The percentage of people who call themselves in some way Christian has dropped more than 11% in a generation. The faithful have scattered out of their traditional bases: The Bible Belt is less Baptist. The Rust Belt is less Catholic. And everywhere, more people are exploring spiritual frontiers — or falling off the faith map completely.
These dramatic shifts in just 18 years are detailed in the new American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS), to be released today. It finds that, despite growth and immigration that has added nearly 50 million adults to the U.S. population, almost all religious denominations have lost ground since the first ARIS survey in 1990.
“More than ever before, people are just making up their own stories of who they are. They say, ‘I’m everything. I’m nothing. I believe in myself,’ ” says Barry Kosmin, survey co-author.
Among the key findings in the 2008 survey:
• So many Americans claim no religion at all (15%, up from 8% in 1990), that this category now outranks every other major U.S. religious group except Catholics and Baptists. In a nation that has long been mostly Christian, “the challenge to Christianity … does not come from other religions but from a rejection of all forms of organized religion,” the report concludes.
[…]
Meabh Fitzpatrick, 49, of Rutland, Vt., says she is upfront about becoming an atheist 10 years ago because “it’s important for us to be counted. I’m a taxpayer and a law-abiding citizen and an ethical person, and I don’t think people assume this about atheists.”
# 106 FRAGaLOT said, “Actually as long as religion exists, we are more suspectable to anarchy if something comes along to prove religion is bullshit (like alien life were to be made a fact)”
How would that prove anything about the subject of religion? Certain religions maybe, not all by any stretch.
#95 strata
>>We have a comedian here. Thanks for the biggest laugh in my day so far!
Thank you and good night! Don’t forget to tip your waitresses.
#106 Fragalot
>>You don’t need Christians nor religion to be a good person.
You are absolutely correct – those with a functioning conscience often do quite well.
>>“Sin” is just a way to control people from doing evil, or you go to hell.
If sin (right and wrong) didn’t exist then you would have a point. But since sin does exist it must be factored into the big picture.
At any bible thumper that dares to answer.
Although I have used this example several times, it bears repeating.
My niece was born with spina bifida. Her mother and father are true believers. Her grandfather was a Baptist Pastor before he died at 41*. Her grandmother reads her bible and prays at least an hour every day.
But she was born with spina bifida. Her collar bone was attached to the next vertebrae. And several vertebrae were misaligned. She had several operations before she was seven to correct the problems. She still has the rods in her back. Her spine is still crooked. The only time she missed Sunday School was when she was in the Hospital. A beautiful woman.
She just had a birthday. Yup, a Sophomore in High School now. Straight As and B+s. Her spine is still a little bent. Her hips aren’t aligned. Her head sits just off a little. The small of her back is accented. Yet the prettiest smile you can imagine. Framed with the softest chestnut hair only an artist could appreciate.
So why did “god” screw up this little one’s life? Why would he allow her to be afflicted by such a condition? What did she do to deserve such a fate?
Well, Nimby knows. And I’m quite sure several others here know. And the answer is so effen stupid I want to cry. Because her effen fat slob mother was too busy praying to “god”, along with the grandmother, to bother taking any folic acid supplements or eat any leafy green vegetables. It is the lack of folic acid that causes spina bifida. Well, if it isn’t folic acid, then it sure the hell ain’t lack of prayer that causes it and since we know the scientific answer, it can’t be “god works in mysterious ways” bullshit.
If “god” so loved his little children, why would he do this?
NOTE: The grandfather died after a long, painful, prayer filled bout with colon cancer.
#105, Cow-Paddy, Ignorant Shit Talking Sociopath, Retired Mall Rent-A-Cop, Pretend Constitutional Scholar, Fake California Labor Law Expert, Pseudo Military Historian, Phony Climate Scientist, Leading Troll Extraordinare, Asstrologist, and President of the “I Hate America Club”
# 104 BubbaRay said, “Stick that Three Particle W state secure system where it belongs.”
I’m sorry I communicated above your education level. Your response is typical of someone with a low IQ and reading comprehension level.
While it is not my place to argue for someone else, I will answer this as an observer.
You are an idiot that took some headline you don’t have an effen clue about and now want to have a verbal joust with someone you aren’t the equal of shining his shoes.
#108, ‘tempt,
If sin (right and wrong) didn’t exist then you would have a point. But since sin does exist it must be factored into the big picture.
Sin is only what the thumpers think is wrong. Our moral conscience is what drives normal people into doing what is right or wrong.
Sinners will advocate the death penalty more while normal people will tend to value the life, as flawed a life as that may be. (a generalization)
Sinners will preach self responsibility while normal people will try to find some way to get that person the medical help they need.
Sinners will listen to sermons where their deity said we should rest on the seventh day before they rush out to be served the breakfast special in the local choke and puke.
Sinners will tell you that Darwin is wrong while normal people will continue to find, not the flaws, but the corrections.
#113, Alphie,
… He will make it up to us, in the name of Jesus, when we once again are in Eden.
Eden is just a few miles down the road from where I live. Not a very big place, how many people were you proposing to bring? Because the village is all septic system, they would need to bring in those Port-A-Potties if there are more than a few people coming.
But you brought up a good point. No, not the ones on your head.
Why would your “god” allow his only son to be tortured and die alone, a painful death? If it is in his power to create the world then it is in his power to heal the errors he made instead of sacrificing his son to make his point. That sounds just plain self serving. Is “god” a Leibertarian too?
Going back to my niece. She almost died at birth. For the first few months, long before she developed a conscience, she was at death’s door. Are you suggesting “god” is allowing her to live so that he might torture her?
Prayer didn’t make her any better. All those countless hours when their church would remain asking “god” to do something did nothing except keep those losers off the streets.
It was the good Doctors at the Children’s Hospital that fixed her. They kept her alive until her body was strong enough to withstand the rigors of the operations. All the pediatric orthopedic and neurologists made her whole. The nurses that did what they could to keep her comfortable.
If “god” loved her why would he make her suffer? Are you trying to say that “god” makes us suffer because he loves us? Like the guy that beats his wife because he loves her?
Alfred1, please answer Mr. Fusion’s answer without referring to a childish fairy tale with absolutely no basis in reality.
Oh wait, I guess that rules out the entire Bible.
Whoops, make that please answer Mr. Fusion’s “question”…
#113, Alphie,
In Eden there was no birth defects or disease…Adam and Eve rebelled and were kicked out of Eden…
Just so you know that I know, that isn’t exactly right.
Old Jeb, over there in Eden, well, he does have that sixth finger on his left hand. And right after the Christmas break, well, they closed the school because they had a bad lice problem, but we’re not supposed to know about that.
Doctor Johnson might be the only physician in town (or village) and apparently he is quite busy. Either he is servicing a lot of wimin folk or they are all jes droppin’ in to say hi. By appointment.
Yup, no health problems in that town (village).
Did I mention Seth’s enlarged prostrate? Or Aunt Myrtle’s fiberous growths that made her get a hersterectumy? It used to be called a hysterectomy but she never married so it is a hers.
#96
Thank you. Even in heated discourse there are occasions of agreement. I generally consider myself fiscally conservative and socially liberal which would explain the occasional overlap in sentiment.
#113
> In Eden there was no birth defects or disease
Of course there were no birth defects in the myth of Eden; there were no births!
If either Adam or Eve had a defect or sickness, how would they know? What would their frame of reference be as the first and only humans?
Clearly, no one could have written about the Eden myth with first hand knowledge (unless Adam or Eve wrote it down) which means it was theoretically told, by your deity, via divine inspiration to someone many years later. Given that, do you think the architect would have mentioned his gaffs were they to exist? For all we know, Adam was created with three legs and one eyeball and your deity quietly “fixed” those problems after the fact. ;->
fpp2002, don’t bother. Alfred1 wakes up every morning and says “Thank God It’s Doomsday!”
#88 I was commenting on this from the article:
“More than ever before, people are just making up their own stories of who they are. They say, ‘I’m everything. I’m nothing. I believe in myself,’ ” says Barry Kosmin, survey co-author.
Just wondering if Nihilism is becoming more popular in the US.
Well… that was fun.
Alphredi, just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean there’s a god behind it.
Thanks, Mr. Fusion. Unfortunately, when it’s about the Paddy-No header, you left out intelligent designer, cyber eggspert and telco. wanna-be board member.
References upon request? Har!
We’ll get into quantum entanglement as soon as we can discuss this intelligently.
#114, Alfred1, Does this mean that it’s time to give up on reality?
“… He will make it up to us, in the name of Jesus, when we once again are in Eden.
“Eden is just a few miles down the road from where I live. Not a very big place,”
There are lots of places named Eden, but none of them have any direct correction with gods. Especially magical gods dreamed up by bored shepherds in the Middle East. Yes, those stories were dreamed up by sheep and goat herders, and were fairy stories told to their children. That was a long time ago before scientists figured how the world works and, for that matter, how our Universe works. A lot of thought and experimentation went into this, but damn few fairy stories.
Look to the Bible as source for how to conduct your life ethically if you want to, Alfie, but it’s a lousy source for scientific information. Try reality instead for answers to how the world actually works.
Cool, lots of new folks that will agree to live under Sharia law when it comes here.
#126
First, it does not actually say that Adam and Eve “multiplied.” It merely states that they were directed to multiply. Second, if they did multiply what happened to their offspring that were created while in Eden? How many children did they have before being evicted? What were their names? I see nothing in the Bible that states that they actually procreated prior to eviction. Cain was born after they were sent out of Eden. Thus, how can you possibly make any claim about birth defects if there is no evidence of births?
130,
Adam and eve had 8 kids.
131,
In the end, we are not the sons and daughters of adam..Moses is closer to the truth.
Another strange fact is that God kicked adam and eve out AFTER they ate from the tree of knowledge, and learned of their Nakedness..
Sounds like God was into WATCHING..
Barry Kosmin, survey co-author. sounds a might bias in his comment. Perhaps an atheist shouldn’t be the one running such a survey, or it shouldn’t even be taken seriously in the first place. While we’re at it, why not have the American Nazi party conduct a survey of those who think our involvement with Israel has been a good thing or a bad thing? I can’t imagine their bias tampering with the results. Can you?
Intelligent design is off in an obscure corner, left to be forgotten. Whether we can understand and model (with mathematics) the Universe, is debatable by some. Some believe we can, others not. The infinities in QM and GTR theories don’t cancel. The theories (to date) are not reconcilable. But remarkable progress has been made to date, and once reconciled, perhaps the GUT (Grand Unified Theory) will explain most of the Universe.
Holographic theories, brane theories, multiverse theories and string theories aren’t even theories in the strict definition. They postulate no experiments which can prove / disprove them. They make no predictions. They are thought exercises.
I’ll put my money on GTR and QM. They work, day in and out, and have worked and will continue to work. We need energies that we can’t yet produce to show them to be reconciled. C’mon CERN and the Large Hadron Collider!
There are millions of hours expended each year attempting to reconcile the theories of GTR and QM. We’re not that far off from the solution.
Bobbo, Mr. Fusion, QB, your turn.
BubbaRay, I’m not sure about the Grand Unified Theory except that even if that particular pursuit is a dead end then it is wholly worthwhile. Growing beyond ourselves, even for a moment, is why we’re alive. I’ll follow your link and perhaps I’ll grow a little too.
As for Alfred1 and his obsession with death and judgement, I could care less. Even for a Christian it is unusually negative and devoid of hope. However men died on beaches so he could have his metaphysical nihilism.
Is there a God? Who can know so it’s simply a matter of speculation. But I do know one thing: there is no God who is going to forgive me, only my fellow man. Therefore, I must treat people right the first time. Nothing else. And that gives me hope.
Alfred1, that was very silly wasn’t it? Don’t worry, I forgive you.
Bubba–as you painfully know, I’m not a scientist. Thankfully, other pursuits give me pleasure so that I can avoid the consequences of not having the brain “power” or “characteristic” to approach science, at least those science endeavors requiring math or a reformulation of time, space, and matter?
And religion. I don’t understand it either. Every thing I might understand about it is only a reason to reject it. Anti-theism.
It comes down to pragmatism and Bubba I enjoyed your application of that reality to your review. If “something” cannot predict, cannot be used, then it may be a thought experiment, a warm and cozy thought, or a religious comfort===but it is not practicable.
Pragmatism–the only needed tool of a good philistine.
Alfredo–I thought Adam and Eve got kicked out of the Garden before they multiplied? Making Gods commandment there a bit of bait and switch?
No?
Bubba Ray,
After some minor thought I’ll take a stab. I am not physicist, mathematician, or astrologist so please keep in mind the amateurishness of this post.
The universe is too unknown to us and until we have the ability to leave this rock it will remain so. Therefore whether it is holographic, multi-dimensional, or curved is irrelevant. Whether we need to see past the event horizon is unknown and I don’t think it would add much to our knowledge even if we could.
In my uneducated opinion, making the math fit the theory is only useful if we can make the theory fit us. Somewhere I am sure that someone can mathematically prove that black and white are the same thing.
My own belief (thought for discussion ?) is that all the universe collapsed into one black hole. The black hole eventually exploded with a very quiet big bang. All the matter, visible and invisible (dark) eventually coalesced into galaxies that we see today, each forming a black hole in its center.
The matter in these galaxies in turn coalesced into stars and planets. The galaxies will continue to collide and enlarge themselves while feeding their black holes in each center. Eventually all the matter will again have collected into a black hole, explode again, and repeat this cycle.
As a variation, the universe does not need to collect the entire measure of matter into a black hole. It could possibly be that only a relative few galaxies need to feed a black hole before it explodes all the while leaving other galaxies alone or to be blasted by the blast.
Yes the universe is filled with echoes from the bag bang. There are also random dust clouds still coalescing. But when you are as big as the universe, time and space are irrelevant. AND, it is that size, emptiness, timelessness, and unfathomable depths that can make astronomy into a near reason for religion. It is because the human brain can not comprehend “infinity” that we are awed.
Oh, Alfred1, you crack me up.
“If one takes the Bible as the standard, which is what they tried to live by, it is obvious there was less theft, murder and sexual immorality as a percentage of the population.”
Oh, it’s obvious is it? Please provide your statistics that support your pull-this-idea-out-of-my-ass theory.
“That the church can be faulted for becoming corrupt, deviating from Christ’s teachings, is correct…to say the populace under their control, were as amoral as wife swapping, abortion prone, sodomites (etc) of today, is patently absurd.”
Again, you’ve made a statement without a shred of evidence to back it up, that people were moral back then, and not now.
But then again, I guess you don’t demand a lot of evidence to believe all the myth in the bible, do you?
Answer me this, if people are so immoral without the bible, tell me why certain countries (Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Japan, among others) which have a very high percentage of atheists, have some of the highest standards of living in the world?
Oh, dear Alfraidie. You give a guy so many openings to argue it’s hard to keep track expecially when this thread has gotten so long. Lets see:
– no, it’s god with a lower case g since you’re outnumbered – so many Hindus – so few Christians
– Moses would not show God as incompetent? Oh, please. He had two people to watch over and he didn’t notice them eating off his most precious tree? Maybe not incompetent but certainly less than omniscient.
– In #125 you seem to equate birth defects with free will. Wow! And again, Wow!! A god that punishes unborn kids ’cause their Mom hates spinach but likes bourbon. No wonder the bible says his love is exceeded only by his mercy. And, before you can tell me about a capital B, I’ll just say there are so many versions of bibles that lower case is adequate.
Oh, hell. There are so many more but this thread must be running low on interest by now. Bye-bye.
I can’t help but wonder how much of our current economic crisis will get blamed on America’s declining faith in a god. After all, any pastor worth his salt will tell believers that God wants them to prosper, especially if they do his will and contribute to church finances. Any recession or depression is probably the outpouring of God’s wrath upon the land. We will be very lucky if it isn’t followed by a few plagues, possibly involving frogs or locusts.
There’s an old saying (fallacious though it may be) that we humans only use about 10% of our brains. Religious people have managed to pare that down even further to about 7 or 8%.
#145, Gary,
Rest assured, there was more than one pastor that said it was “god’s” will the Indianapolis Colts did not win the Superbowl this year.
The part I don’t understand is why thumpers insist upon praying for their “god” to heal someone that that “god” decided to make sick in the first place.
#131
Actually, my argument is quite sound. In the very next chapter, after expulsion, quite a few verses are spent telling us of Eve’s first born child Cain. The first born child of a middle-eastern family is a huge event especially if that child is male especially if the father and mother are the progenitors of all of humanity. Thus, the only logical conclusion by there being no mention of children while in the garden but quite a bit of discussion of those children after expulsion, is that there were none. Furthermore, we are told that only Adam and Eve are sent out of Eden. There is no mention of any other offspring also being sent out of Eden with Adam and Eve.
> The writer (Moses) would
> not show God as irrelevant,
> or incompetent, therefore your
> interpretation must
> be considered eisegesis.
You went off the deep end here. All that the author of the myth (who knows for sure if it really was a person named Moses) is stating is that your deity provided a directive to multiply. Since no time period is given, it may have been the day after your deity’s directive that Eve gave the apple to Adam.
Simply put there is no way, even using your own scripture as a basis, to make any sort of claim about the quality of births in the garden of Eden as your own myth provides ZERO evidence that any occurred. You are trying interpret the directive to procreate as successful procreation to fit your own preconceived idea of perfection.
I can easily show your deity to be incompetent if you wish however that is OT at the moment.
#130
All of Eve’s children are born after expulsion from Eden.
111 Mr. Fusion
Here’s how some bible-thumpers might answer:
Revelation, chapter 12 tells that the serpent was Satan and gives further information about the war between Christ and Satan. Why does God permit the innocent to suffer, especially children? We don’t have all the answers, but to put it bluntly, that’s the way war is.
That’s about all I’ll say about that because, frankly, I have no idea what I am talking about here.
RBG