[W]e do have evidence for an alternative explanation of what motivated Bybee to write his memo that August, thanks to the comprehensive Senate Armed Services Committee report on detainees released last week.
The report found that Maj. Paul Burney, a United States Army psychiatrist assigned to interrogations in Guantánamo Bay that summer of 2002, told Army investigators of another White House imperative: “A large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq and we were not being successful.” As higher-ups got more “frustrated” at the inability to prove this connection, the major said, “there was more and more pressure to resort to measures” that might produce that intelligence.
In other words, the ticking time bomb was not another potential Qaeda attack on America but the Bush administration’s ticking timetable for selling a war in Iraq; it wanted to pressure Congress to pass a war resolution before the 2002 midterm elections. Bybee’s memo was written the week after the then-secret (and subsequently leaked) “Downing Street memo,” in which the head of British intelligence informed Tony Blair that the Bush White House was so determined to go to war in Iraq that “the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.” A month after Bybee’s memo, on Sept. 8, 2002, Cheney would make his infamous appearance on “Meet the Press,” hyping both Saddam’s W.M.D.s and the “number of contacts over the years” between Al Qaeda and Iraq. If only 9/11 could somehow be pinned on Iraq, the case for war would be a slamdunk.
But there were no links between 9/11 and Iraq, and the White House knew it. Torture may have been the last hope for coercing such bogus “intelligence” from detainees who would be tempted to say anything to stop the waterboarding.
Read the whole article. There’s a lot more.
How were interrogations done during WWII? Battle of wits style.
>> MikeN
>> CIA saying that interrogation with enhanced techniques “led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the ‘Second Wave,’ to ‘use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”
The torture apologists crack me up with their desperation.
“KSM” was captured _March, 2003_ in Rawalpindi.
The aborted L.A. plot on the bank tower was _mid-2002_.
These torture enthusiasts are so desperate they will try to convince you that the torture of KSM in 2003 RETROACTIVELY prevented an attack in 2002!
Torture fans are circulating a list of terrorist attacks supposedly prevented by torture. I’ve been going down the list trying to find specifics and, so far, they are all bogus.
By the way, we anti-torture people are not saying that it has never-ever worked. Anything is possible, I suppose.
We’re saying that torture hopelessly muddles intelligence with disinformation and is highly counter-productive.
And it’s evil an un-American.
>> MikeN,
>> Links can be found pretty easily.
Would you kindly warn us when your links go to WorldNet daily?
It’s always such a waste of clicks.
Seriously, dude, provide real sources if you want credibility for your positions.
Greg
For those that support torture in order to extract confessions, I just want to remind you of a dark period in human history: the Inquisition. Thousands of people were tortured into confessing crimes that they never committed, and punished afterwards (many times by horrible death) based on those same confessions.
The fact is that ‘waterboarding’ is not the real issue, since it is the most ‘gentle’ torture that has been used that we are willing to publicly debate. Many people have died at the hands of US torturers, in the process of extracting information. The Abu-Gharaib photos, with it’s mangled, beat up corpses are all the evidence needed. Things like tying people with their arms behind their backs and lifting them up from their wrists with a rope are well documented. So is psychological torture of various kinds, thermal (cold/hot) torture, use of children and women as coercion, etc.
Could it be that the disintegration of the economy, with the utter corruption of the banking system, is just a reflection of the diminishment of moral and ethical standards of the US government regarding things like torture, manipulation of evidence, accountability?
As a son of immigrants, I was well exposed to why America WAS (yes – past tense) held in such high regard by the rest of the world: an underlying sense of moral behavior. Yes, there may have been corruption, but it wasn’t seen as part of the system itself, as in other countries.
We lost that not due to hippies and left wingers and college professors and ‘intelectuals’… we lost that due to the right-wing’s lack of American Patriotism, a lack of higher expectations, a lack of moral compass, a lack of critical thinking, a surrender to ‘big business’ and it’s totalitarian way of thinking.
>> Alfred1 said,
>> Harsh interrogation is not torture…
Spinning torture as “harsh interrogation” doesn’t stop it from being torture.
Greg
PS I’m curious, Alfred, what ARE your moral boundaries when it comes to prisoners?
Threatening them with sodomy and with the rape and arrest of their family members?
Flushing their sacred scriptures down the toilet?
Stripping them nude, dousing them with water and keeping them in a cold cell all night with bright lights on and blaring music night-after-night?
Kicking them hundreds of times until they are permanently crippled?
Locking them in a box the size of car trunk for days on end?
Ramming a glow stick up their butt?
BEATING THEM TO DEATH?
Where is your moral boundary after which you are willing to investigate and prosecute?
Alfred1 said
Harsh interrogation is not torture…and the world was a better place…for us…we haven’t been attacked since striking back…
If you really believed it was the same person you tortured who attacked the WTC… you’re a fool to think like that. Everyone knows that was an inside job, thus no one attacked the US after that.
Wasnt hard to put explosions in two building, destory them and then for these two useless old building, occupy two countries.
Not a bad deal for the war drummers and the US military CIA considering they now have all the Iraq’s oil field under control and can watch China using the Afghanistan bases.
$46–Greg==”Flushing their sacred scriptures down the toilet?
Stripping them nude, dousing them with water and keeping them in a cold cell all night with bright lights on and blaring music night-after-night?” /// I can see having a policy not to do these things for reasons unrelated to an anti-torture position.==Like doing any of these will make the prisoners more resistant?
Let me ask you—should there be different standards of interrogation for:
1. Criminal Law Violater Suspects
2. Uniformed Soldiers who surrender on the field of battle.
3. Soldiers caught in camoflage during wartime who are part of a sabotage group.
4. Illegal Combatants.
5. Pirates seeking ransom or they will blow up oil tankers.
Not asking for detail, just are all the groups the SAME, or should unique circumstances allow unique remedies?
#47–Now, Zorkor==I beg you to leave Alfie alone. No one in his condition needs someone in your condition to taunt him.
# 46 Greg Allen said, “PS I’m curious, Alfred, what ARE your moral boundaries when it comes to prisoners?”
Mine are the same as FDRs. How about you? Do you think FDR was moral enough in his treatment of prisoners?
Paddy-O-Alfie. Holding hands making a dope ring. Can’t answer a direct question. Straw Man. Evasion. Misdirection.
And both proud of it! HAW!!
Can’t answer a direct question? — Dolts.
The Bush Administration created an alleged link between 9/11 and Iraq within days of it happening. Colin Powell lied at the UN when he talked about Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction. The scenario for war was already pre-determined when Bush entered the White House. The entire event was a set up even before it happened. I wouldn’t be surprised if torture was introduced into the CIA lexicon after 9/11, but I think it was always there.
# 52 bobbo said, “Can’t answer a direct question?”
If someone asks me a direct Q, I’ll answer. Are you back on your meds again? Yes, or no?
#55–Paddy-O-Alfie==good rubber stamp joke. It, and the rest of your gibes would be even funnier if I haven’t seen them before 20 times, or if they were at all relevant.
You have a problem with relevancy don’t you Paddy-O-Alfie. Lets see. Knee jerk reaction throws any subject into black or white categories with the analysis, jokes, and labels to follow. Makes sense. Bad computer program failing the Turing Test, or just a blithering idiot. Makes no difference.
So, Paddy-O-Alfie==the direct question was what are your personal limits on harsh interrogation if any? Now, I did skip over your bible thumping so maybe I missed your direct answer to that when you conclude with “so its irrelevant what I personally might do.”
Magical thinking there Paddy-O-Alfie that you can directly answer and directly avoid answering at the same time. I hear when you straddle a fence like that, your balls get splinters.
Is that true Paddy-O-Alflie, is it true????????
To that end, you balls must be pretty scared if saying your values are the same as FDR’s when FDR was not put on the record in the same way that Bush’s record is==unless you equate the War on Terror with WW2 and the reporting/documentation/media coverage of both are also the same. Is that what you think Paddy-0-Alfie??????
Dolts.
# 56 bobbo said, “So, Paddy-O-Alfie==the direct question was what are your personal limits on harsh interrogation if any? ”
I never saw you ask me that Q. Anyway, I answered to Greg Allen an analogous Q above which holds to your question. Read the threads before wasting people’s time.
Frank Rich’s point is simply this: TORTURE NEVER GETS USABLE INTELLIGENCE!!
Ask John McCain, he knows all about torture.
If Torture is not used to get usable intelligence, what is it good for? Its only use is to get someone to say something you want them to say, whether it is true or not.
#57–Paddy-0-Alfie==
Question: What are your limits in utilizing enhanced interrogation techniques.
Answer: The same as FDR’s.
You are affirming for the third time now that you consider that a direct answer to the question?
Hah, hah. But at least now I see our disagreement. You think being evasive, ambiguous and vague is being very clever. By that standard, yes, you are very smart all the time and your confrere Paddy-O-Alfie backs you up. Don’t you want more than just Paddy-O-Alfie to agree with you? No? Its true, you acted this way before Paddy-O-Alfie arrived.
But still, what is a better measure of ourselves than who we find in agreement with us. REALLY Paddy-O-Alfie, its OK with you for only Paddy-O-Alfie to agree with you?
Well, ok, but I still claim: Dolts.
# 59 bobbo said, “You are affirming for the third time now that you consider that a direct answer to the question?”
Correct. Of course, I’m assuming that the recipient of the answer has at least a 6th grade education in US history. Are you so uneducated that you need me to give you an online history lesson? Yes, or no. Please answer.
#58–Arriane==do you really think torture never works? Do you really think McCain is “an expert” on torture?
Confirm that really is your CONSIDERED OPINION and I’ll post back a serious response. But please, your considered opinion. ((That means you actually think about the implications and basis for what you post.))
#60–Paddy-O-Alfie==do I need a history lesson on the use of torture position of FDR and how he would apply his position to our current war on terror?
Why, YES I do. Please don’t make a general post to http://www.google.com. That really would be embarassing and a carbon footprint not worth the burned coal.
‘Harsh interrogation is not torture’
depending on the level of what the meaning of ‘is’ is….
Again…. how many apologists have actually talked with (former) Military or Civilian Intelligence members?
J/P=?
# 62 bobbo said, “Why, YES I do. ”
Cool, I charge $15/hour, minimum 12 hours. How do you want to pay?
Torture definition:
the infliction of intense pain (burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce
So, now that it is defined. Serious Q here. What did we do that was torture?
Waterboarding is torture, a man was EXECUTED during WWII for waterboarding POWs.
# 66 ArianeB said, “Waterboarding is torture, a man was EXECUTED during WWII for waterboarding POWs.”
Really? Wow! What was his name? I’ve read most of the cases of US soldiers executed by the US Gov’t in WW2. None of those were for water boarding.
#66–Arianne==please answer the question and please do not pick up any bad habits from the likes of Paddy-O-Alfie.
Imagine if you can the untethered fantasy of thinking you should be paid to prove how wrong you are?
Well, that took all of 3 minutes:
SEVEN US Soldiers disciplined/convicted of waterboarding the enemy:
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:dH068h49J8UJ:usiraq.procon.org/viewanswers.asp%3FquestionID%3D001025+%22US+soldier%22+guilty+waterboarding&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
# 71 bobbo said, “Well, that took all of 3 minutes:”
To find not a single WW2 soldier was executed for water boarding. Wow! Good job booboo. LOL
#68–Paddy-O-Alfie==there were about 200 dime paperbacks on “The Punisher” who was a vigilante fighting the mafia and other evil doers. Each novel was 197 pages long. Once I looked at the top of page 183 in two different novels purely as a random look. In both novels, the wording was “as the Punisher drove the outskirts of the city….” IE–real trash novels where the only thing that changed was the name of the city. BUT one issue had the mafia torturing to death their enemies by “turning them into turkeys.”
This was a process where a DOCTOR used anesthia to remove the pain from time to time, but very slowly the DOCTOR removed body parts of the victim in full view of a mirror so the victim could watch himself slowly disappear until finally only the eyeballs in his head and above the rib cage could be determined.
No torture there, a doctor was present the whole time.
But that is the easiest of small defintional points. Not knowing shit from shinola is your main downfall.
#74 booboo. So, what you are saying is that per the definition of torture, no one under Bush did it but it happened in fiction novels. Cool.
Unless, you want to give a documented case that meets the definition…
#73==Paddy-O-Alfie==sorry, but I would have to charge you to prove I’m wrong. Let’s see, is further google worth the effort???
Nah. Couldn’t possibly be worth the effort. Even if there was solid evidence on what his position was during WW2, could only be speculation on how such an opinion would be applied to todays circumstances.
# 76 bobbo said, “Even if there was solid evidence on what his position was during WW2, could only be speculation on how such an opinion would be applied to todays circumstances.”
So true bobbo. But, I think he did a damn good job handling WW2. So, I’ll take my cues on that subject from him over somebody like Obama who has no track record to speak of, in that area…