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GM shares have been rising on hopes of more bailout money, but 2/3 of retirement eligible workers don’t like GM’s buyout offer.
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Of course the workers don’t like the proposed offer. They’re going to get reamed.
But then again, they have been reaming GM for decades…
Did the workers not realize that their benefit pyramid scheme would end someday? That’s the nature of pyramid schemes…
I’m still looking for the documentary, but apparently, GM was always big on pumping up the union contracts since they KNEW Ford and Chrysler would have match.
GM was the biggest of the three and wanted to squeeze the profitability of their two competitors and increasing the labour costs was a sure way of doing it. Of course, Ford, GM and Chrysler were not competitors in the 80’s or the 90’s. The real competition was from overseas.
So, while GM tried to screw over their buddies, they ended up screwing over themselves…
The nail in GM’s coffin will be their long time push to sell big vehicles that no one wants to buy.
The closing of the aviation unit as one of the ballons in the photo is laughable. You won’t even notice it on the company’s balance sheet a year from now.
#2, Cow-Paddy, Ignorant Shit Talking Sociopath, Retired Mall Rent-A-Cop, Pretend Constitutional Scholar, Fake California Labor Law Expert, Pseudo Military Historian, Phony Climate Scientist, and Real Leading Troll Extraordinare,
Did the workers not realize that their benefit pyramid scheme would end someday? That’s the nature of pyramid schemes…
We realize how you make shit up, but please, explain how the employees had a “pyramid scheme”?
First things first….I do work for GM. Having said that, the reason 2/3 of the retirement eligible workers didnt take the buyout (or at least what i heard on my plant floor) is the car voucher. most of them were not in the market for a new car and the car voucher is worthless paper if you dont use it. one thing that has not been reported about this is that the UAW does have a tenative agreement with GM but does not have the VEBA part settled yet. my guess is that the UAW isnt agreeing totally until the bondholders come on board since any concessions mean nothing if bondholders force bankruptcy anyway.
#3-you are right about that kind of tactic. its the same tactic ford is using with its UAW negotiations right now. also realize, all union contracts were approves BY MANAGEMENT also. the union didnt come in with a gun and get everything it demanded. management went along with all contracts. maybe we need a change of management?? on both sides?? you wont get an argument from me on that…
#4- We did not push anyone to buy big vehicles. Last time i checked we do not have a thug division that hangs out at dealerships and says ‘BUY A GAS GUZZLING SUV OR ELSE!!’ the public and marketplace wanted (and contrary to popular belief still does) these suvs. one thing people must understand is that you cannot just turn, say, a plant making suburbans overnight into a plant that makes cobalts and g5’s. it takes years and tons of capital (right now both GM does not have) to do something like this. there was an article the other day about the smart car’s just sitting on lots because PEOPLE DON’T WANT THEM. the marketplace for all autos right now is very fluid, and the first company to figure out how to be the most flexible will win.
#7
Just curious. What do you think of the UAW and the current situation? As a well rounded engineer who also specialize in logistics and manufacturing I see the UAW, mostly, being an obstacle to someone in my profession who strives to do on a daily basis; and that is to make constant improvements for better efficiency, cost reductions and a better working environment for the workers. The last bit I hardly see any professional do anymore.
In the simplest terms I talking about working the whole six sigma, tps, lean manufacturing, etc across the whole company. I’ve done it before, they’re costly, time consuming and really require the support of upper management to succeed. I don’t think it is “almost” impossible for the big3 to get that far. What do you think?
madtruckman,
I work contractually to take care of you GM workers and the mental health benefits. There are far too many that take “breaks” by constantly going in and out of rehab. No one seems to have a problem since there are no ramifications of being a drug addict or lunatic. They fly under the radar because the union mentality is for the reps to save their jobs. There are far too many that make more money than the counselors and social workers that have a MASTERS DEGREE and yet blow all they money on rent to own crap, drugs and other shit people don’t need. Part of me says to let the GM bastards fail and fail miserably at that! I see the people that put the cars together and think to myself that I would never want to ride in one for safety concerns. I will continue to park my import at the back of the lot and happily walk the extra steps. The other part of me shivers at the thought of how big of a collapse our economy would have if the Big 3 actually went out of business. People DO want Smart Cars, but it is a niche market right now. Let me drive past the plant and tell you how many American made pieces of shit are parked in the lot right now though so you can get over your superiority complex.
America is changing. Yes, there will always be a market for full size trucks and SUVs. Just like there will always be a market for Smart Cars. More and more people though are figuring out that they can’t afford this Super Sized American Dream (financed by credit) that these huge corporations tried to sell us though. Maybe you weren’t intelligent enough to put together that people are hardly buying cars PERIOD. There are lots full of all brands of cars.
Unions had their place in history but this is now a GLOBAL marketplace. So go get you some Made In America New Balance shoes while it lasts because GM is going down and I will not be crying about it.
End of rant, I feel better.
Thanks madtruckman for a sensible and honest opinion.
7, Totally agreed on your comment to Floyd. There was a high demand (when gas was cheap) for trucks and SUVs. Trucks and SUVs dwarf cars in terms of profitability. Consumers dictated this trend. Not the Gestapo. Also, when’s the last time someone has griped about a crappy American SUV or Truck?
I know GM is fully capable of making quality vehicles. Toyota didn’t have a real truck until 2000 when the Tundra debuted. The Nissan Titan came out in 2004. Honda came out with their Ridgeline in 2005. Mitsubishi came out with their Raider (based on the Dodge Dakota) in 2005. Before all of this, the American brands OWNED the market and for the most part still do. Either way, trucks and SUVs have been the most profitable category. In this economy, they’ve obviously taken a nose dive.
GM’s public image has been on the decline for a while now due to IMHO how they reacted to government CAFÉ standards. Unfortunately for GM, a lot of people judged GM’s ability to make a quality automobile solely on GM’s cheaply built cars designed to get GM to comply with CAFÉ standards.
Since the Japanese and Europeans couldn’t compete against the Americans in the truck and SUV market for many decades, their primary focus has been on luxury, sport, or higher quality compact cars. Consequently since the Japanese and Europeans did not produce as many trucks and SUVs, they did not feel the pinch of the CAFÉ standards like GM, Ford, and Dodge did. So if nothing else, you could make the argument that CAFÉ standards were very much targeted at American automakers only.
Most people don’t understand that one of the biggest hurdles to fuel efficiency is dead weight. How do you easily make vehicles more fuel efficient? Stop using so much metal… which is why bumpers of today are cosmetic rather than serving any sort of safety feature. A truck or SUV with less metal pretty much means it’s less durable or reliable as a utility. A strong frame is very important. It’s a trade off for cars. What’s more important for you? Safety or fuel efficiency?
I always remember an article somewhere with a Japanese auto figure – who when asked after proclaiming that Toyota would one day become the largest auto maker in the world “What of General Motors ? ”
His answer was that “One day you will wake up and G.M. won’t matter”
The amazing part is not only how this has or is coming to pass in our lifetimes – is that first of all the clarity of people at the helm and the workers of Toyota , the short sightedness of those involved with GM – both management and the workers / unions
Did they not realize that they were not fighting with management or the unions that there business was to make and sell cars that consumers wanted not how much more they could either gouge the company or fight with the union
Now both are left in the dark – and even more amazing – ( or not amazing) clueless
Foolish spoiled children with their toys
And yet after bringing the ship down they are demanding more – either management with bonuses , and union heads
They should all be shot
Take a second look at the figures for pensions (7 billion with a B) and health benefits for retired workers (60 – sixty – billion with a B). The other stuff is chump change.
GM is not an auto manufacturer anymore. They are basically a giant pension fund, with an auto manufacturing concern on the side. This is not sustainable – it never was.
GM needs to be allowed to fail. Unions asked for stupid impossible unsustainable benefits. Management was dumb enough to sign that agreement, plus made other bad marketing decisions. It needs to fail, release the labor pool, and sell off the capital assets so another, wiser auto maker can pick it all up and succeed.
This is how capitalism is supposed to work.
Instead, we’re confiscating dollars from people who did obviously did not want to spend them on GM cars (or they would have bought them), and shoveling the money to GM anyway. This not only rewards failure, it also ensures that labor and capital continue to be wasted in on extremely inefficient organization. Stupid.
>The nail in GM’s coffin will be their long time push to sell big vehicles that no one wants to buy.
So how come Toyota is making their lineup bigger?
MikeN: I DID notice that Toyota’s cars were bigger at the auto show. I was surprised by that.
GM
This is reason number one
“Sub-par quality
Decades of focusing on profits over production have reduced market share by half”
“Quality may have improved but perception lags reality
I’d disagree with the “perception lags reality” They still have many worst cars out their only Chrysler scores lower in a sum of all models sold.
GM so often gives Capitalism a bad name, just about every thing good they have done has been forced down their throat. If they really can change their tune, it will take the better part of a decade of efficient reliably model production before I’d consider one of there cars. Lucky them I buy a new car every 10 to 12 years and I’m in a 05 right now so they have a shot.
Geash even Hyundai is better. They showed up here in the mid 80s with crap and now are a well respected contender. GM you can change perception but only if you truly deliver the goods company wide. Don’t blow it this time jerks I’m rooting for you.
#8-i believe from an hourly side that, and i can only speak to my plant and my situation, that we do try to make improvments. but understand that for many reasons, hourly people cant just go making changes willy-nilly whenever they want. these changes cant happen overnight. management/engineering have the final say on anything that gets done. we will put suggestions in and nothing will be done for sometimes years. could be due to lack of engineering staff, but who knows. the culture of cut out all fat at any costs a la toyota has just now started to kick in. this wasnt the major driving force for years cause profits were good. hopefully this crisis changes attitudes on both sides for constant improvement….
#9-your argument about our ‘drug addicts and lunatics’ could be applied to ANY auto manufacturer or company. yes i will admit unions cater to the lowest common denominator. that is one of the downsides of a union. as for making more than counselors or social workers with masters degrees, well, is it our fault that the marketplace dictates that? we have strived to get the best wages and benefits that we could. would you not do the same? would you go to your employer today and say ‘hey, ill take a 10% pay cut right now just cause im a nice guy’?? bet not…yes, taking govt money has changed this situation for us, and we have taken cuts in pay and hours that have not been reported in the news since that doesnt make headlines.
something i thought was interesting in the original picture posted that we now make $28 bucks an hour….i thought it was $75…or $70…or $65??? which is it?? i know what it is…but i hope this shows that the media all along has misrepresented to the public what our wages actually are. media? mispreresent??? can’t be….
13, I hate to burst your bubble but the current administration doesn’t seem to be very pro-capitalism.
Furthermore, I think all this going to congress and humbly asking for more tax payer’s dollars is all for show IMHO. GM knows they have the government by the balls. GM employs how many people directly and indirectly? A bankruptcy would have a domino effect of a sharp decline on tax revenue and a spike on unemployment claims. So who’s putting who in check? It’s a bad situation but since we’ve got an administration who doesn’t believe in capitalism, would expect them to bark a bit and then cough up more money for this dog and pony show.
madtruckman,
HELL NO it isn’t the same at any manufacturing facility or company! I came from a different manufacturing field and it was nothing like the socioeconomic cesspool that works at GM. Even other unions have in their contract language a set amount of treatment episodes. GM = UNLIMITED TREATMENT EPISODES. While we are forking over bailout money to your company where there are people going to rehab for their 8th, 9th, 10th time and so on. Those episodes cost thousands of dollars a pop! If the workers had to pay for their treatment and outpatient visits, I bet people would be getting real healthy and FAST! I can’t tell you how many times I have heard of GM workers abusing the system with this ping ponging in and out of facilities so they can waste time (out on “disability”) until they reach retirement age.
The market doesn’t dictate that your job is more valuable! Clearly auto manufacturing is not very profitable in the US! Just wait until you have to make it in “the real world”. You union folks got LUCKY! Those days are soon to be over.
The company could still run without the union but the union can’t do jack without the company. Should of thought about that.
18, not sure how you’re bursting my bubble; I agree the current administration is not pro-capitalism. I thought that was my point. Probably not making that clear enough, so here it is again:
Let capitalism work. No bailouts. Let GM Fail.
Gov’t should resist the urge to “just do something.” Do nothing; let nature take its course. Let GM declare bankruptcy and work from there, if they can – or liquidate, sell off assets, release the labor pool, and let someone else try their luck at making cars. FAIL.
Yeah I have to say, this whole “No one wants to buy big cars” thing is totally bogus. The fact of the matter is that people like their “SUVs” (an acronym which should not stand for sub-urban vehicle, as opposed to sports-utility), they like their trucks, and they like their big cars. Call it pretention, a fallic insufficiency, the (unfounded) perception of added safety, whatever you want to chalk it up to – Americans like their cars to be huge.
So you can’t fault them for not being able to turn on a dime when the shit hit the fan rather quickly.
That being said, you *can* fault them for refusing to change in the face of changing tides. That’s just plain bad judgment.
“Do nothing; let nature take its course. Let GM declare bankruptcy and work from there, if they can – or liquidate, sell off assets, release the labor pool, and let someone else try their luck at making cars.”
The problem with this theory is that it’s the equivalent of saying “Fuck New Orleans, let Katrina take its course. Those that survive the hurricane can rebuild their houses, piece their lives back together, and start from zero. Let some other enterprising citizen move in and try their luck at making a city on the bayou.”
Darwinistic, yes. But hardly a humanistic or humanizing philosophy.
16, I’ll agree with you on “sub-par” quality if we’re talking on the cheap compact cars GM made to offset the poor fuel economy of their high quality trucks and SUVs due to CAFE standards. Their trucks, SUVs, and luxury cars are certainly not suffering from a quality problem.
In fact, GM gets auto parts from the same suppliers that Toyota uses.
Perception really does lag reality. You’re letting your perception of one of GM’s market segments drive what you think is the reality of their entire fleet of automobiles. But I’ll humor you and say there’s a ton of those crappy vehicles out there and it takes time to change perception. Hyundai did it. Goldstar did it (they’re called LG now).
By the way, Hyundai is government subsidized…. just in case you didn’t know that.
20, I read you loud and clear. Just saying that your cries are falling on deaf ears with this administration…. in other words, you’re pissing in the wind. 🙂
I really think GM should put the plug as soon as possible. Does anybody on this site know if a buyout from Toyota is likely to happen? Or any other car company for that matter? The only way I can see things improve for GM, is if they embrace alternative fuel technology. Electric/hybrid cars and trucks, and make these vehicles affordable.
If I were to purchase a domestic car today, it would be a ford. The Fusions are really nice looking cars, as well as the Mustangs.
I currently drive a Honda RSX, and it’s the nicest car I’ve ever driven.
# 24 kmach844 said, “The only way I can see things improve for GM, is if they embrace alternative fuel technology. Electric/hybrid cars and trucks, and make these vehicles affordable. ”
Even the companies who have “embraced” this tech can’t make them truly competitive. No, GM needs to slash costs and make top notch vehicles.
Good luck.
Slash costs and make top notice vehicles…. I highly doubt that GM can deliver. I really don’t care personally if they go out of business or not. I don’t own stock in any of these companies, and I don’t work for them. At the end of the day I can really care less. The last chevy that I owned was a piece of crap.
You would think that GM’s business plan is to provide health care benefits to union workers and obscene bonuses to upper auto industry executives
I would like to be paid a million dollars a year to drive truck . Don’t think I will get it .
Think of the poor guys who own GM dealerships now or their workers who sell and service these automotive vehicles
If anyone deserves it they do
Wonder if they get GM benefits and health care
Sorry, the workers nor unions didn’t ream GM. Sure, corrupt union heads ate up some money that should have gone to workers but when the heads of GM always dealt with the UAW in bad faith, made poor product – and this isn’t just perception, look at the current Consumer Reports to see the black marks on GM cars versus the best cars and you’ll see this continues – and focus on short term profit over long term viability really hurt them.
Another argument against “the unions messed us up” argument is look at the toyota plants and how they aren’t doing so well either right now. Better, but still not good.
Then there’s the regularly overpaid top management and the real disregard they hold for company towns such as Flint. Ask them about it civilly and you’ll get either the boot or ignored or a non-answer.
I think the best answer is to split up the whole company into smaller units. Allow new companies to form out of the ashes, unionized, with the top management’s pay pegged at a good multiple of the average workers salary plus incentives for responsible and measured growth. Hey, America needs new car manus and all these overly large corporations are TOO LARGE TO EXIST.
But this is peanuts compared to the greed going on with the wall street companies anyway.
the EV1 was costing more to produce than they were making, that’s why they killed it. The manufacturers make the most money off of SUV and trucks, and the least off of fuel efficient vehicles. I would think that an intelligent person who wants to save GM would want them to sell more SUVs or up the price on smaller cars. But then again, people who want to “save” the planet with electric cars are morons.
#23
Guyver
Ok let’s look at GM’s offerings I’m trying want them.
I’ll admit if I was looking for a full size pickup I’d look at the Avalanche (very clever design) and the Silverado(very competitive) but that’s it. In every other segment they are not up with the best the market has to offer. The Malibu/Aura and Lucerne come close but still fall short of the best for the money in their segments. The G8 intrigues me but it’s to new and it’s a Holden import anyway if you really look into it. The Vibe is more Toyota than GM. Sorry most of The Caddy’s still have reliability issues, same with the Vett. In the rest of the segments they don’t even have a horse placing in the race. Did I miss something? My perceptions can be changed with competitive fuel economy for the segment and at least five years of better than the competition repair history numbers.
Ok full size pickups, no surprise but and even there the F150, Ram, Tundra and Titan look good too. Not as clever as the Avalanche.
I want them to make it that’s why I’m posting my views on where they are falling short in offerings. Oh and lack luster styling but I’d admit that is in the eye of the title beholder