held at Guantanamo since the prison opened in January 2002, and 240 remain. Wilkerson said two dozen are terrorists, including confessed Sept. 11 plotter Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who was transferred to Guantanamo from CIA custody in September 2006.
“We need to put those people in a high-security prison like the one in Colorado, forget them and throw away the key,” Wilkerson said. “We can’t try them because we tortured them and didn’t keep an evidence trail.”
Note that this same story exists on many sites. I picked the right wing extremist one because perhaps you will believe your neocon wacko brethren.