Although Frank Rich is not unbiased with his leftist leanings, it’s hard to argue against the points he presents which are pulled from a lot of assorted reports and findings. Bush & Co.’s publicly stated reasons fall apart. For example:

[W]e do have evidence for an alternative explanation of what motivated Bybee to write his memo that August, thanks to the comprehensive Senate Armed Services Committee report on detainees released last week.

The report found that Maj. Paul Burney, a United States Army psychiatrist assigned to interrogations in Guantánamo Bay that summer of 2002, told Army investigators of another White House imperative: “A large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq and we were not being successful.” As higher-ups got more “frustrated” at the inability to prove this connection, the major said, “there was more and more pressure to resort to measures” that might produce that intelligence.

In other words, the ticking time bomb was not another potential Qaeda attack on America but the Bush administration’s ticking timetable for selling a war in Iraq; it wanted to pressure Congress to pass a war resolution before the 2002 midterm elections. Bybee’s memo was written the week after the then-secret (and subsequently leaked) “Downing Street memo,” in which the head of British intelligence informed Tony Blair that the Bush White House was so determined to go to war in Iraq that “the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.” A month after Bybee’s memo, on Sept. 8, 2002, Cheney would make his infamous appearance on “Meet the Press,” hyping both Saddam’s W.M.D.s and the “number of contacts over the years” between Al Qaeda and Iraq. If only 9/11 could somehow be pinned on Iraq, the case for war would be a slamdunk.

But there were no links between 9/11 and Iraq, and the White House knew it. Torture may have been the last hope for coercing such bogus “intelligence” from detainees who would be tempted to say anything to stop the waterboarding.

Read the whole article. There’s a lot more.

How were interrogations done during WWII? Battle of wits style.




  1. Hugh Ripper says:

    #122 I don’t know. What was Oct 18 2002? Groundhog Day?

  2. smittybc says:

    October 18 (though possibly the 20th) was when the last Australian died from the October 12 terrorist in Bali. I wouldn’t expect you, an Australian, to know because the person had it coming. So which chickens came home to roost on that day? Explain to me how your country had it coming, could you please? I want to know how Australia had it coming.

  3. Hugh Ripper says:

    #122 Assuming you’re referring to the Bali Bombings of October 12 2002 (desperately labelled ‘our Sept 11’), yes more chickens.

    John Howard’s sycophantic decision to align Australia closely with US foreign policy, and the liberation of East Timor (liberation of their fossil fuels, that is) put Australians at greater risk of terrorist reprisals. Again, its no great surprise.

    I in no way condone the act itself, but to live by the sword is to die by it.

  4. BubbaRay says:

    # 106 ArianeB,

    Republicans and war? Why not go back to JFK and LBJ? That one ate our lunch, and a crooked Republican (unlike a crooked Democrat) got us out of it “with honor.” Har!

    Dems, reps, who cares? They’re reps and sens. They lie, they steal, they do anything to get elected. Might be nice to give ’em a one year term, then they’d spend all their time getting re-elected and could do no evil.

    And yet, here on DU, it’s the Ds vs. the Rs. Doesn’t make much sense. Regardless of affiliation, some are good, some are bad, and some are just plain evil.

    So, what else is new?

  5. smittybc says:

    #125
    Really, because according to the Jemaah Islamiyah manual “Pedoman Umum Perjuangan Jemaah Islamiyah” (“General Guidelines of the Struggle of Jemaah Islamiyah”), the group’s objective was the creation of a transnational Islamic state (Daulah Islamiyah) comprising Indonesia, Malaysia, and the southern Philippines.

    There is zero talk about “John Howard’s sycophantic decision to align Australia closely with US foreign policy, and the liberation of East Timor (liberation of their fossil fuels, that is)”

    But I see YOU know the REAL reason don’t you, because the terrorists secretly talk only to YOU, and the rest of the things they commit to their manuals are for their own entertainment. Continue to invent your own reality it’s simple that way, and won’t require you to use your feeble brain.

  6. Hugh Ripper says:

    #127 smittybc

    “There is zero talk about “John Howard’s sycophantic decision to align Australia closely with US foreign policy, and the liberation of East Timor (liberation of their fossil fuels, that is)”

    http://theage.com.au/articles/2002/11/13/1037080786315.html

    An example of the ‘zero talk’, or was this article an invention of my feeble brain.

  7. smittybc says:

    No that’s still your feeble brain working away. Jemaah Islamiyah is dedicated to the establishment of an Islamic State in Southeast Asia. You are implying that if Austrailia did not ” align Australia closely with US foreign policy, and the liberation of East Timor (liberation of their fossil fuels, that is)” Australians would be at less risk. You may hope Jemaah Islamiyah members would be selling Satay on a street corner instead of targeting Australia, but that’s not reality.

    And saying “to live by the sword is to die by it.” IS justifying the act.

  8. Hugh Ripper says:

    #129 You seem to be VERY worried about the spread of Islam. A little TOO worried if you ask me. Me, I’m just as worried about the spread of evangelical Christianity (that is to say, not all that worried at all).

    So the Bali Bombers, despite being linked to Al Qaida and despite Osama himself (presumably) saying that the bombing was retaliation to Australia siding with the US, blew up all those poor souls WHY? How does this further the establishment of an Islamic state? Or are these killers graduates of the Kaos school of terrorism and just like blowing stuff up and cackling maniacally?

    Islamic terrorists are at war with the US (and close allies) over the US continued presence in Saudi Arabia (Muslim holy land), US support for the fascist Saudi regime and continued US interference in the affairs of Islamic countries.

    If you’re gonna fuck with these people expect retaliation. This is what I mean by “to live by the sword is to die by it”.

    I find the Islamic terrorists methods abhorrent, but I find the US actions in the Mid East region equally so.

  9. Mr. Fusion says:

    Hugh Ripper,

    I admire the cool, rational tone of your comments.

    It isn’t so much what Jesus would do or say, it is what those who claim to follow him say and do.

  10. ECA says:

    dont get religious..

    ITS NOT WWJD..
    Its WHAT would MAN do to ANY MAN..
    ANd we are next…

  11. MikeN says:

    >By the way, we anti-torture people are not saying that it has never-ever worked.

    Don’t use the word ‘we’. People on this blog have been insisting that torture never works. Kudos to you for seeing reality.

  12. MikeN says:

    Fusion, still having trouble with reading comprehension?

    I was pointing out the wrongness of liberals’ line that ‘torture never works’.

    The May 30, 2005 memo continues: “Before the CIA used enhanced techniques . . . KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, ‘Soon you will find out.’ ” Once the techniques were applied, “interrogations have led to specific, actionable intelligence, as well as a general increase in the amount of intelligence regarding al Qaeda and its affiliates.”

  13. MikeN says:

    >“KSM” was captured _March, 2003_ in Rawalpindi.
    The aborted L.A. plot on the bank tower was _mid-2002_.

    They arrested one person in 2002, who gave them no information. After KSM was arrested:

    * In March of 2003, the CIA captured another key operative in the West Coast plot — a terrorist named Majid Khan.

    · * When KSM was captured later that same month, he knew that Khan was in CIA custody — and assumed that Khan had given us the details of the West Coast plot.

    · * KSM refused to provide any information about active plots, telling his interrogators: “Soon you will find out.”

    · * After undergoing enhanced-interrogation techniques, KSM revealed that Khan had been told to deliver $50,000 to individuals working for a terrorist named Hambali — the leader of al-Qaeda’s Southeast Asian affiliate Jemmah Islamiyah and KSM’s partner in developing the West Coast plot.

    · * CIA officers then confronted Khan with this information from KSM. Khan confirmed that the money had been delivered to an operative named Zubair. He provided both a physical description and contact number for this operative — which led to the capture of Zubair in June 2003.

    · * Zubair then provided information that led to the capture of Hambali in August 2003, along with another key operative, a JI terrorist named Bashir bin Lep (aka “Lillie”).

    · * Told of Hambali’s capture, KSM then identified Hambali’s younger brother Rusman Gunawan (aka “Gun Gun”) as Hambali’s conduit for communications with al-Qaeda, and the leader of the JI cell that was to carry out the West Coast plot. This information led to the capture of “Gun Gun” in September 2003 in Pakistan.

    · * Hambali’s brother then gave us information that led to a cell of 17 JI operatives — the Guraba Cell — that was going to carry out the West Coast plot.

    Perhaps the plot was abandoned, and these guys would have done nothing but earn their degrees.

  14. Dallas says:

    #136, #137.. Give it up MikeN.

    Debating and defending the ‘effectiveness of torture’ is a sick 19th century discussion.

    It’s not only sick but illegal, immoral, barbaric and the US is obligated to treaties by civilized nations.

    Give it up. That dog don’t hunt.

  15. Paddy-O says:

    # 132 Mr. Fusion said, “2. to cause (someone) mental anguish”

    This has been discussed already. It was determined that O’Mama was causing this in many. ArianeB decided he should be executed for it. Thanks for the tip though.

  16. smartalix says:

    This issue will be a stain on America’s soul that will linger for a long time.

    As much as the disingenuous here posture and spin, the rest of the world is not obligated to toe the propaganda line. They see the facts for themselves, and will draw their own conclusions. (History will as well, but that is a different issue.)

  17. Wretched Gnu says:

    MikeN — Glad to see there’s someone on this board who knows more about intelligence matters than 95% of the intelligence experts who testify that, not only does torture not work, it is *more likely* to produce false intelligence that actually puts our operatives at risk.

    Thank goodness you’re here to set the experts straight!

  18. smittybc says:

    #130
    I’m not worried about Islam per se. I’m worried about a strand of Islam that says “Believe in our Prophet and worship him as we do, or you deserve to die.”, just as I would be worried about a Christian sect that said “Believe in Jesus or you deserve to die.”

    This is a critical misunderstanding of Salafi Jihadism and its strategies by much of the West in general, and virtually all of the Left/Media (pretty much the same thing) in the West. Jihadists kill people in an attempt to bring about the restoration of the Caliphate, and those that don’t believe are either Kafirs (Muslim) or Infidels (Non-Muslim) and either way they deserve to die. That’s what I’m worried about, because none of those people in Bali, or Mumbai, or (insert you place on the globe) were living by the sword, they just weren’t living by Sharia.

    What you don’t understand is that Salafists and other Jihadis are international by essence, by ideology, and by ultimate goal, and are happy to kill Muslims as well as non Muslims. It is not the foreign policies of Western powers that “open their eyes” on the need of initiating bombings internationally, but it is their analysis of the feasibility of such action, in conformity with their ideology. This “tit for tat” assertion and other poorly informed debates taking place in the U.S. and abroad are committing an analytical sin: Projecting onto the Jihadists an alien thinking, most likely because of the pressures of Western politics, and preconditioned ideology. Read more about Salafi Jihadism.

  19. bobbo says:

    #144–smitty==”Read more about Salafi Jihadism.” /// Yes, google has quite a bit but do you have a specific reference you could provide?

    Of interest to me is does “Salafi Jihadism” refer to a specific cult or branch of Islam or is it a more generic discription of any Muslim who decides to kill anyone not entirely devoted to certain Islamic principles?

  20. fred says:

    #146 – sorry, I keep forgetting the only standards we must adhere to are for a religious crusade.

  21. Li says:

    So, I could prove that cold fusion works by refusing to release data about it?

    Me thinks that you misunderstand what the word ‘proof’ means.

  22. noname says:

    Hum, let’s see who should I believe here,
    Eisenhower, a general who knows how to win a real war or the always dim witted Bush accolites Alfred1 and MikeN

    I am convinced, to believe in torture you have to be a sadist. Simply because there was no proof that torture has worked during WWII, Korean, Vietnam, Gulf, or IRAQ WARS.

    Obama, wasn’t president during the earlier wars, so you can’t say he is hiding the truth!!!

    Eisenhower put it well when he said “the war would have lasted much longer had the US military had a reputation for inhumane treatment because the enemy would not have been willing to turn themselves in as they did. This all raises the issue not just of morality as you framed your question but of strategy and the lack of attention to the strategic dimensions of a torture policy or of cruel and in human treatment”

  23. Mr. Fusion says:

    #136, Lyin’ Mike,

    So what the eff are you talking about? At that point there had been 135 posts including a few by me.

    #137, Still lying Mike,

    Is there some reason you can’t link to where you got that information? If it can’t be referenced, then it is just more of your bullshit.

    Yup, just more of your bullshit.

  24. smittybc says:

    #145
    The Salafi Jihadi movement is a particular strain of Islam, that seeks to decouple itself from the rest of the world. One component of the Salafi Jihadist movement, is fundamentally a function of globalization.  Globalization does a lot to hamstring traditional Muslim societies, not the least of which is a vast expansion of women’s stature relative to men in a post globalized arena.
    As the global economy penetrates the traditional societies of the Muslim world, the violent rejection of the integration is expressed by those Salafis, like bin Laden and al-Zarqawi, who detest that process so much they are willing to kill and die to keep it out, dreaming instead of an Islamic super-state that would transport people back to the golden religious age they prefer, a hint of which we saw in Taliban-dominated Afghanistan. 
    So the strategy is to drive the West out of the Middle East and really all Islamic societies, so they can short circuit globalization’s and the West’s creeping embrace. This is no reaction to any foreign policy initiative, rather a reaction to the march of civilization/modernity/globalization itself.
    Books: The Looming Tower; Wright
    The Pentagon’s New Map; Barnett
    Why Muslims Rebel; Hafez
    A more religious view:
    Faith Reason and the War Against Jihadism; Weigel
    Sadly where you won’t find much information in much of Western Media. But then again their job is to keep you in front of their advertisers, and so any information that does that is what you get with those guys. So while Jon Stewart may be entertaining, he will not help anyone understand the world.

  25. Paddy-O says:

    # 150 noname said, “Eisenhower put it well when he said…”

    Correct, and we still hold to these rules. The one rule we have dropped from WW2 & Ike’s day is that we don’t execute unlawful combatants anymore for simply being unlawful. So, on balance we’ve improved over WW2.

  26. noname says:

    # 153 Paddy-O said, “So, on balance we’ve improved over WW2.”

    Bull Shit Paddy!!!!!!!!!!!

    I think most if not all reasonable and balanced people will agree; the torture, sodomy and homicide of prisoners held in Abu Ghraib prison is not “an improvement over WW2”.

    Alfred1, MikeN, and Paddy you all probably get excited and hard when you see the Abu Ghraib pictures.

  27. Paddy-O says:

    # 154 noname said, “Bull Shit Paddy!!!!!!!!!!!”

    Care to actually address the points brought forward or do you just want to rant incoherently?

    Or, do you think we should summarily execute unlawful combatants as we did in WW2?

    Can you answer that question? Yes, or no?

  28. noname says:

    Paddy-O,

    You said “on balance we’ve improved over WW2.”

    My answer is “Bull Shit Paddy!!!!!!!!!!!”

    Can you answer the question? Yes, or no?

    Do you get excited, hard and want to salute old glory when you see Abu Ghraib pictures?

    Yes or no? Please answer the question.

  29. Paddy-O says:

    #156. Okay, so you can’t answer an explicit, simple question. Kudos, I guess.

  30. noname says:

    # 157 Paddy-O, I can say the same,

    “Okay, so you can’t answer an explicit, simple question”::

    Do you get excited, hard and want to salute old glory when you see Abu Ghraib pictures?


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