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Republicans on Wednesday delayed a confirmation vote on attorney general nominee Eric Holder, some demanding assurances he would not prosecute U.S. agents for torture if they thought their methods were in compliance with the law…
With questions about torture and other matters, Republicans invoked their right to delay for one week the Senate Judiciary Committee’s vote on Holder, who had already been expected to endure one of the rockier confirmation processes in President Barack Obama’s new cabinet.
Holder still appears virtually certain to eventually win confirmation by the full Senate…
During his confirmation hearing before the Judiciary Committee last week, Holder broke with the Bush administration and said waterboarding, an interrogation technique that involves simulated drowning, was torture and thus illegal.
Asked if he would prosecute for torture, Holder said “no one is above the law.” But he also quoted Obama about the need to move ahead…
Holder said he would ensure that interrogations complied with treaty obligations and were effective. He pledged to review all Justice Department legal opinions on the matter.
I don’t recall Republicans defending the “Good Germans” who only “followed orders” while working in concentration camps.
# 29 Mr. Fusion said, “Torture has been a crime for many years. ”
Umm, the question at hand is “what is defined as torture”?
Please try to keep up with the thread…
# 30 bobbo said, “the Courts ruling would be based on prior existing law that would outlaw torture from BEFORE, DURING, AND AFTER,”
As long as the law then existing, defined water boarding as torture you’re correct.
Otherwise you may be SOL.
“I don’t recall Republicans defending the “Good Germans” who only “followed orders” while working in concentration camps.”
Well, that was before they were the ‘Good Germans’. Though I’d say the better comparison would be to the POW camps that the Germans maintained, where they committed acts of torture in some hope of gaining actionable intelligence. A good number of the people involved in that were hung until dead after being convicted of war crimes.
As to those that think that torture has only now been made illegal, I suggest you look at the war crimes act of 1996, the Geneva conventions, the UCMJ, which all predate this week by a long, long time. Further, it’s worth remembering that one of the enduring legacies of George Washington was his strict rule against mistreatment of detainees by the US army, a rule bravely codified even as the British were torturing and starving whole ships full of innocent people off the coast. This is a core value of America, and abandoning it out of fear of terror ranks as one of the greatest acts of cowardice in human history.
Though, it seems that the basic misunderstanding lies in that some of you think that the Executive writes, interperets and executes the law. Such an executive is not called a President or a Prime Minister; it is called a King or an Emperor.
How the hell does one go about deciding how much torture is too much, or what methods of torture are OK? I mean there’s waterboarding light – lot’s of coughing and vomiting and then there’s waterboarding heavy – edge of death, suction to get water out of lungs, defib for the heart, and oxygen to revive. I say err on the side of caution and just not do it. Now whether or not to go for those who practiced this in the past, that’s a conundrum. If we go and prosecute all the misdeeds during the Bush regieme, we might get distracted from the task at hand, that is getting the country back on it’s feet. First things first.
#33–Paddy==thats the whole point. EVERYBODY understood that waterboarding was torture. Only when the Bush BS machine got rolling was there any artificial created doubt with the stenography pool going along with it.
Some japanese camp commanders where prosecuted and executed for waterboarding US prisoners.
Its not like the good fun hazing rituals or the survival training exposure to the technique.
Why to believe waterboarding is not torture, you’d be such a sheeple to likewise think that tax cuts for the rich were good for the economy and trickled down to all the rest of us.
American Electorate: confused as to what torture, stupidity, and lies actually are===see Bushes lips move.
# 36 bobbo said, “thats the whole point. EVERYBODY understood that waterboarding was torture.”
No, you missed the point. Public opinion isn’t law. What do the relevant statues define as torture? Do you know?
#35–amarangadingdong: “The President has to be able to do more than one thing at a time.” Thus spake Obama.
#37–Paddy O-Dumbshit==EVERYBODY relevant to the point of this discussion==in this case, the history of court decisions. REf==those executed Japanese dudes.
And the thought that the classic non-lethal tortures such as the ‘water cure’ (as the Spanish Inquisition called it), beatings, hot and cold chambers, sensory deprivation, and weeks without sleep are not torture is laughable, and hardly worth confronting were it not for the deep delusions that some people seem to have acquired from their leaders.
They should hold up Holder’s nomination until he promises to continue going after the city of Gary for its quota hiring, and to uphold the Civil Rights Act and go after all cases of illegal affirmative action.
#39 I’m not arguing pro or con on whether it is torture. Simply that it must be established by law to be torture. I only found one case in US court where it was tangentially addressed. A Texas case earlier in the 20th century. That one isn’t specific enough for what we’re talking about though…
How about they get an agreement that he will only prosecute any torturers after he prosecutes Geithner for tax evasion?
PaddyO, I think the whole point is that the President authorized agents to go beyond the Geneva Conventions. It’s clear that these people were not eligible for Geneva protections. Then the issue is whether Congress’ law even applies to these prisoners, as the President is Commander In Chief. He could certainly have ordered an execution.
http://npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#World_War_II
I typed (waterboarding) into my google toolbar and it added history. The above are the first two sites.
First says that Japanese dude wasn’t executed–just jailed. Funny that the wiki flat out says it is torture===must be liberal rot?
#44–Mikey==stop playing with Paddy’s head. He’s dumb enough to believe you.
#44 – All factual legal points.
Yes, many of those we caught could have legally been executed without a US based trial under existing law. Oddly, torture may not have been legal.
More evidence of media bias.
Here’s the Wash Post headline
Republicans Obstruct Holder’s Path to Justice Department
8 years ago:
Vote On Ashcroft Is Delayed A Week; Democrats Cite Need for More Review
Plus did Democrats allow so many Cabinet members to be confirmed in one day?
#44–SEE Mickey!!!! I tried to warn you.
# 45 bobbo said, “Funny that the wiki flat out says it is torture”
Yeah, imagine if we used random posting from the internet as case law. ROFL
#50–Paddy==I don’t know how you maintain your good humor. Lifetime of practice I suppose.
Just for the heck of it: you do recognize you are confusing what you can “get away with” on the field of battle with “what is legal.” I doubt this as you slop over even farther into declaring that the President can “order” it. Yes, he can order it and if he was that blatant, he might even get prosecuted for it–att gen opinion or not.
Where did you get this loopy idea?
What does “We are a nation of laws” even “actually” mean to you?
Do you know why the Nazi’s were wrong to think they could get off by “just following orders?”
You and your fellow followers are in a very dark place.
# 51 bobbo said, “declaring that the President can “order” it. Yes, he can order it and if he was that blatant,”
Umm, I never said the President could or should order something that is illegal.
Care to point out the post where I said that? Or, are you being a troll again?
PaddyO, I think bobbo is referring to the ordering of executions.
Bobbo, these aren’t US citizens that are being dealt with. I think it is reasonable to think that the President has certain wartime powers, and the attorney general’s opinion is irrelevant.
#54–Mike==thanks, ordering executions==or whatever.
I agree on certain issues the “status” of these detainees, or unlawful combatants ((but not prisoners or soldiers)) will be quite relevant. I also agree the President has war time powers AND certain powers as Commander in Chief. Authorizing Torture is not one of them. Calling torture “enhanced interrogation techniques” is fine, but doesn’t change the law at all.
Sure confuses a lot of boobs though.
So booboo. Since you decided to lie about what I said, you are a TROLL.
Sure confuses a lot of boobs though.
Followers are easily deceived. They’re told what to believe, and they do it.
So bobbo, do you think the President can order executions at Guantanamo?
Phuck did this break down into stupidity.
Cow-Paddy, get a life.
Lyin’ Mike, just shut the eff up.
You guys just like to see your words on the internetwebtubies.
#58 MikeN (And really, all his retarded buddies too.)
First off, I don’t care if they’re Iraqi citizens or Canadian citizens or even buddies with Mullah Omar or not! They are -HUMANS- and by the Declaration of Independence we as a nation declared that they deserve the “UNALIENABLE RIGHT” to “LIFE, LIBERTY, and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS”. Torture very clearly abrogates those rights. Comments like “They Arent US Citizens, so what the fuck ever, zap em etc.” just make us look retarded on the world stage.
Secondly. Just because the AG gives the President carte blanche by announcing to the world that he can damn near drown people and there will be no prosecutions forthcoming DOES NOT make it legal! Waterboarding was considered an illegal activity before GWB and is considered an illegal activity today. The lack of an AG’s office with the balls to speak truth to power does not limit the new AG’s ability to try criminals for their criminal activity. There was no legislation introduced in this period of time that granted the president authority to abrogate the illegality of waterboarding, Q.E.D it was STILL ILLEGAL when the CIA operatives employed it at Gitmo.
Thirdly, it is rather well documented in case law that “i’m just following orders” is not an acceptable defense. Military officers have a responsibility to the United States of America to disregard any orders that on a prima facie basis violate the laws of the land, the laws of war as set forth in the UCMJ. Since torture is definitively ILLEGAL, following orders to commit this heinous act would, by itself, be regarded as a violation of their responsibilities and legally a crime. In addition, issuing the order would be a crime that would flow all the way up the chain to the giant turd on top!
In summation, MikeN, Paddy-O and anyone who agrees with their standpoint on this issue, are a bunch of ignorant asshats that should be stripped of their citizenship for being to dumb to excersize the perogatives thereof.
# 60 QuackCD said,
I can see that you’ve never posted here before. Or, are you a sock puppet?
#61 – Paddy-O
Not Sockpupetty! Human and unique I am.
Listen, maybe I was a little hot round the collar but I get real worked up when americans get up and make ignorant comments like “We’re not dealing with US Citizens” in a way that sounds like “Who gives a crap about the rest of the world, we’re Ameri-cans! WHOO!”
The logical points still have their merit though.