Although Frank Rich is not unbiased with his leftist leanings, it’s hard to argue against the points he presents which are pulled from a lot of assorted reports and findings. Bush & Co.’s publicly stated reasons fall apart. For example:

[W]e do have evidence for an alternative explanation of what motivated Bybee to write his memo that August, thanks to the comprehensive Senate Armed Services Committee report on detainees released last week.

The report found that Maj. Paul Burney, a United States Army psychiatrist assigned to interrogations in Guantánamo Bay that summer of 2002, told Army investigators of another White House imperative: “A large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq and we were not being successful.” As higher-ups got more “frustrated” at the inability to prove this connection, the major said, “there was more and more pressure to resort to measures” that might produce that intelligence.

In other words, the ticking time bomb was not another potential Qaeda attack on America but the Bush administration’s ticking timetable for selling a war in Iraq; it wanted to pressure Congress to pass a war resolution before the 2002 midterm elections. Bybee’s memo was written the week after the then-secret (and subsequently leaked) “Downing Street memo,” in which the head of British intelligence informed Tony Blair that the Bush White House was so determined to go to war in Iraq that “the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.” A month after Bybee’s memo, on Sept. 8, 2002, Cheney would make his infamous appearance on “Meet the Press,” hyping both Saddam’s W.M.D.s and the “number of contacts over the years” between Al Qaeda and Iraq. If only 9/11 could somehow be pinned on Iraq, the case for war would be a slamdunk.

But there were no links between 9/11 and Iraq, and the White House knew it. Torture may have been the last hope for coercing such bogus “intelligence” from detainees who would be tempted to say anything to stop the waterboarding.

Read the whole article. There’s a lot more.

How were interrogations done during WWII? Battle of wits style.




  1. bobbo says:

    #77–Paddy-O-Alfie==hah, hah. HAH, HAH. If it weren’t so pathetic, it would be hard to stop laughing. Thats the connection you made? Silly.

    #78–Paddy-O-Alfie==well, yes, a slightly better performance than your cell mate. But still, FDR offer NO GUIDANCE on current affairs. All such imaginary equations would be just that, pure projection on your part. Again, you ring the bell on the Silly Meter.

    Shouldn’t you two be congratulating each other on your individual insights so far?

    Dolts.

  2. noname says:

    facts are facts.

    People who supports BUSH Co WAR effort (mindless war strategy) do so because of blind Republican faith and not facts.

    IRAQ war was not justified. Had nothing to do with 9/11.

    IRAQ war is a huge misdirection of America’s limited resources. Harvard MBA trained Bush Co tried to out-source “our” WAR to Haliburton and other Cheney friends. This out-sourcing also caused the escape of bin Laden during the December 2001 siege of Tora Bora by using Afghan forces instead of only American forces.

    The IRAQ war has not made America or the world any safer, in fact it certainly misdirected USA from containing a growing Taliban threat and capturing bin Laden when it could.

    More IRAQ’s have died and made destitute because of BUSH Co WAR machine then would have if other means, other then a bogus war where taken against SADAM.

    USA has fallen further in World respect and stature since Harvard MBA trained Bush Co has come to power then any other time in history.

    So why do Idiots still support proven lies and broken promises; blind and unapologetic pride and faith in a false God, Bush Co.

  3. Unknown101 says:

    Over quarter of a century ago, as a reservist, I was taught a little about interrogation. You know the stuff you have seen on TV – bag on the head and so on.

    We were specifically told that there were legal reasons we did not hit or otherwise hurt prisoners, and there was a military reason too.
    Information taken under duress is not reliable.

    Soldiers may hurt prisoners but the gathering of information cannot be the reason. The reason is more likely to be that they want to cause pain to someone they dislike.

  4. noname says:

    Me thinks Alfred1 doesn’t like anything less then unapologetic pride and faith in his false God, Bush Co.

    Sorry to offend your tender Bush Co sensibilities; fact are facts.

    Bush Co lies.

    Bush Co hides the truth.

    Bush Co has destroyed much of America’s wealth, reputation, good will ……..

    Bush Co cheats.

    Bush Co never understood what America is about::
    Bush said, CNN.com, December 18, 2000
    “I told all four that there are going to be some times where we don’t agree with each other, but that’s OK. If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I’m the dictator,”

  5. Paddy-O says:

    So, back to topic. Per the definition. Did torture occur? I don’t know. I’m still waiting for some documented cases.

  6. fpp2002 says:

    #87, don’t forget he also puts pride and faith in that other false god, “God”, for which he obviously demands no facts or evidence either.

  7. Uncle Dave says:

    Alfred1:

    KNOCK OFF INCLUDING ENTIRE POSTS, COMMENTS, ETC!!

    Comment #85 is ridiculous. Refer to a comment by number and add your comment. Period.

  8. bobbo says:

    #82–Paddy-O-Alfie==since you had two strong shots at it and still missed:

    YOU posted (#68)that waterboarding could not be inhumane because a Doctor was present.

    I then posted a hypothetical showing that was not the case.

    Everything other than direct contradiction showing you are wrong on your part is a long continuing brain fart on your part.

    #88–Paddy-O-Alfie: “So, back to topic. Per the definition. Did torture occur? I don’t know. I’m still waiting for some documented cases.” /// Well, thats right. Its all definitional isn’t it and what else is a lawyer’s skill except defining words and making distinctions between definitions as they apply to “facts.” I think it is “very clear” that the waterboarding that trainee’s get exposed to is not the same waterboarding that took place to our three Al Quida detainees. A question of degree as in trainees get one hour in a hot box whereas prisoners can get 5 days. Is it fair to call both “getting the box” and that both are torture or not torture? No.

    I myself am pro waterboarding when there is an expectation it will work. I am not convinced that waterboarding had any utility at all in the effort to link Al Quaida to 911. Its not the “ticking bomb scenario” where I do see some justification. While a case can be made for torture in the hypothetical, that doesn’t mean any real case has been made yet.

    Hard to discuss these subjects when people can’t stay on point, tell the relevant from the irrelevant, nor understand which end of a position is disproven when it is directly contradicted.

    In the end, swine flu doesn’t care.

  9. noname says:

    # 68 Alfred1 said “doctors were on hand to ensure it wasn’t inhumane”

    I quess you feel Dr. Mengele also known as the “Angel of Death” did not torture also?

    I am sorry, but you are evil to believe the things you do.

  10. Paddy-O says:

    #93 It’s okay. He’s a bit cranky now that the premise of his “article” has been thoroughly shredded.

  11. Hugh Ripper says:

    #93 What would Jesus have said about the use of torture?

  12. Paddy-O says:

    # 96 Alfred1 said, “I propose he be brought before the Geneva convention, forthwith…”

    No, no, according to ArianeB, he should be executed…

  13. Paddy-O says:

    # 101 Alfred1 said, “#98 In a perfect world, Liberals would actually punished as they punish others”

    Like having THEIR money stolen every time they have a stupid idea for another social program?

    😉

  14. ArianeB says:

    #67 Wasnt a US soldier, but US was the executor.

    #69 http://huffingtonpost.com/paul-begala/yes-inational-reviewi-we_b_191153.html

  15. Hugh Ripper says:

    Alfred1

    I asked what ‘would’ Jesus have said, not ‘what does the bible say’. Do you think that Jesus would sanction torture to get information from his enemies?

    I was led to believe that he preached love and love for ones enemies.

  16. ArianeB says:

    #103

    Better than having our money stolen every time the GOP has a stupid idea for a war.

  17. noname says:

    What is torture:

    Torture is listing to Republican false theology:

    Republican’s Un-American and torturous lies and withholding of truth about IRAQ. (yellow cake, Haliburton contracts, how much the War will cost, …..)

    Republican’s Un-American and torturous, mindless support of all things wall street and screwing of all things main street.

    Republican’s Un-American, systematic deconstruction of American’s manufacturing capacity and strength, giving this American pearl to China.

    GE CEO Jeff Immelt recently said:: “I have also learned something about my country. I run a global company, but I am a citizen of the U.S. I believe that a popular, thirty-year notion that the U.S. can evolve from being a technology and manufacturing leader to a service leader is just wrong. In the end, this philosophy transformed the financial services industry from one that supported commerce to a complex trading market that operated outside the economy. Real engineering was traded for financial engineering. In the end, our businesses, our government, and many local leaders lost sight of what makes a nation great: a passion for innovation.”

  18. Paddy-O says:

    # 104 ArianeB said, “#67 Wasnt a US soldier, but US was the executor.

    Okay, what was the guys name & case? Don’t give me hearsay from a washed out candidate…

    Unless of course, you are lying…

    Waiting.

  19. Wretched Gnu says:

    There’s clearly nothing to argue about here. The waterboarders themselves admit that they were told to extract confessions that linked Iraq to Al Queda.

    No wonder they used these techniques. The vast majority of intelligence experts have been saying over and over again that they don’t find out the truth — they just cause the subject to tell you what you want to hear.

    All Bush and Cheney wanted was to hear what they wanted to hear — which is precisely the only good thing these torture techniques are good for, as any expert will tell you.

  20. Uncle Patso says:

    Read the Washington Post article from 2007 linked at the bottom of the post, or use this URL:

    http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/05/AR2007100502492.html

    Now those guys make me proud to be an American!

  21. Paddy-O says:

    #110 Same here. They treated POWs as they were supposed to. The US also executed unlawful combatants in WW2, as is appropriate…

  22. Hugh Ripper says:

    The sad thing is that despite all the Democrat wind over torture, it wont stop. It naive to believe that security agencies don’t torture to extract information. All states do it.

    Clearly the Democrats are playing politics (well, duh!) and nothing will change.

  23. noname says:

    # 110 Uncle Patso, that is the America that most American’s believe in.

    That is the American that I believe in.

    That is the America I want back.

    I don’t’ want the dark and evil America # 108 Paddy-O or # 102 Alfred1 want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I want an America that believes in the individual and doesn’t lie to the individual as a means to an end.

    I want an America that doesn’t trade financial engineering for individual innovation and real engineering.

  24. Hugh Ripper says:

    #114 Alfred1

    Sound to me like you and your Republican mates WANT and NEED an attack. Perhaps you could slap on a ski mask and some explosives and give the party a leg up.

    Why do you hate America? Clearly you hate it enough to want to see Americans die to return your political party to power.

    No answer on what Jesus would have said about torture, Alfred1?

  25. noname says:

    # 115 Hugh Ripper, It seems obvious #114 Alfred1 and his ilk get a strange and perverse pleasure in others pain; hence, his support of torture even though experts have shown it doesn’t deliver truth or reliable intelligence.

    I don’t think #114 Alfred1 has really read and understood the Beatitudes Jesus gave.

    Nor has #114 Alfred1 or Bush read and understood Matthew address to Peter:-“For all they that take the sword shall perish by the sword” (Mt 26:52)-that is, ‘Those who take the sword must run all the risks of human warfare; but Mine is a warfare whose weapons, as they are not carnal, are attended with no such hazards, but carry certain victory.’

  26. bobbo says:

    Well, I’ve changed my mind. Book TV just rebroadcast Jennifer Harbury author of Truth, Torture, and the American Way, whose husband was tortured by Guatemala Military for 2 years. Key phrase: Torture is used when intelligence gathering has already failed.

    Now, I still think there are 1% exceptions to the “absolutes” that are made, but when the right course of action on balance is not to torture, making the argument otherwise really does just become an exercise in disservice to truth and practicability. I will therefore leave that position to Paddy-O-Alfie and their ilk to fantasize over.

  27. noname says:

    # 118 bobbo, I just saw that too. She gave real life examples of what torture produces. For example she talked about Sister Diana Ortiz who would tell her tortures anything she thought would stop the pain. I know I would probably do that, given that tactics that are used.

    It seems to me only frustrated sadist and their Republican supporters torture with the hope of getting the truth.

  28. Hugh Ripper says:

    #166 Alfred1

    “#115 Already you are spinning its our fault your letting down our defenses allowed our enemies to attack us.”

    ??

    I’m an Australian, mate. American politics doesn’t really concern me (well I suppose it does in a global sense), although I find it interesting and amusing.

    The whole 911 thing was chickens coming home to roost as far as I’m concerned, and while I was sickened by the act, I wasn’t surprised that it happened.

    To treat the subject of torture as an exercise in party political shit throwing is disgraceful. Both sides are drinking the party kool-aid on this one.

    Alfred1 – Still no comment on what Jesus would have said about torture?

  29. bobbo says:

    #119–noname==It was a good show/talk. I could “almost” support torture if it was done with a real “hope of getting the truth” and that is why her talk changed my mind about the unrealistic nature of such a position. THIS THREAD is a perfect example of her and mine concern==again==torture is used when interrogation has failed, or as in Bush, the real goal is coerce a lie, not the truth.

    Yes, a non torture policy will keep the powers that be focused on what more likely ((not absolutely)) works. Given we are in a probabilistic universe, not one of religious absolutes, I’m going to bet on the numbers rather than double zero. ((Double Zero–what a set up for Paddy-O-Alfie.))

  30. smittybc says:

    #120 Tell me what was Oct 18 2002? More chickens? Tell me who had it coming on that day would you? Idiot.


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