Here’s O’Reilly trying to get military experts to agree with him.
Here are two from Shepard Smith who is violently opposed.
Support the Blog — Buy This Book!
For Kindle and with free ePub version. Only $9.49 Great reading.
Here is what Gary Shapiro CEO of the Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) said: Dvorak's writing sings with insight and clarity. Whether or not you agree with John's views, he will get you thinking and is never boring. These essays are worth the read!
Put this ad on your blog!
Syndicate
Subscribe to Main Blog feed here:
Subscribe to Comments too (below):
Junk Email Filter
This EXACTLY the type of interrogation Cheney had with the experts that said “Mr. Cheney, there are no WMD’s in Iraq”.
It is still unclear if Cheney water boarded the government researchers.
No one seems to agree on what “torture” is…of course everyone’s against it but no one defines the term.
So I get that we can’t beat our enemies senseless within an inch of their life (that’s what rendition is for when we don’t want to get our hands really dirty).
What can we do that will scare them enough to give us the truth? I mean besides harsh words…
The first video is classic Billy O. Yell at someone when they don’t give the answer you want them to give or when they disagree with you.
I can’t get audio at work. Which one was David Rittgers and what was his opinion on the issue? I am just curious.
Shepard Smith … I bit of clear water in a toilet bowl.
america used to be bigger than this
#4–Benji==Rittgers came off very poorly. Wouldn’t answer the direct question: If waterboarding saved lives, would you do it? He waffled and evaded all over the place implying he would not waterboard no matter what.
I did not find O’Reilly trying to force agreement because the two guests wouldn’t answer the setup questions so he couldn’t get to the disagreement. Tellingly, he agreed with the first guy who said he needed more information to answer the question.
Shepard Smith was clear water–devoid of nutrients or any real worth. You have to be only simple minded to say “We are Americans and we Don’t Torture.” and then FAIL TO DEFINE TORTURE!!!!!!!
The interesting issue about WATERBOARDING is that it is a general description that can describe “harsh technique” or TORTURE depending on exactly what was done. That is what can make it so effective, or just torture.
Idiots who won’t define their terms are not worth listening to.
Darn, meant to add that I think Cliff May’s position is the best one of most I have heard. He DEFINES the terms used. Other people just want to mouth pieties and keep the issues vague.
Note Mays (sp?) crucial distinction on “does torture work”: torture to coerce false confessions is different than torture to secure the truth. Add that to Oreillys guest who said that torture for “situational awareness” did not work but that torture for “specific threat scenarios” could work.
Yes–not only do you have to DEFINE your terms, you have to discuss the subject with those definitions IN MIND. Few people appear capable of that and those are the ones who aren’t even intentionally trying to foul the market place of ideas.
Faux News is in permanent OFF mode in my home. Who the hell other than other neo-fascists wanting their world view “validated” care what any of those ultra-biased, shouting, neo-fascist idiots say?
What was done was _torture_ as confirmed by the Red Cross and others. And this time, they were stupid enough to get their fingerprints on it. But this is all a tempest in a teapot since, as was done in the past, the US will simply go back to using foreign proxies to torture people for them and pretend they don’t know how the information was obtained. “We” have always tortured, but in the past “we” have always let others do it for us.
1. Torture is like pornography, you can’t define it, but you know it when you see it. Torture is any technical designed to scare/hurt someone into involuntarily giving up information. There are DEGREES of torture of course, from minor psychological to severe physical.
2. We don’t torture. Or we shouldn’t. Terrorism will never ‘defeat’ America. That’s not the point. The Oklahoma City bombers didn’t really think they would stop the American government by murdering a dozen or so social security and postal workers, but they did it anyway. Terrorism is about scaring your enemy to the point they damage themselves. Giving up our ‘good guy’ status and becoming ‘end justifies the means’ guys means the terrorist won.
“Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither” – BF
Torture can certainly be defined. Doesn’t mean EVERYONE (including the Red Cross) will agree.
Poking an eye out==torture.
Thumbscrew==torture.
Waterboarding==what we do to our own troops in training==NOT TORTURE.
Waterboarding==183 drips to the face==pretty obviously NOT TORTURE.
Waterboarding==no doctor present by untrained personnel for no specific information goal that exceeds what we would do to our own troops==TORTURE.
But in unique situations, even TORTURE should be allowed as authorized by named officials on a complete written and video record pursuant to court prior approval.
The world can be a nasty place and innocent lives are worth giving up fantasy morality that stand up only by never being personally relevant.
bobbo, thanks for the summary on what David Rittgers said. Is he the guy in the middle or on the right in the video?
#2, love child,
No one seems to agree on what “torture” is…of course everyone’s against it but no one defines the term.
Only the right whine nuts claim it is undefined.
torture
Bobbo,
I am surprised at your waffling. I have come to expect far more reasonable response from you.
Torture can be physical, mental, or both. If you think the Japanese locking an American POW in a sheet metal box in the hot sun for a few days wasn’t torture, there might be a few survivors left alive to disagree with you. There most certainly are a lot of current soldiers that would think it was torture. But it appears you and Mr. Mays think that is just fine as there was no poker to the eye.
Fox News, MSNBC, and CNN are all equally devoid of real content.
#11
This is why torture isn’t easy to define. Waterboarding isn’t torture? The United States Army thinks so…it prosecuted Japanese after WWII for that AS A CRIME against our soldiers. I guess the United States Army in WWII was just a bunch of whimps.
You think it’s not torture because our soldiers are trained to resist it? That doesn’t make logical sense.
#12–Benji==the video part works showing him to be the guy on the right. I think both guests had a lot to say on the issues of information gathering/torture but OReilly is NOT the venue for sharing expertise.
#14–Fusion==heh, heh. I have watched you get too easily exercised by people who disagree with you. While I think it is warranted against (you know who), I think your stimulus to do so has become a bit generalized?
But because you and I are pretty close on many issues, it would be “fun” and hopefully instructive to us both if we could thrash thru some of these issues? The easy cases are not interesting, only those close to the “line.”
1. I don’t see me waffling at all. In fact, just the opposite. I was quite DIRECT. Please confirm where I waffled.
2. Torture can be physical, mental, or both /// I agree.
3. If you think the Japanese locking an American POW in a sheet metal box in the hot sun for a few days wasn’t torture, there might be a few survivors left alive to disagree with you. /// Fusion==NOT RELEVANT. The issue being discussed is WATERBOARDING/TORTURE. I SAID poked eyes and thumb screws were TORTURE so I have no problem admitting such cases when they meet my (undisclosed) definition. So, since the HOT BOX scenario has NEVER been discussed, I’ll ask you to guess my response if you continue to think it is relevant to this discussion. Surely such a conclusion is time related, or per cent of dehydration achieved? How about walking the prisoner by it and pointing to it? Is THAT torture Fusion?
Stand your ground, make your case, === be relevant.
#11
And it wasn’t 183 individual ‘drips’ of water on the face. It was 183 INSTANCES of a waterboarding interrogations. Having a ‘doctor’ stand by doesn’t make it not torture, because the blindfolded guy doesn’t KNOW there’s a doctor there and doesn’t KNOW how far the procedure will go. It’s a psychological torture, unlike a physical torture (pulling nails) but that doesn’t make it NOT torture for crying out load.
We’re NOT the bad guys. We can’t fall to “the end justifies the means”. We could have gotten all our information via normal interrogations (so says the FBI, CIA and Army interrogators). We MAY have gotten some valid information during these waterboardings, but there is NO logic that says we wouldn’t have gotten the same info via other methods.
Never the less, even if we all never agree on whether this was torture or not, we can NOT ever complain about this being done to OUR people again because of this. Remember when one of our “listening” spy plans had to make an emergency landing in China and they were held for a week (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident)?
What if China has done what we did? Stripped our soldier naked, piled them up, hooded them and stood them on boxes for hours, then waterboarded them 183 times. We would have GONE NUTS! Now we can’t say a DAMN THING because it’s perfectly legal and nothing wrong with it…not ‘normal’ interrogation, no different than just talking to people.
#16–Different==reading comprehension/common sense problems?
You ask “Waterboarding isn’t torture?” ===can’t you understand the plain statement that I made that it can be or not all as a matter of degree? Do you understand what a continuum is? Do you understand I can shave you with a razor or cut your throat all depending on the continuum of pressure used? Do you equate a nice shave with having your throat cut? If not, don’t be as equally dull witted on the issue of waterboarding.
“You think it’s not torture because our soldiers are trained to resist it?” /// Correct. I don’t think you think otherwise either==just immaturely caught up in the unrealized consequences of your own illogic. What do you bet what happens during training is not the EXACT same thing the Japanese did during WW2==shave vs throat cut.
“That doesn’t make logical sense.” /// I agree, one of us lack logical sense==or maybe just a lack of appreciation for “definitions” or that words can be inclusive or quite discrete.
This can be a calendar marking day for you, should you choose to learn anything.
#18–Different==183 drips of 183 instances. How do you know? I saw it reported that the report was a counting of each time water was dripped onto the face. That makes a lot of common sense to me, the type of detailed note taking that a skilled observer should make for comparing techniques from case to case.
Where did you get your definition or do words mean whatever you wish them to be and all others use them just the same way?
Lets sum up:
1. We all agree there are degrees of torture.
2. We will never all agree on WHERE the bar is on the line of degrees of torture…where the line is crossed. That’s a matter of opinion.
3. It’s impossible to say whether information obtained for these ‘techniques’ would have been obtained otherwise. AP: “Secret Justice Department memos released last week, revealing the CIA’s harshest interrogation methods, do little to resolve the question. The memos credit waterboarding, face slapping, sleep deprivation and other techniques for producing the country’s best intelligence following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. They also note that nonviolent tactics more often were successful than violence.”
4. All of these tactics, which I guess ARE allowed under the Geneva Convention according to their supporters, can now be done on our soldiers and we have no recourse to complain since they’re NOT torture.
#18–Different==can’t use the establishment of trust and a relationship when “time is of the essence.” The “ends” is all that does justify action taken. Don’t confuse ends you agree with, with ends you disagree with. Prison itself is an end justified by keeping people off the street.
#19–Different==more hormonal hysteria? The Chinese could torture the China Aircrew for what purpose? Were the China Aircrew part of a terrorist attack on China. Read my comments, buy a dictionary, read the dictionary: torture for situational awareness is not effective.
#21 – Where did I get 183 “times” vs. 183 drips of water? I read it on CNN, AP and the Christian Science Monitor. If they were all wrong, I apologize. Where did you read your information?
And Fox News
#24 – So torture ISN’T ok by China just to get intelligence information in general. What in the world are you talking about? If what we’re talking about is NOT torture (according to YOU) then you don’t need “justification” to do it. It’s just interrogation according to you, perfectly legal. So why COULDN’T China do it just to attempt to get some security information. Would it have been effective, probably not, I agree. But the POINT was, if you were paying attention, the point was that we couldn’t have complained since it’s NOT torture, just interrogation.
That’s the point we’re arguing. If you’re saying in bad times we can do bad things, then I think we just agree to disagree.
#26–Different==fair link. Notice it doesn’t “define” what waterboarding is. Why in the world would you think it means any particular single thing?
My own common sense thought “gee, 183 sounds like a lot.” So==some news commentor female made the point on a talk show that they were counting “drips” or individual pourings of water during the various “sessions.”
Doesn’t that just make good common sense? Its the only account that included any kind of definition, so it has credibility in my mind.
You do understand how much in life is definitional? Does she love me? Does she not? Define love before you go torture a flower.
#28 – Why would YOU think it means something different than how it’s been defined and discussed in EVERY previous instance? I’ve NEVER heard of ‘waterboarding’ meaning tying someone down and dripping one or two drops of water on them then letting them up…then later doing that again. I ASSUME it means what’s been discussed and explained before. That is an ASSUMPTION, but still. Since Fox, NBC, AP, and every other source has talked about this as individual sessions, I’ll go with that. If Glen Beck or some random commentator says different, I’ll take that for what it’s worth…a random guess/opinion.
THANKS for the honest discussion, glad you’re engaged in this even if we don’t agree 100%. Gotta get back to work here, I can’t listen to hours of AM talk radio or blog chat, I have a job (LOL). Keep up the debate!
#12, Bobbo,
The easy cases are not interesting, only those close to the “line.”
OK, I agree. This should be a bright line though. If a San Bernardino cop water boarded a prisoner in order to find out where the others were holed up happened, would that be justifiable? Of course not! He would be prosecuted himself. If you water boarded a bill collector in order to coerce him to stop harassing you, how would you plead?
Torture is either wrong or it is acceptable. When we start splitting hairs to “define” what it is then you know that you (in the general sense) are wrong. It doesn’t make one bit of difference if a Doctor observes or not if a person is being water boarded, kept chained uncomfortably in a cold cell, drugged, subjected to white noise, forced to join in a naked human pyramid, jolted with electricity through his dick, have his family threatened, or whatever “enhanced” techniques were used. If that San Bernardino cop would be prosecuted for doing it then so should those who did it in Guantanamo.
Recently an American journalist was arrested and tried in Iran. She was given an eight year sentence. Why, we don’t even know what she was charged with. How the hell can America stand up and complain when we have done the exact same to Iranians in Guantanamo? We don’t have the moral right to complain, we lost that right by the actions of the Bush Administration.
The “Hot Box” didn’t injure the occupant unless they were denied water. But it did mess with their brain. The isolation, the heat, the four close walls echoing your labored breathing, … . Yes, it is the same as water boarding in what it does to a person. And Japanese Officers were tried for torture for exactly that reason.