[W]e do have evidence for an alternative explanation of what motivated Bybee to write his memo that August, thanks to the comprehensive Senate Armed Services Committee report on detainees released last week.
The report found that Maj. Paul Burney, a United States Army psychiatrist assigned to interrogations in Guantánamo Bay that summer of 2002, told Army investigators of another White House imperative: “A large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq and we were not being successful.” As higher-ups got more “frustrated” at the inability to prove this connection, the major said, “there was more and more pressure to resort to measures” that might produce that intelligence.
In other words, the ticking time bomb was not another potential Qaeda attack on America but the Bush administration’s ticking timetable for selling a war in Iraq; it wanted to pressure Congress to pass a war resolution before the 2002 midterm elections. Bybee’s memo was written the week after the then-secret (and subsequently leaked) “Downing Street memo,” in which the head of British intelligence informed Tony Blair that the Bush White House was so determined to go to war in Iraq that “the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.” A month after Bybee’s memo, on Sept. 8, 2002, Cheney would make his infamous appearance on “Meet the Press,” hyping both Saddam’s W.M.D.s and the “number of contacts over the years” between Al Qaeda and Iraq. If only 9/11 could somehow be pinned on Iraq, the case for war would be a slamdunk.
But there were no links between 9/11 and Iraq, and the White House knew it. Torture may have been the last hope for coercing such bogus “intelligence” from detainees who would be tempted to say anything to stop the waterboarding.
Read the whole article. There’s a lot more.
How were interrogations done during WWII? Battle of wits style.
Torture or Enhanced Interrogation, no court rights for enemy combatants or military tribunals, etc., we have allowed our moral bearings to be questioned and ridiculed by countries like Iran and Sudan. All this for the sake of expediency.
This is what you get when people with no nuance run things.
Since we do things to prisoners, its now clear to our enemies that they fight to finish to avoid the humiliation and torture of surrender. I can only imagine what will be done to our soldiers when captured.
I gotta give Dvorak credit, his blog draws all sorts.
President Obama sure has a tough job along the lines of prosecuting the criminal element during Cheney’s presidency.
On the one hand, he must feel obligated to prosecute the gestapo element in our government that violated the treaty signed by President Reagan regarding torture.
On the other hand, having Dickless Cheney and Cuntilina Rice imprisoned for life simply will get the Pro-Torture/ Pro-Life loonies on the march.
I hope we quickly pass through this phase in his administration so he can continue to focus on the economic mess left behind by the GOP.
The link to the Downing Street Memo is foolish, as it is just a misunderstanding of British English and how they use ‘fixed’. I thought liberals were supposed to be more intelligent?
If they wanted to have such intelligence, they’d have done so. Links can be found pretty easily.
In my Washington Post piece, I was citing the very documents which President Obama released, which quote the CIA saying that interrogation with enhanced techniques “led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the ‘Second Wave,’ to ‘use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.” The memo released by Obama goes on the explain that “information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemmah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the ‘Second Wave.’”
But of course ‘torture never works’
Alfred1 it is “Poisoning the Well” if there was a well. What is the technical term for lying to the public to get into a war? What language can you use when it obvious that every reason used to get it into the war has proven wrong. At what point are you allowed to call a lair a lair without “Poisoning the Well”?
#9, Alfred1, “The crimes against this country and its people remain hidden by a willing media.”
So you don’t think there’s another Woodward and Bernstein out there just drooling to bust some big news? How sad you think the media is just one big conspiracy.
Bobbo, Mr. Fusion, I’ll leave this one for you, I’ll not be back for awhile. Astronomy hours.
Uncle Dave said, “How were interrogations done during WWII? Battle of wits style.”
Ummm, those were legal combatants. In other words, POWs. Apples to apples would be how we treated un-uniformed enemy combatants like those we captured from Operation Pastorius. FDR had them executed.
Maybe a US History class is in order for you.
So, “Dave” we should follow FDRs example…
#12 BubbaRay
>>How sad you think the media is just one big conspiracy.
The media is a joke for many reasons, They are decidedly lazy with an overwhelming need to sensationalize news items to sell advertising. They are certainly not above stretching the truth in order to push their personal political agenda.
You don’t have to be part of a conspiracy to forget why you exist in the first place.
#13–Paddy-Zero==as usual, you miss the relevant points of the discussion. On the issue of “effectiveness” the legality of the contestants is irrelevant.
So, now, with months and years of hindsight the rightwing still wants to support the Bush Cabal’s unilateral invasion of Iraq and bankrupting of America? Obviously, this is an issue of faith as facts have no bearing.
“…So you don’t think there’s another Woodward and Bernstein out there just drooling to bust some big news? How sad you think the media is just one big conspiracy….”
There may be lots of Woodward and Bernsteins out there. However it wasn’t them who made the decisions and had the courage to print the Watergate story. It was the editor and the owners of the newspaper they worked for,
In today’s corporate media, that courage was removed. Large corporations own TV networks. Newspapers were leveraged up the ying-yang an can’t afford to offend any advertiser. The fact is, modern MSM is corporate America’s bitch.
Modern Woodward and Bernsteins are only left with Blogs, which may or may not get read.
#10, Lyin’ Mike,
Go back and read your comment again. Then come back and tell us what the hell you are trying to say. And seriously, are you really trying to defend torture?
Alphie, the Quaalude Queen,
#1,
A critical thinker immediately spots the ad hominem called “Poisoning the Well” which attempts to preclude discussion by use of loaded language which attack the credibility of White House without any proof.
Ya think?
Well again you are wrong. This is a well thought through article using several sources. He backs up every claim. This is quite the opposite of claiming Barrack Obama sold drugs as a youth or that our President is a Manchurian candidate.
The conclusion “but there were no links” is a conclusion of the lefty author…NOT ESTABLISHD either.
Wrong again. It is established that there were no links between Iraq and 9/11. It is irrelevant and an ad hominem attack just because you disagree with the author’s politics. Even Jesus was right when he said “He who has not sinned should cast the first stone.” If Jesus could be right, why can’t Rich?
The slander ” Torture may have been the last hope for coercing such bogus “intelligence” from detainees …
Can you provide any evidence that would refute this, other than your saliva on your monitor. Do you know as a FACT that prisoners were tortured for any other reason?
#2,
“in 2004, Rich dismissed Mel Gibson’s film The Passion of the Christ, as “nothing so much as a porn movie,”
It is pornographic and extremely ugly. Also it appears to be very poorly directed. My understanding is that you had to be mentally deranged already to enjoy it.
#3,
Oh..and lets not overlook his attempt to paint the murderers “Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris” …
You mean they read the bible, and killed cats, and ate dead babies, …? Read the whole column before you start picking apart sentences out of context.
#5
The greatest criminal enterprise in history, the bailouts etc, remains censored on Dvorak uncensored …
If you don’t like it, get your own effen blog. It would probably end up being a low hit blog, but hey, you’re an idiot anyway.
#9
the bigger the lie, the more it will be believed
Hence why the Christian faith, as with most religions, survived and prospered for so many years.
# 15 bobbo said, “as usual, you miss the relevant points of the discussion.”
Actually, I addressed the only issue that can be proven with irrefutable facts. The rest is a conspiracy theory that may or may not be correct.
Alfie the pretzel==so bent, by now must be looking at his own asshole.
MISDIRECTION? You mean like trying to move a discussion about Bush Torture Policy to one of Financial Incompetency?
Yes, there are always “other issues” that can be discussed. Why don’t you stop misdirecting this thread and stick to the TOPIC AT HAND.
Actually, since you did not support the Iraq invasion, why the hissy fit over closely related issues? Why care?
#21–Paddoy-O-Stubborn==so you admit your posting(s) are irrelevant but you want to persist because they are irrefutable?
Hah, hah.
Lead a mule to water, hit him with a baseball bat, force his head underwater, and the jackass still won’t drink the water of reason. You see, waterboarding really doesn’t work.
# 23 bobbo said, “Hah, hah.”
Hmm, I see your typical post. No facts, just incoherent babbling. Cool.
#25–Paddy-O-Jackass.
Hah, hah.
#24–Alfie the misdirected. I think 90% of those that follow any news at all know the basic outlines of what caused the meltdown. What some enjoy arguing about is how back in time to go. Can we include Clinton, or is it pretty much Bush. What some enjoy arguing about is the proportion of blame between the Excutive and Legislative Branch who BOTH failed in their oversight duties.
The cause of the meltdown is known, political apportionment of fault will never be decided.
Good review of Bush’s Torture Program though. Bravo.
# + way too many.
I can’t PROVE it but I’d bet anything the interrogation script was loaded with questions about Iraq. If that’s established will you please shut the fuck up ?
#16, Alphie, the Quaalude Queen,
But the allegation Bush purposely tortured people to justify the war, is UNPROVEN CLAIM, a theory that I don’t believe fits all the facts that are known…
Isn’t the same said about the bible, only with more evidence that it doesn’t fit the facts?
@Uncle Dave : “How were interrogations done during WWII?” – depending on situation. I say, treat terrorists same as the Japanese defenders were treated during the battle on their own soil (Okinawa), all of which were regular nation-army members and should have received Geneva Convention treatment.
What happened there? Underground network turned too puzzling and dangerous. So, by recently televised interview of actual US soldiers participating in the battle there (and maybe documented in other places), order came to torture captured Japanese to extract as much info as possible as fast as possible and than EXECUTE them (soldier was specific on this , Jap’s either got bullet in the head or had their throat slashed). Because danger to multitude of US forces was overwhelming and other actions placed too much burden on the fighting forces.
My questions to Uncle Dave: Have we descended into mayhem since? Have any opposing WWII country or allies ever complained over this issue? Was this torture and murder on next day (week) front page? Was anyone up the chain of command prosecuted over it? Have these actions fundamentally affected rights we have or give to prisoners of war in general since?
Weak try, Uncle Dave.
Waterboarding was not illegal and it was not classified as torture in 2002. There is no legal leg to stand on with these lame political attacks.
#32, benson,
Waterboarding was not illegal and it was not classified as torture in 2002.
Once again you couldn’t be more wrong. Of course spouting this bullshit makes you feel good. Torture of any kind WAS illegal under US Law, Military Law, and the Geneva Conventions. Guess what. It is still illegal today.
Bad try asswipe. This is the second time I have corrected you on this bullshit.
#31, Dusan,
I say, treat terrorists same as the Japanese defenders were treated during the battle on their own soil (Okinawa), all of which were regular nation-army members and should have received Geneva Convention treatment.
Very few of the Japanese Army survived the battle. Those that weren’t killed outright, were ordered to commit suicide. Very few surrendered.
by recently televised interview of actual US soldiers participating in the battle there (and maybe documented in other places), order came to torture captured Japanese to extract as much info as possible as fast as possible and than EXECUTE them
I call bullshit on this one. I am unaware and in a quick on-line search found nothing to substantiate your claim. Even if your comment is true, one crime does not justify the furtherance of that or the committing of another crime.
Have we descended into mayhem since? Have any opposing WWII country or allies ever complained over this issue? Was this torture and murder on next day (week) front page? Was anyone up the chain of command prosecuted over it? Have these actions fundamentally affected rights we have or give to prisoners of war in general since?
Fair questions, BUT, your claim is still unproven. If they were factual, they should have been prosecuted.
War is not pleasant and in most conflicts there are many tragedies. Very few of them, especially those committed by the victors, are ever punished. But that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be. Again, using an incident that happened 60 years ago is silly and any crime should be punished.
If torture really worked then the world would have been a much much better place. But it isn’t right now…that means the torture supporters should be tortured to death.
Methinks we have a Limbaugh making up shit and signing as alfredi here.
Alfred1, your comments on the bailout, etc are completely off topic. Take it to a post about those subjects or to CageMatch. Please.
alfred1 doesn’t have to worry, these guys will stop that evil President and restore the Republic for all Roman citizens.
Poor alfred1,
He obviously knows a thing or two about critical thinking and logical fallacies, but only sees it when someone disagrees with him. He does not realize thathe is doing it himself.
In a discussion about torture and its uses, Alfred keeps bringing up the bailout and banking scndal, which while important, have no relevance to this discussion. (Know in logical fallacy circles as the “non-sequitir”, but more commonly referred in internet circles as hijacking a thread), and whats worse complains about “misdirection” in the media when that is exactly what he is trying to do with this discussion.
Then he keeps bringing up Frank Rich’s opinion of Columbine, which is even less relevent (known in logical fallacy circles as an “attacking the messenger” fallacy). Then he attacks the media as a whole (fallacy of composition).
Sigh.