Around the middle of November 2007 I bought a laptop directly from HP, the Pavilion DV9590ea model. At the time I thought I was getting quite a deal, especially since I used an online coupon to get a discount, paying around £1,100, for a laptop with a 2.2 Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo processor and 8600GS Nvidia video card. The laptop appeared solid, except that sometimes the video card would reset itself for no reason I could determine, a situation that I mistakenly attributed to a bad Vista video driver (Google ‘nvlddmkm error’ to see what I mean).
My Vista experience, apart from those resets, was quite solid, without any BSOD making an appearance unless I did something quite out of the ordinary, such as installing software not supported for Vista.
I considered the laptop to be the most powerful and stable PC that I ever owned, allowing me to do almost anything I wanted, from editing simple videos, HD media playback, terrestrial digital TV recording and playback, flawless wireless connectivity, acceptable gaming performance and many other functions. All seemed to work well, except for the occasional and inexplicable video driver reset.
As an avid reader of technology news websites, I eventually came across a story from The Enquirer, and as you will be able to see, it was quite dreadful, but I finally got an answer to my video card reset issue:
All Nvidia G84 and G86s are bad – The Enquirer: THE BURNING QUESTION on everyone’s mind is what Nvidia parts are failing in the field? …
The short story is that all the G84 and G86 parts are bad. Period. No exceptions. All of them, mobile and desktop, use the exact same ASIC, so expect them to go south in inordinate numbers as well.
Multiple analysts also told us that NV specifically told them that this problem is confined only to HP. I wonder why Dell is having failures in huge numbers for their XPS lines and replacing them with ATI parts? Why is Asus having similar problems? Go check the message boards, any notebooks that came with G84s and G86s have boards filled with dead machine problems.
If you look at the HP page, the prophylactic fix they offer is to more or less run the fan all the time. Once again, for the non-engineers out there, fan running eats a lot of power, so this destroys the battery life of notebooks.
And so it happened, the HP Update application included with my laptop eventually upgraded the BIOS, changing it to have the fan run continuously when the laptop was put under any type of stress. HP has offered an ‘Limited Warranty Service Enhancement’ for many notebooks affected by this issue, however, my model is not covered. It seems that the issue is only being partially acknowledged by Hewlett Packard, with the company offering this ‘Service Enhancement’ to AMD based laptops, according to the experiences of many individuals on the HP forums.
The issue with the NVIDIA video cards seems to be related to its ‘GPU solder joints’:
Nvidia GPU solder joints at a disadvantage over ATI, scientist says – TGdaily.com: A tiny material issue in Nvidia’s GPUs has cost Nvidia $200 million so far: The problem boils down to the solder bump material, in Nvidia’s case high-lead that was used in all of the firm’s GPUs that were produced until late July , and we still do not know how serious the issue really is. According to our sources, Nvidia has switched to eutectic solder bumps in recent weeks and there is now a new, apparently independent research report, that claims that eutectic solder bumps, which are used for example by AMD’s ATI unit, may live much longer than high-lead versions. Of course, switching to eutectic isn’t the entire solution, as the material has a much lower melting point than high-lead.
Now I’m faced with a situation where I have to send my laptop to HP since the video card finally failed on me. I was playing Red Alert 3 when the laptop completely froze on me, with the audio stuck in a loop. Ctrl-Alt-Delete would not work, forcing me to reset. I fired up the game again to see if it was just a random issue, but it happened again, however, this time after resetting the computer I had no video signal on the display. The LCD was on, but the screen was completely dark. My video card had finally died, a year and two months after I purchased my unit (yes, the warranty expired).
This is a very difficult situation. A repaired laptop would still have a defective NVIDIA video card. This puts any person affected by this situation in a position where no matter what you do (according to the information available), the hardware is guaranteed to fail. Looking at what HP has to offer, you see no ATI based laptop products (except for some old models of the HDX line). You have to go to Dell’s Studio 17 to find a product with comparable features that uses an ATI video card. It is difficult to conceive that a company like HP would do something like this, but the again, this is the same company that spied on its on executives and reporters.
I will keep updating this post as I go through the process of sending my notebook to get it ‘repaired’.
Other relevant links:
The Inquirer reports that the issues extend to the G92-G94 video processor lines
When they Alu iMacs first came out last year, there was a big problem with some of the Radeon 2600HD based models completely freezing (screen would freeze, everything else was still running) that was finally attributed to the brand of VRAM being used on the problematic computers, and a firmware update was eventually pushed as a fix. At least in this case it was repairable through software, but nonetheless it’s always interesting to see how seemingly small things can wreak such havoc.
What a shame.
Until Fiona, all the CEO’s at HP were engineers. Carly’s undergrad degree was in medieval history and philosophy. The company started its slide with her.
Hurd also has no engineering experience…
These video chips are way undercooled in laptops. Too much heat cycles. Nvidia needs to do something about it. They will probably not man up until a class action lawsuit forces them too. Apple has done the same, so has Dell.
But they are at the mercy of the chip manufacture Nvidia. I know Dell for a while was upgrading Bios to keep fans going longer for better heat control. But of course this affects battery life. This is the main reason I continue to use Intel video. I know its not a fast chip, but its reliable.
So really, a problem that has always existed with notbook computers, continues to exist. These computers (all-in-one computers suffer from this as well btw) don’t last that long.
It is just that people are just now noticing it because the industry is finally mature.
Really, you got a year out of your notebook, that is pretty good, generally they do not last that long.
So don’t buy HP and don’t by Nvidia. When both companies watch their sales plummet, they will change their policies. HP should switch to a more reliable graphics card manufacturer, and Nvidia should offer free repairs to all affected users.
#5, Yes, I agree, but the fact is that HP is being very selective in this regard. Reading the HP forums you can see cases where the company dragged the issue for months to ensure that people would be out of their warranty, thus they would have to pay for repairs.
Other people have been successful by talking directly with case managers.
I have a dv9000t with a nVidia 7600gt that has no video lockup issues, but the fan runs mostly continuously under heavy gaming. (BTW, Vista Ultimate — the version that NEVER bsod’s)
#3, Apple’s usual solution (as far as I’ve experienced) is to downclock the chips.
#5,
Whats the problem??? His computer was warrantied for a year, and it lasted a year. If you want a computer to last three years, you buy a computer that has a three year warranty.
If you get a chance sometime, look at and compare the constuction of HP’s bottom of the line $500 computer with a year long warranty, then look at the construction of their business computers with the three year warranty.
As for the examiner article… Welcome to the age the internet… Journalism on the internet amounts to writing link bait flame fest articles, because those get hits, and generate income on the pay per view advertising schemes.
LOL, if you want a computer that will last 5+ years look at the HP integrity line of computers. Ouch those prices!
# 7 Paul said, (BTW, Vista Ultimate — the version that NEVER bsod’s)
Correction, the ONLY version that doesn’t bsod.
Cooling problems are not new. I have an older Toshiba laptop which I got on sale only to find out that if you ran the system full bore for more than 5 minutes, the CPU would overheat first causing erratic operation and then either crashing or shutting down.
This was also a pure hardware problem addressed by a bios update which turned the fan on high except when absolutely idle. The fix also didn’t work as the problem persisted.
So I voided the warranty and fixed it myself by increasing the cooling ability of the CPU heat sink. I disassembled the laptop, removed the CPU heat sink, put a chip shim over the CPU to increase the heat transfer surface area, applied the proper amount of Arctic Cool paste on all heat conductive surfaces, and drilled two additional cooling holes in the case on the opposite side of the airflow across the CPU heat sink to insure enough air was flowing across the heat sink without backing up.
Never had another problem since.
What I got out of this was:
In the old days computers and the like were designed to operate at better than 130% of full load. Power supplies rated at 300 watts could take nearly 400 without dying. CPU fans rated at removing 200 watts would work at 270, etc.
But not anymore. To cut corners all parts are designed to operate up to the stated specs for a brief period of time, and only 90% of full load continuously.
Hence massive product failures.
Cooling problems are not new. I have an older Toshiba laptop which I got on sale only to find out that if you ran the system full bore for more than 5 minutes, the CPU would overheat first causing erratic operation and then either crashing or shutting down.
This was also a pure hardware problem addressed by a bios update which turned the fan on high except when absolutely idle. The fix also didn’t work as the problem persisted.
So I voided the warranty and fixed it myself by increasing the cooling ability of the CPU heat sink. I disassembled the laptop, removed the CPU heat sink, put a chip shim over the CPU to increase the heat transfer surface area, applied the proper amount of Arctic Cool paste on all heat conductive surfaces, and drilled two additional cooling holes in the case on the opposite side of the airflow across the CPU heat sink to insure enough air was flowing across the heat sink without backing up.
Never had another problem since.
What I got out of this was:
In the old days computers and the like were designed to operate at better than 130% of full load. Power supplies rated at 300 watts could take nearly 400 without dying. CPU fans rated at removing 200 watts would work at 270, etc.
But not anymore. To cut corners all parts are designed to operate up to the stated specs for a brief period of time, and only 90% of full load continuously.
Hence massive product failures.
I have only experienced and heard of horror stories dealing with HP computers. Whenever I think of HP I think of printers and buy those without much worry. Their line of desktops and laptops on the other hand, have a lot to be desired.
No surprise here, As an HP Authorized Service Provider HP Support and Lame response to this issue is pretty much par for the course.
Their printers have gone downhill too. Especially the crappy Color Laserjets that just cobbled together plastic nightmares. Yeah, I fix those too.
#5 Not sure who you got your box from that only lasts a year.
I bought a laptop from Dell in 1998, Inspiron 7000. I was still runing it every day until soft cut of support 2 years ago. The only other problem was you needed to upgrade to media player 9/10 to watch vids and I did not have enough Ramm. But it still works for going out on the web/email. The funny thing is that I bought a new laptop from Dell last year and the sound card in the old 1998 box sounds better. So I still use it for music.
#10. I use several versions Vista on different computers and haven’t had a BSOD since the Beta. Don’t have a clue to what your problem is.
# 16 McCullough said, “I use several versions Vista on different computers and haven’t had a BSOD since the Beta. Don’t have a clue to what your problem is.”
Don’t know. I’ve used 3 different machines (not ultimate) and on 2 of them I’ve been able freeze (unrecoverable without reboot) just by using Windows mail.
Most laptops today are drastically overfeatured and built like crap. When every place that sells laptops also has a variety of aftermarket products in order to stop them from baking you should know that most of them are simply built badly.
What to do? Buy a Netbook with an SSD and keep a home PC for the heavy duty stuff. Or, if you must have the features, and I highly doubt that you do, buy a Panasonic, because they build ones that are good and charge accordingly. Anything else is asking for trouble.
My friend had the same problem…
#15,
I have maintained notebook computers for a small army of salespeople. Laptops last right up until the 2nd or third time they are dropped. In that your computer still has a funtioning backlight in the screen tells me that computer was stored safely away for many years.
I have an old Dell something or other (486-100) that runs some ancient version of slackware linux. It still works because I never use it. Thats what… 15 years old?
#18,
They are made so cheaply because people who use laptop computers for a living recognize that they last until they are dropped, sat on, or levered into their bag and something breaks the screen.
I think ssd’s will solve the problems of dropping running notebooks, at least you wont lose all your data. But still there are lots of parts to lever off and break in a dropped laptop. Apple probably has done the best to ruggadize the notebooks with their brick design, but they still are not saying its safe to drop em. Also, this is why the ruggedized computers have never taken off… Even those computers break when you drop em.
Gasparrini,
You are describing a laptop that was dropped, or allowed to overheat. Folling your provided links, there are lots of people who both admit to dropping their laptop and having this problem(one lady describes cat hair and bed use!). If you are in one of the covered devices they have extended the warranty to two years.
I think the solution is for laptop companies to start putting those Drop-n-tell, devices in the notebook computers. They could probably put one in for heat as well.
The all-in-one computers all suffer from the short lifetime as well.
#20 I think that SSDs will go a long way to solving the heat issues.
HP has been screwing users for years… I’ve never been impressed by any of their consumer computer gear.
My HP laptop (late 2007, dual core, nVidia, Vista, 2GB) will stutter if I play a DVD in full screen. If I dare play a video file in full screen for more than 30 seconds it will crash.
Don’t you have any consumer protection laws in your country? How can HP get away with charging you for repairs to a product that only lasts 1 year and 2 months??
In New Zealand the Consumer Protection Act requires that products last a reasonable time before failing. If they don’t fix it for free, a claim in the Disputes Tribunal (a small claims court which is lawyer-free) would soon force them to do it.
(However if you bought your laptop for business purposes the Consumer Protection Act does not apply).
My Pavilion came with ATI (mobility x700). It’s over 3 years old and still the best machine I’ve ever had. And still faster than my wife’s new Macbook!
HP, I know the various product of HP. But I don’t know about Quality. I am sorry.
#24.
Close, but I think you mean the Consumer Guarantees Act (1993)…
http://consumeraffairs.govt.nz/consumerinfo/cga/index.html
Lots of IBM 600, 600E, and 600X Thinkpads are still in use (and with great keyboards) after a decade. IMHO, hotter processors (heat kills electronics) and bigger screens (thin machines flex more) make such workhorses a tough act to follow.
In Australia we have a two warranties, the manufacturer’s (12 months etc) and the implied warranty.
A laptop would be expected to last at least 3 years. If an obvious defect happens in that time they are required to fix it free.
I got a new engine on my 5 year old Kia Carnival that would have cost me more than the car was worth.
This is another example of the faulty logic of worshipping the dollar over everything else.
Just bought an hp dv5t with GeForce 9200 GS. It’s still within return policy. Should I return it?